Author Topic: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2  (Read 773668 times)

Online Herb Schaltegger

Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #980 on: 01/08/2018 05:58 pm »
Recent events have caused me to consider petitioning that the first manned Dragon-2 be named 'CSS John Young'.
Confederate Space Ship?
Presumably “Commercial Spaceship”. That said, “CSS” has a different meaning for Americans who know history so I’d suggest “CSV” (Commercial Space Vessel) or simply “S/V” (Space Vessel, akin to “M/V” used by some seagoing ships).
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Offline ChrisGebhardt

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #981 on: 01/08/2018 06:44 pm »
Cross posting here.  Last Friday I recorded a podcast with "Are We There Yet?".  We talked for an hour about the things coming up in 2018... including Dragon 2 and commercial crew.

http://www.wmfe.org/exciting-year-ahead-for-space-exploration/82019

Offline NX-0

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #982 on: 01/10/2018 12:14 pm »
Article from Space.com
https://www.space.com/39335-commercial-crew-test-launches-begin-2018.html
refers to update by NASA
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/nasa-commercial-crew-program-mission-in-sight-for-2018
"Demo-1 Flight Test: SpaceX is targeting the second quarter of 2018 for its first demonstration mission with Crew Dragon to and from the International Space Station. "

Offline Roy_H

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #983 on: 01/10/2018 01:08 pm »
I don't go to Space.com web site anymore. If you do be careful of registering for comments, read the agreement. Any comments become Space.com's IP. You give up all your rights and IIRC this agreement is binding on your heirs.
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Offline NX-0

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #984 on: 01/10/2018 03:50 pm »
I don't go to Space.com web site anymore. If you do be careful of registering for comments, read the agreement. Any comments become Space.com's IP. You give up all your rights and IIRC this agreement is binding on your heirs.
TY
I did not register. I lurk everywhere. I only speak here. :-)

I thought it interesting that an official NASA update showed no movement in the schedule while there had been indications here that both program schedules were slipping.
My understanding is we will know we are close when we get a crew named. (That would be six months at latest.)

Offline NX-0

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #985 on: 01/11/2018 02:12 pm »
...and a week later, NASA updates it's schedule:
Boeing Orbital Flight Test (uncrewed): August 2018
Boeing Crew Flight Test (crewed): November 2018
SpaceX Demonstration Mission 1 (uncrewed): August 2018
SpaceX Demonstration Mission 2 (crewed): December 2018

https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2018/01/11/nasas-commercial-crew-program-target-test-flight-dates-2/#.Wld4oz5q1_U.twitter

So, 4 visiting vehicles in five months for ISS in addition to Dragon 1, Cygnus, Progress and Soyuz?
Seems a bit crowded...

Offline Beittil

Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #986 on: 01/11/2018 02:16 pm »
I really wonder what happened here that SpaceX's manned flight suddenly falls behind Boeing's flight :X

I somehow doubt that Elon would be cool with it that Boeing gets to steal the show like that :P
« Last Edit: 01/11/2018 02:17 pm by Beittil »

Online abaddon

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #987 on: 01/11/2018 02:56 pm »
Certain posters, if you have read carefully over time, have hinted something like this was likely.

One can look at specific items that probably contributed, one being the requirement that SpaceX recertify with four parachutes instead of the original three.  (Given the Starliner uses three I'm not sure I understand what went on here, personally).

I'm just hoping we get to see the uncrewed flights from both providers this year.  Assuming that happens and no major problems are raised, that'd be a great indicator of progress.

Offline whitelancer64

Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #988 on: 01/11/2018 04:09 pm »
Certain posters, if you have read carefully over time, have hinted something like this was likely.

One can look at specific items that probably contributed, one being the requirement that SpaceX recertify with four parachutes instead of the original three.  (Given the Starliner uses three I'm not sure I understand what went on here, personally).

I'm just hoping we get to see the uncrewed flights from both providers this year.  Assuming that happens and no major problems are raised, that'd be a great indicator of progress.

Cargo Dragon has 3 parachutes.

Dragon v2 uses same parachutes as Cargo Dragon, but Dragon v2 is a heavier spacecraft. Therefore it needs another parachute.

Rather than design a brand new parachute, SpaceX uses 4 of the same one it already had.

It's been 4 parachutes since about 2015. The first drop test with 4 chutes was in January 2016.
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Offline cscott

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #989 on: 01/11/2018 06:19 pm »
There were a long series of Dragon 2 parachute tests, maybe not actually related to the 3->4 swap.

If you'll pardon wild speculation, I'd say they changed the parachutes (for better landing accuracy? For better commonality with fairing recovery parachutes?) around the same time propulsive landing was stripped from Dragon 2.

Online gongora

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #990 on: 01/11/2018 06:37 pm »
There were a long series of Dragon 2 parachute tests, maybe not actually related to the 3->4 swap.

If you'll pardon wild speculation, I'd say they changed the parachutes (for better landing accuracy? For better commonality with fairing recovery parachutes?) around the same time propulsive landing was stripped from Dragon 2.

I wouldn't expect any commonality between the Dragon parachutes and what they're using for fairing recovery, those are two very different applications.  I doubt the parachute change has anything to do with landing accuracy either.  A more likely explanation would be that as they worked through the final design of the capsule and went through various scenarios with NASA it made sense to add another parachute for abort scenarios, more benign touchdowns, failure of a chute, etc.

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #991 on: 01/11/2018 06:49 pm »
I really wonder what happened here that SpaceX's manned flight suddenly falls behind Boeing's flight :X

I somehow doubt that Elon would be cool with it that Boeing gets to steal the show like that :P

No, not Boeing stealing the show. NASA giving the "first" to Boeing. This has been suspected from day 1 of CCtCAP given that NASA ultimately decides when a CCP mission goes to fly.
However, rest assured, a delay of Boeing's Crew Flight Test to 2019 is coming within the next few months.

Offline ClayJar

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #992 on: 01/11/2018 08:37 pm »
...and a week later, NASA updates it's schedule:
Boeing Orbital Flight Test (uncrewed): August 2018
Boeing Crew Flight Test (crewed): November 2018
SpaceX Demonstration Mission 1 (uncrewed): August 2018
SpaceX Demonstration Mission 2 (crewed): December 2018

https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2018/01/11/nasas-commercial-crew-program-target-test-flight-dates-2/#.Wld4oz5q1_U.twitter

So, 4 visiting vehicles in five months for ISS in addition to Dragon 1, Cygnus, Progress and Soyuz?
Seems a bit crowded...

I vaguely recall someone saying regarding ISS scheduling something along the lines that the best way to deconflict two vehicles is to schedule them both for the same day and wait for one to slip.

Postscript:  If both uncrewed flights are in August, couldn't the month later schedule to the SpaceX crewed flight be attributable to SpaceX doing an in-flight abort and Boeing not?  It doesn't necessarily have to be just Powers with particular preferences.
« Last Edit: 01/11/2018 08:40 pm by ClayJar »

Offline dror

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #993 on: 01/11/2018 08:55 pm »
...and a week later, NASA updates it's schedule:
Boeing Orbital Flight Test (uncrewed): August 2018
Boeing Crew Flight Test (crewed): November 2018
SpaceX Demonstration Mission 1 (uncrewed): August 2018
SpaceX Demonstration Mission 2 (crewed): December 2018

https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2018/01/11/nasas-commercial-crew-program-target-test-flight-dates-2/#.Wld4oz5q1_U.twitter

So, 4 visiting vehicles in five months for ISS in addition to Dragon 1, Cygnus, Progress and Soyuz?
Seems a bit crowded...
Can they use the uncrewed flights to deliver consumables to the ISS, to save some room on crs flights?
Space is hard immensely complex and high risk !

Online gongora

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #994 on: 01/11/2018 10:05 pm »
...and a week later, NASA updates it's schedule:
Boeing Orbital Flight Test (uncrewed): August 2018
Boeing Crew Flight Test (crewed): November 2018
SpaceX Demonstration Mission 1 (uncrewed): August 2018
SpaceX Demonstration Mission 2 (crewed): December 2018

https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2018/01/11/nasas-commercial-crew-program-target-test-flight-dates-2/#.Wld4oz5q1_U.twitter

So, 4 visiting vehicles in five months for ISS in addition to Dragon 1, Cygnus, Progress and Soyuz?
Seems a bit crowded...
Can they use the uncrewed flights to deliver consumables to the ISS, to save some room on crs flights?

Small amounts.

Online gongora

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #995 on: 01/12/2018 01:04 am »
The ASAP Annual Report specifically calls out parachutes as one of the biggest program risks:

Quote
While there are large uncertainties around the specific numbers resulting
from the analysis, the primary risk drivers identified are the same for both commercial systems:
• MMOD damage during docked phase (affects overall mission requirement)
• Parachute performance (affects overall mission and ascent/entry requirements)

It also has a discussion of the SpaceX COPV qualification, and mentions they are working on alternative helium tanks (sounds like not COPV) as a backup plan if the COPV redesign has trouble getting through qualification.

Offline Rabidpanda

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #996 on: 01/12/2018 01:37 am »
I really wonder what happened here that SpaceX's manned flight suddenly falls behind Boeing's flight :X

I somehow doubt that Elon would be cool with it that Boeing gets to steal the show like that :P

No, not Boeing stealing the show. NASA giving the "first" to Boeing. This has been suspected from day 1 of CCtCAP given that NASA ultimately decides when a CCP mission goes to fly.
However, rest assured, a delay of Boeing's Crew Flight Test to 2019 is coming within the next few months.

Boeing is a world class aerospace company that employs a lot of really smart, experienced engineers... and so is SpaceX. What they are both trying to do is incredibly hard. When was the last time a new US human spacecraft design was flown?

What incentive could NASA possibly have for manipulating the schedule such that SpaceX is forced to fly after Boeing?

Online docmordrid

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #997 on: 01/12/2018 03:16 am »
Pressure from the congressional Georgia & Colorado (sorry, need to stop here for a second and just say that I have to use stupid words to get my point across. I know that means I must have a weak argument, but that's why I use bad words).s.
« Last Edit: 01/12/2018 03:18 am by docmordrid »
DM

Offline RonM

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #998 on: 01/12/2018 04:07 am »
Pressure from the congressional Georgia & Colorado (sorry, need to stop here for a second and just say that I have to use stupid words to get my point across. I know that means I must have a weak argument, but that's why I use bad words).s.

What does Boeing have to do with Georgia and Colorado? It's Lockheed Martin that's big in those states.

Offline Lar

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #999 on: 01/12/2018 04:29 am »
The ASAP Annual Report specifically calls out parachutes as one of the biggest program risks:

Quote
While there are large uncertainties around the specific numbers resulting
from the analysis, the primary risk drivers identified are the same for both commercial systems:
• MMOD damage during docked phase (affects overall mission requirement)
• Parachute performance (affects overall mission and ascent/entry requirements)

It also has a discussion of the SpaceX COPV qualification, and mentions they are working on alternative helium tanks (sounds like not COPV) as a backup plan if the COPV redesign has trouble getting through qualification.

So why was removing propulsive landing from Dragon (which would have chutes as a backup system only once enough flights were flown) such a good idea again?

Pressure from the congressional Georgia & Colorado (sorry, need to stop here for a second and just say that I have to use stupid words to get my point across. I know that means I must have a weak argument, but that's why I use bad words).s.

and Alabama...

What does Boeing have to do with Georgia and Colorado? It's Lockheed Martin that's big in those states.

What vehicle was it, again, that was *congressionally mandated* to be a backup crew vehicle.. .just in case the plan of record vehicles didn't pan out? Who makes it? I forget[1].

1 - that was sarcasm
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