Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5  (Read 1316036 times)

Offline Emmett Brown

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Hey Shell,
I'm part way through the frustum build (metal is cut) based on the dimensions you suggested..

Quote
For a TE012,  if that's your goal with a direct sidewall injection you would need to build to.

Large diameter   0.280 m
Small diameter   0.160 m
Center Plate to Center Plate 0.2658 m

Do you have a recommended location along the side-wall to locate the magnetron?
(Or multiple locations to try)

Thanks - your advice is appreciated. 
(Most of the tech involved in this project I'm fine with, however, the microwave magic I'm still learning as I go...)

Offline SeeShells

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Hey Shell,
I'm part way through the frustum build (metal is cut) based on the dimensions you suggested..

Quote
For a TE012,  if that's your goal with a direct sidewall injection you would need to build to.

Large diameter   0.280 m
Small diameter   0.160 m
Center Plate to Center Plate 0.2658 m

Do you have a recommended location along the side-wall to locate the magnetron?
(Or multiple locations to try)

Thanks - your advice is appreciated. 
(Most of the tech involved in this project I'm fine with, however, the microwave magic I'm still learning as I go...)

I think Iulian had a good idea running his magnetron into the side wall but I disagree with this directly coupled angled insertion.  http://www.masinaelectrica.com/emdrive-independent-test/

This is not much different than Tagmar's angled approach

If you look at his first drawing on the second page he had it correct as to how to inject the microwaves into the cavity.

If you saved the microwave magnetron you could use this to couple into the drive (see picture). The question is do you still have the guide from the microwave?

Shell


Offline robus

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A fundamental posit of quantum mechanics is that the deterministic initial conditions of a system do not define its evolution.  (As in its actual mass-energy equivalence cannot be predicted simply by knowing the details you mentioned, because energy input into the system is run through what you might call a quantum function, i.e.. f(x)=a, where a is the actual energy state during measurement, x is the initial conditions, and f() describes some behavior. I'm deliberately avoiding probabilistic language because I tend to fall in the camp which views these quantum events as deterministic, specifically determined by pilot wave interference. That's getting too metaphysical for this discussion though, it wouldn't be wrong to think of the quantum interior of the emdrive as following a probabilistic energy evolution).

Long time lurker, first time poster. The combination of your reference to pilot wave theory and Shell's posting of the Brian Greene video were too much to resist. I would be very thrilled if the EM Drive ended up giving strength to the pilot wave theory. And who can watch that Greene video and not think of electrons bobbing around on interfering patterns of pilot waves. There's a beautiful elegance that context and no probabilistic voodoo required.

I know it's out in left field but I couldn't help giving you a thumbs up from one lurker!

Offline rfmwguy

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Hey Shell,
I'm part way through the frustum build (metal is cut) based on the dimensions you suggested..

Quote
For a TE012,  if that's your goal with a direct sidewall injection you would need to build to.

Large diameter   0.280 m
Small diameter   0.160 m
Center Plate to Center Plate 0.2658 m

Do you have a recommended location along the side-wall to locate the magnetron?
(Or multiple locations to try)

Thanks - your advice is appreciated. 
(Most of the tech involved in this project I'm fine with, however, the microwave magic I'm still learning as I go...)

I think Iulian had a good idea running his magnetron into the side wall but I disagree with this directly coupled angled insertion.  http://www.masinaelectrica.com/emdrive-independent-test/

This is not much different than Tagmar's angled approach

If you look at his first drawing on the second page he had it correct as to how to inject the microwaves into the cavity.

If you saved the microwave magnetron you could use this to couple into the drive (see picture). The question is do you still have the guide from the microwave?

Shell


I thought long and hard about duplicating Iulian's insertion point. Doc, MR T and I had many discussions on this. Here are the insertion points I experimented with:

1) Centered on small diameter = null results
2) Off-center on large diameter = null results
3) Centered on large diameter = results per my test report

I avoided side insertion mainly because of copper mesh sidewalls not being as suitable as a solid end plate for mounting either waveguide of mag. Also, I did have concerns about Iulians design sputtering on bottom plate due to proximity of radome. Side insertion (my humble view only) should be waveguide only. Iulian had null results when side insertion point was centered if memory serves me correctly.

I still have some doubts (no evidence however) that waveguide insertion will contain some EM polarity component (horizontal or vertical) that may reduce the effect compared to a non directional (omni) pattern from a radome.

Regardless, this is my speculation only purely based on my experience with horn antennas. A non-circular waveguide will form polarity patterns: http://www.antenna-theory.com/antennas/aperture/horn.php

Offline SeeShells

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Hey Shell,
I'm part way through the frustum build (metal is cut) based on the dimensions you suggested..

Quote
For a TE012,  if that's your goal with a direct sidewall injection you would need to build to.

Large diameter   0.280 m
Small diameter   0.160 m
Center Plate to Center Plate 0.2658 m

Do you have a recommended location along the side-wall to locate the magnetron?
(Or multiple locations to try)

Thanks - your advice is appreciated. 
(Most of the tech involved in this project I'm fine with, however, the microwave magic I'm still learning as I go...)

I think Iulian had a good idea running his magnetron into the side wall but I disagree with this directly coupled angled insertion.  http://www.masinaelectrica.com/emdrive-independent-test/

This is not much different than Tagmar's angled approach

If you look at his first drawing on the second page he had it correct as to how to inject the microwaves into the cavity.

If you saved the microwave magnetron you could use this to couple into the drive (see picture). The question is do you still have the guide from the microwave?

Shell


I thought long and hard about duplicating Iulian's insertion point. Doc, MR T and I had many discussions on this. Here are the insertion points I experimented with:

1) Centered on small diameter = null results
2) Off-center on large diameter = null results
3) Centered on large diameter = results per my test report

I avoided side insertion mainly because of copper mesh sidewalls not being as suitable as a solid end plate for mounting either waveguide of mag. Also, I did have concerns about Iulians design sputtering on bottom plate due to proximity of radome. Side insertion (my humble view only) should be waveguide only. Iulian had null results when side insertion point was centered if memory serves me correctly.

I still have some doubts (no evidence however) that waveguide insertion will contain some EM polarity component (horizontal or vertical) that may reduce the effect compared to a non directional (omni) pattern from a radome.

Regardless, this is my speculation only purely based on my experience with horn antennas. A non-circular waveguide will form polarity patterns: http://www.antenna-theory.com/antennas/aperture/horn.php
Good suggestions.

The metal antenna out of the magnetron of the magnetron is simply a 1/4 wave antenna. Am I right on this?

We did run simulations on a single waveguide insertion into the bottom of the cavity parallel to the large plate and while the pattern for the TE013 wasn't perfect it still showed  a very nice mode generation.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B1XizxEfB23tR2NZaTZpeGE1ODA

I'm not suggesting that the wide section of the magnetron be placed parallel  but vertical orientated just like the picture with the bottom edge of the magnetron wave guide on the bottom outside section of the large plate.

Unlike the simulation where the waveguide (I linked too) was shortened on the bottom that leads to some discontinuity in modes by making the wave guide on the bottom the length of the guide on the waveguide on the magnetron and "filling in" the missing section.

Offline aero

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Hey Shell,
I'm part way through the frustum build (metal is cut) based on the dimensions you suggested..

Quote
For a TE012,  if that's your goal with a direct sidewall injection you would need to build to.

Large diameter   0.280 m
Small diameter   0.160 m
Center Plate to Center Plate 0.2658 m

Do you have a recommended location along the side-wall to locate the magnetron?
(Or multiple locations to try)

Thanks - your advice is appreciated. 
(Most of the tech involved in this project I'm fine with, however, the microwave magic I'm still learning as I go...)

I think Iulian had a good idea running his magnetron into the side wall but I disagree with this directly coupled angled insertion.  http://www.masinaelectrica.com/emdrive-independent-test/

This is not much different than Tagmar's angled approach

If you look at his first drawing on the second page he had it correct as to how to inject the microwaves into the cavity.

If you saved the microwave magnetron you could use this to couple into the drive (see picture). The question is do you still have the guide from the microwave?

Shell


I thought long and hard about duplicating Iulian's insertion point. Doc, MR T and I had many discussions on this. Here are the insertion points I experimented with:

1) Centered on small diameter = null results
2) Off-center on large diameter = null results
3) Centered on large diameter = results per my test report

I avoided side insertion mainly because of copper mesh sidewalls not being as suitable as a solid end plate for mounting either waveguide of mag. Also, I did have concerns about Iulians design sputtering on bottom plate due to proximity of radome. Side insertion (my humble view only) should be waveguide only. Iulian had null results when side insertion point was centered if memory serves me correctly.

I still have some doubts (no evidence however) that waveguide insertion will contain some EM polarity component (horizontal or vertical) that may reduce the effect compared to a non directional (omni) pattern from a radome.

Regardless, this is my speculation only purely based on my experience with horn antennas. A non-circular waveguide will form polarity patterns: http://www.antenna-theory.com/antennas/aperture/horn.php
Good suggestions.

The metal antenna out of the magnetron of the magnetron is simply a 1/4 wave antenna. Am I right on this?

We did run simulations on a single waveguide insertion into the bottom of the cavity parallel to the large plate and while the pattern for the TE013 wasn't perfect it still showed  a very nice mode generation.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B1XizxEfB23tR2NZaTZpeGE1ODA

I'm not suggesting that the wide section of the magnetron be placed parallel  but vertical orientated just like the picture with the bottom edge of the magnetron wave guide on the bottom outside section of the large plate.

Unlike the simulation where the waveguide (I linked too) was shortened on the bottom that leads to some discontinuity in modes by making the wave guide on the bottom the length of the guide on the waveguide on the magnetron and "filling in" the missing section.

Shells - Are you suggesting this configuration? E and H views with one wave guide source.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B1XizxEfB23tczZUTjV2ZFAzRFk&usp=sharing

Did you do any .gif's for this configuration showing the field dynamics? That's what we need to see.
Retired, working interesting problems

Offline X_RaY

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Offline SeeShells

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Hey Shell,
I'm part way through the frustum build (metal is cut) based on the dimensions you suggested..

Quote
For a TE012,  if that's your goal with a direct sidewall injection you would need to build to.

Large diameter   0.280 m
Small diameter   0.160 m
Center Plate to Center Plate 0.2658 m

Do you have a recommended location along the side-wall to locate the magnetron?
(Or multiple locations to try)

Thanks - your advice is appreciated. 
(Most of the tech involved in this project I'm fine with, however, the microwave magic I'm still learning as I go...)

I think Iulian had a good idea running his magnetron into the side wall but I disagree with this directly coupled angled insertion.  http://www.masinaelectrica.com/emdrive-independent-test/

This is not much different than Tagmar's angled approach

If you look at his first drawing on the second page he had it correct as to how to inject the microwaves into the cavity.

If you saved the microwave magnetron you could use this to couple into the drive (see picture). The question is do you still have the guide from the microwave?

Shell


I thought long and hard about duplicating Iulian's insertion point. Doc, MR T and I had many discussions on this. Here are the insertion points I experimented with:

1) Centered on small diameter = null results
2) Off-center on large diameter = null results
3) Centered on large diameter = results per my test report

I avoided side insertion mainly because of copper mesh sidewalls not being as suitable as a solid end plate for mounting either waveguide of mag. Also, I did have concerns about Iulians design sputtering on bottom plate due to proximity of radome. Side insertion (my humble view only) should be waveguide only. Iulian had null results when side insertion point was centered if memory serves me correctly.

I still have some doubts (no evidence however) that waveguide insertion will contain some EM polarity component (horizontal or vertical) that may reduce the effect compared to a non directional (omni) pattern from a radome.

Regardless, this is my speculation only purely based on my experience with horn antennas. A non-circular waveguide will form polarity patterns: http://www.antenna-theory.com/antennas/aperture/horn.php
Good suggestions.

The metal antenna out of the magnetron of the magnetron is simply a 1/4 wave antenna. Am I right on this?

We did run simulations on a single waveguide insertion into the bottom of the cavity parallel to the large plate and while the pattern for the TE013 wasn't perfect it still showed  a very nice mode generation.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B1XizxEfB23tR2NZaTZpeGE1ODA

I'm not suggesting that the wide section of the magnetron be placed parallel  but vertical orientated just like the picture with the bottom edge of the magnetron wave guide on the bottom outside section of the large plate.

Unlike the simulation where the waveguide (I linked too) was shortened on the bottom that leads to some discontinuity in modes by making the wave guide on the bottom the length of the guide on the waveguide on the magnetron and "filling in" the missing section.

Shells - Are you suggesting this configuration? E and H views with one wave guide source.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B1XizxEfB23tczZUTjV2ZFAzRFk&usp=sharing

Did you do any .gif's for this configuration showing the field dynamics? That's what we need to see.

I have one done (sorry for caps have company over) Y-vu-Hz 0-09

I'll be glad to do another if you would like.
.

y-vU-hZ
« Last Edit: 11/27/2015 06:36 pm by SeeShells »

Offline TheTraveller

...I have one done (sorry for caps have company over) Y-vu-Hz 0-09...

As this is important here is some info that has not yet been disclosed.

I did discuss direct maggie microwave injection with Roger. His comments were resonance and a low VSWR were needed. His preference is for TE013 excitation. I have chosen to do that at the centre of the middle lobe as that results in even guide wavelength distance from the 2 end plates.

Roger also told me that SPR don't use antenna excitation inside the frustum at power levels above 450W. I believe that is due to concerns about possible arcing due to the very high field intensity inside a high Q frustum.

Side wall or end plate antenna position is dependent on the desired mode to be excited by the maggies 1/4 wave stub antenna. My understanding is that generally end plate location will favour TM modes excitation and side wall location will favour TE modes excitation.

Side wall excitation is normally 1/4 guide wavelength from the big end plate (centre of the lobe at the big end).

Additionally Roger told me he prefers the coupling method Prof Yang has developed for either coax or waveguide primary energy source. In his latest patent and papers the choke or aperture is part of the side wall of the frustum (item 12 in 2nd attachment), which I believe results in minimal phase distortion around the Rf input port, especially if using pulsed Rf excitation, the after the pulse state of the resonant EM wave in the cavity that is still generating thrust.

Those are my current thoughts and references on excitation methods and why, so back to lurking.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/emdriveresearch
« Last Edit: 11/27/2015 09:51 pm by TheTraveller »
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline dustinthewind

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I have one done (sorry for caps have company over) Y-vu-Hz 0-09

I'll be glad to do another if you would like.
.

y-vU-hZ

I just wanted to say Shells, that this is an interesting gif you have here.  Maybe I'm wrong but I thought standing waves were what is usually found in resonant structures.  It suggest power is being transferred to the small end?  What I am seeing here looks like a traveling wave along the side walls and it is always traveling towards the small end.  If there were electromagnetic drag created, such as when you drag a magnet along aluminum and the aluminum gets dragged with it, then maybe this could do the same with the frustum side walls? 
Follow the science? What is science with out the truth.  If there is no truth in it it is not science.  Truth is found by open discussion and rehashing facts not those that moderate it to fit their agenda.  In the end the truth speaks for itself.  Beware the strong delusion and lies mentioned in 2ndThesalonians2:11.  The last stage of Babylon is transhumanism.  Clay mingled with iron (flesh mingled with machine).  MK ultra out of control.  Consider bill gates patent 202060606 (666), that hacks the humans to make their brains crunch C R Y P T O. Are humans hackable animals or are they protected like when Jesus cast out the legion?

Offline zen-in

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It doesn't matter where the feed is placed in the cavity.   Everyone has done it different and has adjusted the frequency to minimize the missmatch.    If you maximize the power delivered to the cavity you will maximize the thermal response and therefore see a miniscule movement.

Offline rfmwguy

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It doesn't matter where the feed is placed in the cavity.   Everyone has done it different and has adjusted the frequency to minimize the missmatch.    If you maximize the power delivered to the cavity you will maximize the thermal response and therefore see a miniscule movement.
Zen, do you have a thermal radiation theory that supports this? I read about the pioneer anomaly and was intrigued thermal radiation interacts with the vacuum of space.

Offline OnlyMe

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It doesn't matter where the feed is placed in the cavity.   Everyone has done it different and has adjusted the frequency to minimize the missmatch.    If you maximize the power delivered to the cavity you will maximize the thermal response and therefore see a miniscule movement.
Zen, do you have a thermal radiation theory that supports this? I read about the pioneer anomaly and was intrigued thermal radiation interacts with the vacuum of space.

The way the final report on the anomaly turned out it was not really a thermal interaction with the vacuum... At least not as it was explained.

It was a very small imbalance in the way heat radiated from the satellite. A very small IR photon thrust effect, sort of. No QV or QFT involved.

Offline SeeShells

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It doesn't matter where the feed is placed in the cavity.   Everyone has done it different and has adjusted the frequency to minimize the missmatch.    If you maximize the power delivered to the cavity you will maximize the thermal response and therefore see a miniscule movement.
I would hope you could expand your thoughts here zen-in and Dr. Rodal why the like?

Shell

Offline SeeShells

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Been waiting for the minivna tiny to arrive so I could d some profiling on the cavity. I just got here! So I'll be back to the shop tomorrow! Ready to get this current build over with!

Offline rfmwguy

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It doesn't matter where the feed is placed in the cavity.   Everyone has done it different and has adjusted the frequency to minimize the missmatch.    If you maximize the power delivered to the cavity you will maximize the thermal response and therefore see a miniscule movement.
Zen, do you have a thermal radiation theory that supports this? I read about the pioneer anomaly and was intrigued thermal radiation interacts with the vacuum of space.

The way the final report on the anomaly turned out it was not really a thermal interaction with the vacuum... At least not as it was explained.

It was a very small imbalance in the way heat radiated from the satellite. A very small IR photon thrust effect, sort of. No QV or QFT involved.
This is what I am interested in. IR photonic thrust is new to me...for example, was it more than a  photon rocket thrust...if so, why?

Offline OnlyMe

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It doesn't matter where the feed is placed in the cavity.   Everyone has done it different and has adjusted the frequency to minimize the missmatch.    If you maximize the power delivered to the cavity you will maximize the thermal response and therefore see a miniscule movement.
Zen, do you have a thermal radiation theory that supports this? I read about the pioneer anomaly and was intrigued thermal radiation interacts with the vacuum of space.

The way the final report on the anomaly turned out it was not really a thermal interaction with the vacuum... At least not as it was explained.

It was a very small imbalance in the way heat radiated from the satellite. A very small IR photon thrust effect, sort of. No QV or QFT involved.
This is what I am interested in. IR photonic thrust is new to me...for example, was it more than a  photon rocket thrust...if so, why?

This was a very small effect, as in it took as long as it did to even be noticed. Basically all it was is an uneven radiation of heat loss. You could say that is like a very inefficient photon rocket! At least that was the best explanation that could be made without using an EMDrive to send someone out to bring back the satellite for a thorough investigation.

Really, humor aside.., as far as any useable thrust is concerned no matter where the effect came from it is a dead end... And the heat loss explanation was pretty compelling. I don't remember all of the details. I do remember I was reading the report the Tanksgiving day just after it was released, and exchanged email with the author that day. Very surprised that he responded on Thanksgiving day!

I might still have the report. I'll have to dig around and see now.
« Last Edit: 11/28/2015 01:04 am by OnlyMe »

Offline TheTraveller

Friday was finally my last radiation treatment. 8 weeks at 5 per week. Some days two treatments. They added a few on at the end.

My pelvic, bowel and bladder regions are feeling like a chook that has been slowly cooked in a microwave. At my last doc interview was told the negative radiation effects will build up and peak in about 4 weeks, then drop away over another 4-6 weeks. Not really what I wanted to hear.

Will get there.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline Bob Woods

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Friday was finally my last radiation treatment. 8 weeks at 5 per week. Some days two treatments. They added a few on at the end.

My pelvic, bowel and bladder regions are feeling like a chook that has been slowly cooked in a microwave. At my last doc interview was told the negative radiation effects will build up and peak in about 4 weeks, then drop away over another 4-6 weeks. Not really what I wanted to hear.

Will get there.

Take care of yourself TT, you have a lot of work to do. Glad to hear you're done with the radiation. Onward and upward from here.

I was tempted to tell you to stay away from the microwaves given the way your insides feel, but that would be counterproductive, wouldn't it?   :D

Offline Emmett Brown

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Thanks everyone for the info and discussion on feeding the maggie into the frustum.  Lots of good points to consider!

The reason I was thinking of direct insertion to begin with were two-fold:

1) Easier construction with the ability to test different magnetron locations  (small holes to 'patch')
2) If any thrust is measured, I can trivially reorient JUST the frustum and keep all other aspects of the test platform constant.  Even the magnetron itself and its wiring would not change.  I could thus run accurate comparison tests in forward/reverse/null directions.

(This assumes the magnetron antenna itself is rotationally invariant, correct me if I'm wrong here)

As a reminder, I'm planning a horizontal thrust measurement so I can avoid the thermal effects.  The magnetron antenna would be facing up into the side of the frustum.

Quote
If you saved the microwave magnetron you could use this to couple into the drive (see picture). The question is do you still have the guide from the microwave?

I do have the microwave casing.  The magnetron waveguide is slightly different then the pic, but yes, I was considering cutting it out if the time came for such a mount.

Iulian seemed to have his magnetron in a different location (based on the videos) than his original diagram showed (looks almost centered in the vids).  But I'm not sure how much trust I should put in his results though as his setup was far from ideal.  It's too bad he wasn't able to do more follow up experiments to eliminate the potential sources of error in his test platform.

TT - I wish you all the best with your treatment.

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