Author Topic: Official reactions to first Falcon 9 flight  (Read 43011 times)

Offline Lobo

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Re: Official reactions to first Falcon 9 flight
« Reply #20 on: 06/06/2010 05:19 am »
I'm a conservative (vs. being a Republican - there are conservatives in both parties) and find Sen. Shelby's actions ridiculous and anti-private enterprise,  but then he has NASA facilities in his state and keeping them humming helps his re-election prospects.  Many Democrats fight tooth and nail for their home-town government programs too so....

I am too, and I agree and agree.  Well said.

Offline zerm

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Re: Official reactions to first Falcon 9 flight
« Reply #21 on: 06/07/2010 11:50 am »
I'm really mad at the allegedly Republican Senators' comments.  I agree that most Americans would disagree, but the only ones who matter to them are the ones in their states - who probably agree with them.  Such is life in a democratic republic.

Yes, anyone find it odd that two Republican senators are placing their bets against private enterprise in favor of big government solutions?  :P
 

About as odd as it is for a President who's so in favor of big government solutions for pretty much everything is so in favor of private enterprise here...

My guess they are somewhat worried that the President and his supporters will try to use this successful launch as validation of his non-plan, and thus, NASA HSF will be end for a long time and we'll be stuck in LEO for 3 more decades...
Obviously that would be a blow for NASA and their districts.  (politicians politik, as DocMordrid said, go figure!)

So they are probably basically trying to say is, "Well, this is well and good, and it's what NASA has been working on for the past 4-5 years anyway with the COTS program, but let's not think that this should or can replace NASA HSF altogether."

But it probably would have sounded actually better if they'd just said it like that.  :)


You hit it square on target here.

Offline Garrett

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Re: Official reactions to first Falcon 9 flight
« Reply #22 on: 06/07/2010 01:23 pm »
Elon responds to the political critics in his recent interview with Miles O'Brien:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=18936.msg602455#msg602455

(the relevant comments are mainly made between 4:20 and 9:30)

EDIT: looks like Chris moved the above linked post somewhere else. I'm sure everyone here knows how to find the video by themselves.
« Last Edit: 06/07/2010 01:50 pm by Garrett »
- "Nothing shocks me. I'm a scientist." - Indiana Jones

Offline Garrett

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Re: Official reactions to first Falcon 9 flight
« Reply #23 on: 06/07/2010 01:34 pm »
My guess they are somewhat worried that the President and his supporters will try to use this successful launch as validation of his non-plan, and thus, NASA HSF will be end for a long time and we'll be stuck in LEO for 3 more decades...

Which would obviously mean that they understood nothing about the realities of Constellation, nor do they understand anything about the new path.

Quote
So they are probably basically trying to say is, "Well, this is well and good, and it's what NASA has been working on for the past 4-5 years anyway with the COTS program, but let's not think that this should or can replace NASA HSF altogether."
But are they really thinking like that? And why would anyone think like that? COTS is designed to stop NASA from wasting time with LEO, something that should have been done 20 years ago in my opinion, and that of many other space travel enthusiasts. The medium to long term goal is for NASA HSF to be concentrated on BEO. In the even longer term (50 years?), that should in turn be taken over by private enterprise and NASA HSF should be shifted to "BISS" (Beyond Inner Solar System), and so on.
« Last Edit: 06/07/2010 01:36 pm by Garrett »
- "Nothing shocks me. I'm a scientist." - Indiana Jones

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Official reactions to first Falcon 9 flight
« Reply #24 on: 06/07/2010 03:59 pm »
Huh?

The pad abort and restart.  Isn't that new ground?

Plus, the word "belated" is just sour grapes.

...The ironic bit is that Shelby has to go back all the way to 1964 to try to find a comparable test launch...

More proof that BTDT is a failed argument.  The whole point is to do it again, until it becomes more routine.

...Yes, anyone find it odd that two Republican senators are placing their bets against private enterprise in favor of big government solutions?

What you may not realize is that Democrats don't believe that captialism works within the atmosphere.  Republicans don't believe capitalism works outside of the atmosphere.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline gladiator1332

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Re: Official reactions to first Falcon 9 flight
« Reply #25 on: 06/07/2010 04:19 pm »
Huh?

The pad abort and restart.  Isn't that new ground?

Plus, the word "belated" is just sour grapes.

...The ironic bit is that Shelby has to go back all the way to 1964 to try to find a comparable test launch...

More proof that BTDT is a failed argument.  The whole point is to do it again, until it becomes more routine.

...Yes, anyone find it odd that two Republican senators are placing their bets against private enterprise in favor of big government solutions?

What you may not realize is that Democrats don't believe that captialism works within the atmosphere.  Republicans don't believe capitalism works outside of the atmosphere.

I posted this in the Orion thread, but I believe it has some relevance here as well. I was reading Mitt Romney's book last night, "No Apology". It sounds like he would be a fan of FY2011, at least when looking at these statements from his book:

"As Alan Greenspan has observed, 'Deep down that is probably the message of capitalism: Creative Destruction- The scrapping of old technologies and old ways of doing things for the new, is the only way to increase productivity and therefore the only way to raise average living standards on a sustainable basis'."

Romney then continues, "Creative destruction is unquestionably stressful -- on workers, managers, owners, suppliers, customers, and the communities that surround the affected businesses. The pressures these groups put on political leaders to block game-changing innovations can be intense. The most important thing government can do to promote innovation and productivity is not to block it, as by preventing creative destruction."

I mean this is the exact situation we are in right now. Shelby is trying to block commercial spaceflight purely because it hurts Ares, and the interests in his state. Beyond that he does not care that much about spaceflight. I believe Elon Musk alluded to the same thoughts on This Week in Space.


Offline RocketEconomist327

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Re: Official reactions to first Falcon 9 flight
« Reply #26 on: 06/07/2010 04:33 pm »
I'm really mad at the allegedly Republican Senators' comments.  I agree that most Americans would disagree, but the only ones who matter to them are the ones in their states - who probably agree with them.  Such is life in a democratic republic.

Yes, anyone find it odd that two Republican senators are placing their bets against private enterprise in favor of big government solutions?  :P
One word:  RINO

You can talk about all the great things you can do, or want to do, in space; but unless the rocket scientists get a sound understanding of economics (and quickly), the US space program will never achieve the greatness it should.

Putting my money where my mouth is.

Offline Antares

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Re: Official reactions to first Falcon 9 flight
« Reply #27 on: 06/07/2010 05:51 pm »
This is a different breed of RINO.  Shelby is pretty danged conservative on everything that doesn't involve his own pork.
If I like something on NSF, it's probably because I know it to be accurate.  Every once in a while, it's just something I agree with.  Facts generally receive the former.

Offline brihath

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Re: Official reactions to first Falcon 9 flight
« Reply #28 on: 06/07/2010 06:20 pm »
And what does Shelby mean by achieving what NASA already did in 1964?

I'm not sure myself, but I suspect that it relates to the Gemini/Titan system in some way.

My guess is the SA-6 launch, with over 1 million lbs first stage thrust, S-IV 2nd stage and boilerplate Apollo CSM, launched on May 28, 1964.  This is a closer analogue in performance to the Falcon 9.  Also, the Saturn I was an MSFC design, another dig for Shelby's constituency. 

Gemini Titan never flew a boilerplate capsule, and Titan was an outgrowth of the USAF ICBM, whose capabilities were proved before 1964.  Also, Titan II performance was quite a bit below Falcon 9.

Offline ChuckC

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Re: Official reactions to first Falcon 9 flight
« Reply #29 on: 06/07/2010 11:14 pm »
I'm a conservative (vs. being a Republican - there are conservatives in both parties) and find Sen. Shelby's actions ridiculous and anti-private enterprise,  but then he has NASA facilities in his state and keeping them humming helps his re-election prospects.  Many Democrats fight tooth and nail for their home-town government programs too so....

Same here, I have thought that manned space flight needs to be privatized for over 20 years. I just never had the means to pursue it myself. I’m glad to see it finally happening.

Under Government control manned space flight has stagnated. I suspect that part of the opposition to commercial space flight is the fear that it will put Government run programs to shame. I really believe that once space X and other COST companies show private sector manned space flight to not only be possible but economically feasible that others will follow. Once good old capitalistic free market forces take over we will get back to the moon and beyond and this time to stay.

Offline nooneofconsequence

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Re: Official reactions to first Falcon 9 flight
« Reply #30 on: 06/07/2010 11:29 pm »
Not at all - politics is a dirty and dishonest profession...
... made so by those who vote for them. It is as clean a profession as we collectively wish to make it.
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato

Offline mmeijeri

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Re: Official reactions to first Falcon 9 flight
« Reply #31 on: 06/07/2010 11:33 pm »
... made so by those who vote for them. It is as clean a profession as we collectively wish to make it.

Quote
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.
-- George Bernard Shaw
Pro-tip: you don't have to be a jerk if someone doesn't agree with your theories

Offline ChuckC

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Re: Official reactions to first Falcon 9 flight
« Reply #32 on: 06/07/2010 11:50 pm »
Not at all - politics is a dirty and dishonest profession...
... made so by those who vote for them. It is as clean a profession as we collectively wish to make it.

True, but in all fairness some times we don’t have much to work with. Many politicians get elected by pretending to be something they are not, like being human beings for example. :-)

One other factor is that it is easier for a dirty and dishonest politician to raise funds that a clean and honest one. After all when you have no standards you can do and promise anything to get a donation even if it is crooked or you have no intentions of keeping that promise.

Offline corrodedNut

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Re: Official reactions to first Falcon 9 flight
« Reply #33 on: 06/08/2010 12:20 am »
I've got the official charter boat reaction:

Quote
...MAYDAY...MAYDAY...Senator Shelby, do you read me???...we've run into some trouble....
need to abort operation ALABAMA REGATTA...repeat...ABORT... ABORT...how do you copy?... over...

Offline Dave G

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Re: Official reactions to first Falcon 9 flight
« Reply #34 on: 06/08/2010 12:31 am »
Quote
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Democracy is the worst form of government, except all the others...
-- Sir Winston Churchill
« Last Edit: 06/08/2010 12:32 am by Dave G »

Offline butters

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Re: Official reactions to first Falcon 9 flight
« Reply #35 on: 06/08/2010 01:59 am »
Not at all - politics is a dirty and dishonest profession...
... made so by those who vote for them. It is as clean a profession as we collectively wish to make it.

There are structural elements of our republic that moderate the influence of democracy, and it's not just campaign finance. 

We have a representative democracy based on single-member district plurality (in Britain they call it "first past the post").  This structure inherently promotes a two-party system in which voters are discouraged from "wasting" their vote on candidates from other parties.

Furthermore, the electorate is only empowered to vote out their representatives in Congress when their terms are up.  So candidates can ask for our votes and then use their term in office to advance their own agendas rather than the interests of their constituencies.  Sen. Lieberman, for example, probably would no longer be in office if the people of Connecticut had any choice in the matter.

But on the topic of Sen. Shelby, I don't think this is really about bringing home the pork for Alabama.  If it were, then he would be excited by the brighter prospects for ULA (Decatur) under the proposed budget relative to the funding for ATK (Utah) under the POR, not to mention the new engine development pork.

I think this is rather about control.  Shelby has more control over who gets the money down the line, 5-10-15 years from now, under the prevailing NASA contracting structure.  While ULA is highly competitive today as a commercial provider, up and coming competitors such as SpaceX may eventually win more contracts.

This is about Shelby wanting to keep NASA funding under his thumb.
« Last Edit: 06/08/2010 02:01 am by butters »

Offline nooneofconsequence

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Re: Official reactions to first Falcon 9 flight
« Reply #36 on: 06/08/2010 03:10 am »
I've got the official charter boat reaction:

Quote
...MAYDAY...MAYDAY...Senator Shelby, do you read me???...we've run into some trouble....
need to abort operation ALABAMA REGATTA...repeat...ABORT... ABORT...how do you copy?... over...

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.
-- George Bernard Shaw
My son insisted I talk with Steve Schneider at Stanford, with his version of this as "can democracy survive complexity".

I still hold the electorate responsible.
I think this is rather about control.  Shelby has more control over who gets the money down the line, 5-10-15 years from now, under the prevailing NASA contracting structure.  While ULA is highly competitive today as a commercial provider, up and coming competitors such as SpaceX may eventually win more contracts.

This is about Shelby wanting to keep NASA funding under his thumb.
Yes. "It's good to be the king".  However, when the side agreements fail (have been failing all along BTW...), the king can lose his grasp.
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato

Offline Lobo

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Re: Official reactions to first Falcon 9 flight
« Reply #37 on: 06/08/2010 05:02 am »
But are they really thinking like that? And why would anyone think like that? COTS is designed to stop NASA from wasting time with LEO, something that should have been done 20 years ago in my opinion, and that of many other space travel enthusiasts. The medium to long term goal is for NASA HSF to be concentrated on BEO. In the even longer term (50 years?), that should in turn be taken over by private enterprise and NASA HSF should be shifted to "BISS" (Beyond Inner Solar System), and so on.

They probably think that because FY2011 cancels both NASA's current space vehicles, and it's replacement (albiet miguided replacement), and doesn't replace them with anything other than flowery rhetoric about maybe something some time, maybe,that can go to Mars.  But with no definable plane or goals or milestones. 
That non-plan is ripe to make NASA an $18 billion a year slush fund.  But even if the next President actually comes in with a plan for NASA HSF exploration, the shuttle infrastructure is totally gone, so it it would need to start new, which means NASA isn't even going into LEO for a few decades, much less BLEO.

That is probably why they think that.

SpaceX may someday actually get people into Oribit. I sincerely hope they do...because they are about all we have going or will have going for the next few decades if FY2011 passes in it's current form.  We'll be stuck in LEO for another 3 decades, just NAS will be buying rides from SpaceX orBoei-Bigalow rather than having the capability to do it themselves.

And it's all unecesary..that's the herat breaking part.

Offline Garrett

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Re: Official reactions to first Falcon 9 flight
« Reply #38 on: 06/08/2010 08:42 am »
...
 But with no definable plane or goals or milestones. 
...
The main goal is to get NASA out of the business of ferrying astronauts to LEO. Probably the biggest revolution in space flight in recent times. As Musk says "it's the only solution" if ever NASA are to get BLEO.
People are used to seeing spaceflight through the Shuttle program to LEO and it's hard to let that go. But it has to go. The hard part is making sure that NASA LEO experience/jobs are recycled to the max.

Quote
SpaceX may someday actually get people into Oribit. I sincerely hope they do...because they are about all we have going or will have going for the next few decades if FY2011 passes in it's current form.  We'll be stuck in LEO for another 3 decades, just NASA will be buying rides from SpaceX orBoei-Bigalow rather than having the capability to do it themselves.
I really hope you're right and that private enterprise takes over LEO. But I also hope/expect that it will mean that NASA and other international agencies can and will focus their efforts on BLEO. Musk has recently stated that NASA have already begun discussions on a Super Heavy Lift vehicle. I predict 15 to 20 years till the first NASA BLEO mission, almost certainly to an asteroid.

Quote
And it's all unecesary..that's the herat breaking part.
It is necessary, but you're right it is also heart breaking for many. I cannot begin to imagine what some people are going through right now, and this is where I am out of my league and where I will accept that maybe I should shut up. I only hope that in the short to medium term that FY2011 creates a renewed and stronger space industry which will eventually carry everyone on the wave.
- "Nothing shocks me. I'm a scientist." - Indiana Jones

Offline gospacex

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Re: Official reactions to first Falcon 9 flight
« Reply #39 on: 06/08/2010 11:20 am »
They probably think that because FY2011 cancels both NASA's current space vehicles, and it's replacement (albiet miguided replacement), and doesn't replace them with anything other than flowery rhetoric about maybe something some time, maybe,that can go to Mars.  But with no definable plane or goals or milestones. 
That non-plan is ripe to make NASA an $18 billion a year slush fund.  But even if the next President actually comes in with a plan for NASA HSF exploration, the shuttle infrastructure is totally gone, so it it would need to start new, which means NASA isn't even going into LEO for a few decades, much less BLEO.

If NASA needs *A DECADE* to build a LV, it is totally incompetent. Musk built two in 8 years.

Quote
SpaceX may someday actually get people into Oribit. I sincerely hope they do...because they are about all we have going or will have going for the next few decades if FY2011 passes in it's current form.

All we also have is *only two providers* for nationally critical market of x86 CPUs! Horror! We are at risk! We need to create National Semiconductor Administration! Right??

Quote
We'll be stuck in LEO for another 3 decades, just NAS will be buying rides from SpaceX orBoei-Bigalow rather than having the capability to do it themselves.

We aren't stuck if SpaceX, Boeing, LM or anyone else is providing the ride.

In fact, we were, and still are, stuck in LEO exactly because incompetent fat slow NASA was/is doing it itself.

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