Author Topic: Choices for Human LEO Spacecraft and Missions  (Read 5699 times)

Offline Rocket Science

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Choices for Human LEO Spacecraft and Missions
« on: 08/04/2011 08:49 pm »
Now that we have three concrete choices for potential human-rated spacecraft and launch vehicles for LEO…  How do you envision their usage? As for myself, on the near term, I see the CST-100 on station for an immediate use CRV replaced every 6-7 months stay on orbit. The Dragon for experiments, consumables and other cargo. Finally Dream Chaser for regular crew rotation and the return of delicate and time critical experiments. Any thoughts and opinions for mix…
« Last Edit: 08/06/2011 09:08 pm by Rocket Science »
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Offline Lars_J

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Re: Choices for LEO Spacecraft and Missions
« Reply #1 on: 08/06/2011 04:19 am »
Neither choices are "concrete" at this point, but I would hope for the use of a crewed Dragon most of all. Mostly because Dragon has an easier development path to BEO capability compared to CST-100 or Dreamchaser.

Offline Political Hack Wannabe

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Re: Choices for LEO Spacecraft and Missions
« Reply #2 on: 08/06/2011 04:32 am »
Neither choices are "concrete" at this point, but I would hope for the use of a crewed Dragon most of all. Mostly because Dragon has an easier development path to BEO capability compared to CST-100 or Dreamchaser.

Why would you want a capsule for BEO?  You can have a bigger BEO ship using other ideas and systems
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Offline Political Hack Wannabe

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Re: Choices for LEO Spacecraft and Missions
« Reply #3 on: 08/06/2011 04:36 am »
Now that we have three concrete choices for potential human-rated spacecraft and launch vehicles for LEO…  How do you envision their usage? As for myself, on the near term, I see the CST-100 on station for an immediate use CRV replaced every 6-7 months stay on orbit. The Dragon for experiments, consumables and other cargo. Finally Dream Chaser for regular crew rotation and the return of delicate and time critical experiments. Any thoughts and opinions for mix…


I think that will be decided by the marketplace, based on supply/demand/market viability/developmental funding.

And trying to predict the the usage without commenting on my four issues makes it unlikely that you can have any accuracy in predicting the outcome. 

Oh, and you forgot Cygnus, and the Blue Origin Space Vehicle.
It's not democrats vs republicans, it's reality vs innumerate space cadet fantasy.

Offline Jorge

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Re: Choices for LEO Spacecraft and Missions
« Reply #4 on: 08/06/2011 04:43 am »
Now that we have three concrete choices for potential human-rated spacecraft and launch vehicles for LEO…  How do you envision their usage? As for myself, on the near term, I see the CST-100 on station for an immediate use CRV replaced every 6-7 months stay on orbit. The Dragon for experiments, consumables and other cargo. Finally Dream Chaser for regular crew rotation and the return of delicate and time critical experiments. Any thoughts and opinions for mix…


I think that will be decided by the marketplace, based on supply/demand/market viability/developmental funding.

And trying to predict the the usage without commenting on my four issues makes it unlikely that you can have any accuracy in predicting the outcome. 

Oh, and you forgot Cygnus, and the Blue Origin Space Vehicle.

I don't think he forgot Cygnus, since he stipulated human-rated vehicles. You're right about Blue Origin, though.
JRF

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Choices for LEO Spacecraft and Missions
« Reply #5 on: 08/06/2011 04:43 am »
Neither choices are "concrete" at this point, but I would hope for the use of a crewed Dragon most of all. Mostly because Dragon has an easier development path to BEO capability compared to CST-100 or Dreamchaser.

Why would you want a capsule for BEO?  You can have a bigger BEO ship using other ideas and systems

The very big spaceships {such as Mars Transfer Vehicles (MTV)} stay in space.  That permits these very expensive machines to be reused.

People need a way to get to and from the big spaceship, possibly parked at Earth-Moon Lagrange point 1 (EML-1).  EML-1 and Low Lunar Orbit (LLO) are BEO (beyond Earth Orbit).  So a BEO capsule is needed.

Offline Downix

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Re: Choices for LEO Spacecraft and Missions
« Reply #6 on: 08/06/2011 05:08 am »
Neither choices are "concrete" at this point, but I would hope for the use of a crewed Dragon most of all. Mostly because Dragon has an easier development path to BEO capability compared to CST-100 or Dreamchaser.
Er, you do realize that the CST-100 is a BEO capable design, yes?
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Offline Lars_J

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Re: Choices for LEO Spacecraft and Missions
« Reply #7 on: 08/06/2011 05:54 am »
Neither choices are "concrete" at this point, but I would hope for the use of a crewed Dragon most of all. Mostly because Dragon has an easier development path to BEO capability compared to CST-100 or Dreamchaser.
Er, you do realize that the CST-100 is a BEO capable design, yes?

No it is not. It can be evolved into one, but the currently planned version is not.

Offline Downix

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Re: Choices for LEO Spacecraft and Missions
« Reply #8 on: 08/06/2011 07:14 am »
Neither choices are "concrete" at this point, but I would hope for the use of a crewed Dragon most of all. Mostly because Dragon has an easier development path to BEO capability compared to CST-100 or Dreamchaser.
Er, you do realize that the CST-100 is a BEO capable design, yes?

No it is not. It can be evolved into one, but the currently planned version is not.
It depends on how you define BEO.  I refer to a vehicle able to facilitate a BEO mission, which the CST-100 is fully capable of, as the crew access and return element, docked to the spaceship which does the actual mission, such as a Nautilus-X.  Any capabilities beyond this are a waste in such a mission, in my opinion.
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline Lars_J

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Re: Choices for LEO Spacecraft and Missions
« Reply #9 on: 08/06/2011 07:27 am »
Neither choices are "concrete" at this point, but I would hope for the use of a crewed Dragon most of all. Mostly because Dragon has an easier development path to BEO capability compared to CST-100 or Dreamchaser.
Er, you do realize that the CST-100 is a BEO capable design, yes?

No it is not. It can be evolved into one, but the currently planned version is not.
It depends on how you define BEO.  I refer to a vehicle able to facilitate a BEO mission, which the CST-100 is fully capable of, as the crew access and return element, docked to the spaceship which does the actual mission, such as a Nautilus-X.  Any capabilities beyond this are a waste in such a mission, in my opinion.
Well sure, if you define it a BEO capable spacecraft as only needing to dock to something in LEO, sure. :) But I think most would agree that a BEO spacecraft should be capable of reaching GSO, L1/2, or LLO on "its own". And the very short free-flight time of CST-100 will be the major issue to address to make it capable of that.

Offline Downix

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Re: Choices for LEO Spacecraft and Missions
« Reply #10 on: 08/06/2011 07:36 am »
Neither choices are "concrete" at this point, but I would hope for the use of a crewed Dragon most of all. Mostly because Dragon has an easier development path to BEO capability compared to CST-100 or Dreamchaser.
Er, you do realize that the CST-100 is a BEO capable design, yes?

No it is not. It can be evolved into one, but the currently planned version is not.
It depends on how you define BEO.  I refer to a vehicle able to facilitate a BEO mission, which the CST-100 is fully capable of, as the crew access and return element, docked to the spaceship which does the actual mission, such as a Nautilus-X.  Any capabilities beyond this are a waste in such a mission, in my opinion.
Well sure, if you define it a BEO capable spacecraft as only needing to dock to something in LEO, sure. :) But I think most would agree that a BEO spacecraft should be capable of reaching GSO, L1/2, or LLO on "its own". And the very short free-flight time of CST-100 will be the major issue to address to make it capable of that.
Your definition needs some work if you want to do any respectable BEO mission beyond short stunts.  Any system which can do those on its own will be expensive, and require either a super launcher or be crippled in actual capability due to the demands of the mission.  I prefer thinking of capsules as elevators.
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline Lars_J

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Re: Choices for LEO Spacecraft and Missions
« Reply #11 on: 08/06/2011 07:44 am »
Short stunts? I'm not advocating BEO exploration for short stunts.

Commercial BEO spaceraft will be needed for transport to and from the BEO locations I outlined, to support active infrastructure, bases, and true interplanetary BEO craft parking locations. (likely to be in L1/2 to avoid the expense of going too far into our gravity well). The missions should be used to transport crew to and from their destinations - not for Joyrides out there and right back.

I want to see a thriving infrastructure. Both CST-100 and Dragon could be evolved to spacecraft that can reach those destinations in a (relatively) affordable manner. It won't be cheap for sure, since we'll need Falcon Heavy type launchers or orbital refueling, but if the SLS/MPCV budget is used for it and the destinations, it will be within our means.
« Last Edit: 08/06/2011 07:46 am by Lars_J »

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Choices for LEO Spacecraft and Missions
« Reply #12 on: 08/06/2011 09:08 pm »
I call these “concrete” as that we have seen these vehicles partially constructed as is the case for Dream Chaser and CST-100 and now a human rating request for the existing Atlas V. For the case in SpaceX, Dragon and Falcon 9 have already flown. The other two are a bit of a mystery at this point and is subject to change of course...
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Robert
« Last Edit: 08/06/2011 09:12 pm by Rocket Science »
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Online mmeijeri

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Re: Choices for LEO Spacecraft and Missions
« Reply #13 on: 08/06/2011 09:28 pm »
I prefer thinking of capsules as elevators.

That's a good analogy, but they need to be able to go one floor higher than LEO (L1/L2/LLO) and return safely to Earth. Not all of them necessarily, but at least one of them.
« Last Edit: 08/06/2011 09:28 pm by mmeijeri »
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Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: Choices for LEO Spacecraft and Missions
« Reply #14 on: 08/06/2011 09:57 pm »
How do I see it? Like this (and pray pardon my cynicism):

Crewed Dragon - ISS crew transfer, ISS CRV and free-flying commercial passenger flights
CST-100 - ISS crew transfer, ISS CRV and Bigelow crew access vehicle
Orion MPCV - Hanger queen
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