Author Topic: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans  (Read 11595 times)

Offline Chris Bergin

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/content/?cid=5252

Wrote up the main points from the eight new STS-400 presentations in L2 in the best I could manage for a round up.

Let's hope this mission remains only as cool pdfs.
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Offline rfoshaug

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #1 on: 10/12/2007 09:03 am »
Excellent article! :)

"Let's hope this mission remains only as cool pdfs."

Well said.

STS-125 is really going to be an exciting mission.

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #2 on: 10/12/2007 11:20 am »
Interesting, to say the least!

Several thoughts:

The RPM on approach draws up the nightmare scenario of 2 damaged orbiters (2 loss of crew/vehicle incidents).

Also, early in the shuttle program there was some kind of inflatable life support ball designed for crew rescue from a stranded orbiter (I think they called it the Personal Rescue System).  I presume this (somewhat crazy) device went the way of the MMU and is considered obsolete/unworkable?

Offline Jim

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #3 on: 10/12/2007 11:50 am »
Never was fully developed

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #4 on: 10/12/2007 12:24 pm »
It seemed to me to be problematic at best.  Since it was just an inflatable ball, I could see thermal issues being a big factor in its workability.

Offline Chris Bergin

Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #5 on: 10/12/2007 12:45 pm »
Quote
Chandonn - 12/10/2007  12:20 PM

Interesting, to say the least!

Several thoughts:

The RPM on approach draws up the nightmare scenario of 2 damaged orbiters (2 loss of crew/vehicle incidents).

That was also touched upon on one presentation. Noted that the crew would take the least damaged vehicle and take it from there, but didn't want to go into that for fear of getting too wordy on the article - and it's the complete nightmare scenario that's so unlikely it's not really worth going into.

As far as the RPM. Whether they'd take that option or not is undecided...but worth noting as an option, after it was discussed at what appears to be a series of meetings, which in turn created these documents.

They certainly have a good basis of a plan now...but they'll have a fair amount of work to finish before it's all set in stone.
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Offline tesheiner

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #6 on: 10/12/2007 01:33 pm »
Q: Why is the final "docking" manouver made on the R-bar instead of V-bar like with the ISS?

Offline shuttlefan

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #7 on: 10/12/2007 01:34 pm »
Love the article Chris. I know we don't want to dwell on this too much, but my main worry is the rescue vehicle suffering the same problem as the problem that crippled the first orbiter. :o

Offline Chris Bergin

Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #8 on: 10/12/2007 01:50 pm »
Quote
shuttlefan - 12/10/2007  2:34 PM

Love the article Chris. I know we don't want to dwell on this too much, but my main worry is the rescue vehicle suffering the same problem as the problem that crippled the first orbiter. :o

Thanks much :) I'm sure there are some NASA people thinking "Hmmm, not sure this should be an article, and there's more planning to be done and it's so unlikely to be called" but I do think it's interesting and I'm sure all shuttle fans would like to get a bit of a look into how NASA plan these backup plans.

As far as a serious event happening to both orbiters....don't worry too much about that. The chances of the HST orbiter suffering major damage (remember, we're talking damage that can't even be repaired) and then the LON orbiter having the same critical issue is about as rare as it gets.

Think of this as the ultimate backup plan.
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Offline Seattle Dave

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #9 on: 10/12/2007 05:21 pm »
Quote
rfoshaug - 12/10/2007  4:03 AM

Excellent article! :)

"Let's hope this mission remains only as cool pdfs."

Well said.

STS-125 is really going to be an exciting mission.

Very well said and totally agree.

Offline shuttlefan

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #10 on: 10/12/2007 05:49 pm »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 12/10/2007  8:50 AM

Quote
shuttlefan - 12/10/2007  2:34 PM

Love the article Chris. I know we don't want to dwell on this too much, but my main worry is the rescue vehicle suffering the same problem as the problem that crippled the first orbiter. :o

Thanks much :) I'm sure there are some NASA people thinking "Hmmm, not sure this should be an article, and there's more planning to be done and it's so unlikely to be called" but I do think it's interesting and I'm sure all shuttle fans would like to get a bit of a look into how NASA plan these backup plans.

As far as a serious event happening to both orbiters....don't worry too much about that. The chances of the HST orbiter suffering major damage (remember, we're talking damage that can't even be repaired) and then the LON orbiter having the same critical issue is about as rare as it gets.

Think of this as the ultimate backup plan.

No I'm not too worried about it because I DO realize it is a very slim chance. I for one am interested in your articles about shuttle rescue plans. Even though the chances of it flying are very minimal, it is interesting to here about their backup plans. We have the rite to know. I also wish they'd list the potential rescue missions and their launch dates in the launch schedules they put online. :)

Offline Jorge

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #11 on: 10/12/2007 05:57 pm »
Quote
tesheiner - 12/10/2007  8:33 AM

Q: Why is the final "docking" manouver made on the R-bar instead of V-bar like with the ISS?

ISS was designed to require orbiter approach along the Vbar. But given a choice, Rbar is preferred to minimize plume impingement, especially in an orbiter-to-orbiter approach where plume impingement could set up mutual interactions between the control systems.
JRF

Offline nathan.moeller

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #12 on: 10/12/2007 06:01 pm »
As cool as it would be to see two shuttles linked up, I hope it never comes to pass.
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Offline Lee Jay

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #13 on: 10/12/2007 08:05 pm »
Quote
nathan.moeller - 12/10/2007  12:01 PM

As cool as it would be to see two shuttles linked up, I hope it never comes to pass.

As I've said before, this'll be the first mission on which I'm *hoping* for a roll-back (or, rather, a roll-over).

Offline Rob in KC

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #14 on: 10/12/2007 08:23 pm »
Quote
Lee Jay - 12/10/2007  3:05 PM

Quote
nathan.moeller - 12/10/2007  12:01 PM

As cool as it would be to see two shuttles linked up, I hope it never comes to pass.

As I've said before, this'll be the first mission on which I'm *hoping* for a roll-back (or, rather, a roll-over).

Rollaround :) Endeavour moves from Pad B to Pad A for STS-126, probably with the crawler changing direction at the folk in the crawlerway?

Offline psloss

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #15 on: 10/12/2007 08:37 pm »
Quote
Rob in KC - 12/10/2007  4:23 PM

Rollaround :) Endeavour moves from Pad B to Pad A for STS-126, probably with the crawler changing direction at the folk in the crawlerway?
OK, trivia tangent, but went looking for something in the way of a STS-61 reference (since that was one of the times a rollaround was done) and must have missed this before:
http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/ABSTRACTS/GPN-2000-000757.html

Offline William Graham

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #16 on: 10/12/2007 10:13 pm »
In the unlikely event of a malfunction on STS-125, or any other Shuttle mission for that matter, that requires LON, would the first Shuttle still complete its planned mission, or would everything be abandoned?

Offline Jorge

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #17 on: 10/12/2007 10:26 pm »
Quote
GW_Simulations - 12/10/2007  5:13 PM

In the unlikely event of a malfunction on STS-125, or any other Shuttle mission for that matter, that requires LON, would the first Shuttle still complete its planned mission, or would everything be abandoned?

Depends on the consumables situation and the launch readiness of the LON flight. HST must be deployed (or jettisoned, as the case may be) before the LON orbiter arrives.
JRF

Offline Flightstar

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RE: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #18 on: 10/13/2007 12:32 am »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 11/10/2007  11:03 PM

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/content/?cid=5252

Wrote up the main points from the eight new STS-400 presentations in L2 in the best I could manage for a round up.

Let's hope this mission remains only as cool pdfs.

That was a good read Chris. You mentioned some people might not want to see this sort of article, but I think it's very important people understand that NASA and USA work contingency in the background.

Offline nathan.moeller

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #19 on: 10/13/2007 01:44 am »
Quote
Rob in KC - 12/10/2007  4:23 PM

Rollaround :) Endeavour moves from Pad B to Pad A for STS-126, probably with the crawler changing direction at the folk in the crawlerway?

Yep.  Back it all the way to a point just past the fork in the crawlerway, put her in drive and head straight for Pad A.
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Offline Seattle Dave

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RE: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #20 on: 10/13/2007 04:29 am »
How much flexibility is there for the launch of Endeavour. It says Endeavour would launch one week later on the rescue mission, but if there was bad weather? The worst case scenario I thought of was the time of year, in the hurricane season. STS-125 Atlantis launches, in good weather, no sign, too far out, of a hurricane. One week later and they are rolling back Endeavour.

Horrible pretend scenario, but possible. So how long coud Atlantis be a lifeboat until the weather passed?

Offline Jorge

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RE: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #21 on: 10/13/2007 04:51 am »
Quote
Seattle Dave - 12/10/2007  11:29 PM

How much flexibility is there for the launch of Endeavour. It says Endeavour would launch one week later on the rescue mission, but if there was bad weather? The worst case scenario I thought of was the time of year, in the hurricane season. STS-125 Atlantis launches, in good weather, no sign, too far out, of a hurricane. One week later and they are rolling back Endeavour.

Horrible pretend scenario, but possible. So how long coud Atlantis be a lifeboat until the weather passed?

A little over three weeks, assuming powerdown is early enough.
JRF

Offline William Graham

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #22 on: 10/13/2007 10:24 am »
I think the worst-case scenario for not launching Endeavour would be an RSLS. If something like that happened, could Atlantis try to land the crew?

Offline Jason Davies

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #23 on: 10/13/2007 03:03 pm »
Quote
GW_Simulations - 13/10/2007  5:24 AM

I think the worst-case scenario for not launching Endeavour would be an RSLS. If something like that happened, could Atlantis try to land the crew?

Is that where the engines ignite? How much of a hit does that involve? Not sure what you mean by Atlantis trying to land the crew, but did have an amussing image of that!

Offline Jorge

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #24 on: 10/13/2007 03:49 pm »
Quote
GW_Simulations - 13/10/2007  5:24 AM

I think the worst-case scenario for not launching Endeavour would be an RSLS. If something like that happened, could Atlantis try to land the crew?

If it could, NASA would not have attempted to launch the LON flight in the first place.
JRF

Offline Real Madrid

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #25 on: 10/13/2007 05:02 pm »
what means RSLS
Space Shuttle Endeavour brings Kibo to the ISS

Target Launch date: 11 march 2008 ,06:31 UTC

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #26 on: 10/13/2007 05:17 pm »
Quote
Real Madrid - 13/10/2007  7:02 PM

what means RSLS
Redundant Set Launch Sequencer. It's what takes over from the Ground Lauch Sequencer at T-31 seconds. RSLS abort is when the RSLS has detected a fault and halted the countdown during main engine start.
"For Sardines, space is no problem!"
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"We're rolling in the wrong direction but for the right reasons"
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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #27 on: 10/13/2007 05:27 pm »
Quote
GW_Simulations - 13/10/2007  6:24 AM

I think the worst-case scenario for not launching Endeavour would be an RSLS. If something like that happened, could Atlantis try to land the crew?

I don't know.  I would think an RTLS abort would be worse.  Especially considering how many astronauts think it would not be survivable.

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #28 on: 10/13/2007 05:37 pm »
Quote
Chandonn - 13/10/2007  7:27 PM

Quote
GW_Simulations - 13/10/2007  6:24 AM

I think the worst-case scenario for not launching Endeavour would be an RSLS. If something like that happened, could Atlantis try to land the crew?

I don't know.  I would think an RTLS abort would be worse.  Especially considering how many astronauts think it would not be survivable.
He wrote RSLS(Redundat Set Launch Sequencer), not RTLS(Return To Launch Site).
"For Sardines, space is no problem!"
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"We're rolling in the wrong direction but for the right reasons"
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Offline STS-500Cmdr

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #29 on: 10/13/2007 06:26 pm »
For launching STS-400-the rescue with Endeavour, would NASA maybe waive the normal weather rules-like the winds, clouds,  showers/thunder/lightning within 20 miles, TAL sites-stuff like that or launch with perhaps a slight violation of the normal WX rules in order to get Endeavour up to get the 125 crew?   What happens if the rescue flight with Endeavour has to RTLS or TAL?
Three Engines onboard Endeavour have now throttled back to 2/3rds throttle to prepare the spacecraft to pass through the area of maximum dynamic pressure and to go supersonic

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #30 on: 10/13/2007 06:52 pm »
Quote
DaveS - 13/10/2007  1:37 PM

Quote
Chandonn - 13/10/2007  7:27 PM

Quote
GW_Simulations - 13/10/2007  6:24 AM

I think the worst-case scenario for not launching Endeavour would be an RSLS. If something like that happened, could Atlantis try to land the crew?

I don't know.  I would think an RTLS abort would be worse.  Especially considering how many astronauts think it would not be survivable.
He wrote RSLS(Redundat Set Launch Sequencer), not RTLS(Return To Launch Site).

Yes he did.  And I wrote that an RTLS would be worse.  No need for a correction.

Offline William Graham

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #31 on: 10/14/2007 01:18 am »
Quote
Jason Davies - 13/10/2007  4:03 PM

Quote
GW_Simulations - 13/10/2007  5:24 AM

I think the worst-case scenario for not launching Endeavour would be an RSLS. If something like that happened, could Atlantis try to land the crew?

Is that where the engines ignite? How much of a hit does that involve? Not sure what you mean by Atlantis trying to land the crew, but did have an amussing image of that!

RSLS requires all 3 SSMEs be replaced, which usually means rollback (although I think it was once done at the pad.) Obviously RTLS or TAL would also have the same (or worse) problems, but I was talking about a scenario where the shuttle did not leave the ground.

As for Atlantis, I meant that if the rescue orbiter couldn't launch in time, could the crew risk re-entry in the damaged orbiter, if it were a choice between that, and running out of O2

Offline psloss

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #32 on: 10/14/2007 12:14 pm »
Quote
GW_Simulations - 13/10/2007  9:18 PM

RSLS requires all 3 SSMEs be replaced, which usually means rollback (although I think it was once done at the pad.)
The decision to rollback is probably situational -- the two "post-RSLS" rollbacks for 41-D and 68 weren't completely related to SSME changeout and the 51-F, STS-55, and STS-51 vehicles remained at the pad during their turnarounds.

Quote
GW_Simulations - 13/10/2007  9:18 PM

As for Atlantis, I meant that if the rescue orbiter couldn't launch in time, could the crew risk re-entry in the damaged orbiter, if it were a choice between that, and running out of O2
They could, along with perhaps some improvised repairs (I'm assuming in this hypothetical the damage was considered unrepairable), but problems with the LON vehicle wouldn't change the outcome for the damaged orbiter.

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #33 on: 10/14/2007 01:39 pm »
Quote
psloss - 14/10/2007  2:14 PM
SSME changeout and the 51-F, STS-55, and STS-51 vehicles remained at the pad during their turnarounds.
Same thing for Challenger after the three SSME changeout following here first FRF prior to STS-6.
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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #34 on: 10/14/2007 01:48 pm »
Quote
DaveS - 14/10/2007  9:39 AM

Quote
psloss - 14/10/2007  2:14 PM
SSME changeout and the 51-F, STS-55, and STS-51 vehicles remained at the pad during their turnarounds.
Same thing for Challenger after the three SSME changeout following here first FRF prior to STS-6.
Curses! :)

Continuing with the trivia tangent, same thing after the 41-D and STS-49 FRFs, too, although only one engine was replaced after the 41-D FRF (the center).  Those were replacements, whereas the engines for STS-6 were repaired and reinstalled, except for 2011...and that was after the second FRF, which was done to find the hydrogen leak(s) detected in the first FRF.

Offline Shuttle Man

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #35 on: 10/14/2007 03:29 pm »
Quote
Rob in KC - 12/10/2007  3:23 PM

Rollaround :) Endeavour moves from Pad B to Pad A for STS-126, probably with the crawler changing direction at the folk in the crawlerway?

Correct.
Ex-Apollo, waiting for NASA to finish what we started.

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #36 on: 10/15/2007 03:59 am »
Isn't there a big drive off at the fork between Pad A and Pad B? Could the MLP turn around or is it easier just putting it into reverse?

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #37 on: 10/15/2007 11:02 am »
Quote
Maverick - 15/10/2007  5:59 AM

Isn't there a big drive off at the fork between Pad A and Pad B? Could the MLP turn around or is it easier just putting it into reverse?
Nitpick: Not MLP, but Crawler. The MLP is just that big boxy thing that rides on the Crawler. Easier to just put it into reverse.
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Offline tesheiner

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #38 on: 10/15/2007 12:12 pm »
If the crawler turns at the fork then the stack would be facing pad A with the shuttle's tail first. Wrong side, so turning is not an option even if physically possible.

Offline Rob in KC

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #39 on: 10/15/2007 06:27 pm »
Quote
Maverick - 14/10/2007  10:59 PM

Isn't there a big drive off at the fork between Pad A and Pad B?

Here's an image of that area, not doable.

Offline Davros

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #40 on: 10/16/2007 04:14 am »
Quote
Rob in KC - 15/10/2007  1:27 PM

Quote
Maverick - 14/10/2007  10:59 PM

Isn't there a big drive off at the fork between Pad A and Pad B?

Here's an image of that area, not doable.

What was that used for?

Offline MKremer

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Re: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #41 on: 10/16/2007 04:19 am »
That's where the old Mobile Service Structure was parked during the Apollo days.

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: STS-400 - NASA draws up their Hubble rescue plans
« Reply #42 on: 10/18/2007 10:32 am »
I might do another article on this after 120, as we're getting a lot of mission baseline 125 presentations into L2 this week and some include a lot more on STS-400.
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