Author Topic: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging  (Read 9166 times)

Offline Felix

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Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« on: 11/23/2007 10:04 pm »
"its suggestion of using unused agricultural and administrative funds from within the EU's budget has been opposed by a number of countries - notably Germany.

Friday's new proposal aims to ensure fair competition in the bidding for new contracts, and the German transport Ministry welcomed it as an acceptable compromise."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7109971.stm  


Offline mr.columbus

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RE: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #1 on: 11/24/2007 08:38 am »
It is about time that they agree on how to proceed with Galileo. Using agricultural money of about 1.6 billion EUR is certainly a good idea to finance Galileo - from a political perspective it shows in what areas the EU should actually spend its money in, that is science, technology and research and NOT farm subsidies.

I don't mind so much that Galileo will now only be fully operational in 2013 (as planned), it was clear for a while that 2010 is not going to be achieved.

Offline CentEur

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RE: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #2 on: 11/26/2007 07:12 pm »
Galileo finances agreed (at last).

Financial Times (English):
http://ft.onet.pl/0,4049,galileo_project_clears_funding_hurdle,artykul_ft.html

The European way of reaching compromise between 27 countries is usually arduous, protracted and ... successful.

Online mtakala24

RE: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #3 on: 11/26/2007 08:39 pm »
Quote
mr.columbus - 24/11/2007  11:38 AM

It is about time that they agree on how to proceed with Galileo. Using agricultural money of about 1.6 billion EUR is certainly a good idea to finance Galileo

Do you realise how many people will lose their jobs - at least here in southern parts of Finland, even the bigger agricultural installations are in danger.

The agricultural money that those farms have been receiving, is described as "temporary permanent subsidies" :) Now they are arguing about what temporary permanent thing means :)

Offline EE Scott

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #4 on: 11/26/2007 08:46 pm »
So the farmers are subsidising the aerospace engineers?  I have to believe there will be a big political price to pay for this decision, if this is indeed how they are finding a way to fund this project.
Scott

Offline meiza

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #5 on: 11/26/2007 08:58 pm »
The whole Farming Thing is quite unhealthy in the EU in the sense that the farm subsidies form a big part of the EU budget and the farmers have to fill tons of paperwork and there are lots of weird things...
It's all a mess. I think the latest iteration is that the amount of subsidy is not related to how much you produce.
It's just that countries want to keep farming for themselves even if it would make some economical sense to move it all to cheap labor good farmland countires. But from a security and health point of view it doesn't make sense.
It's of course also a political issue, farmers form a big voting block. People in the cities do benefit from farm subsidies in the form of cheaper food. But overall the money transfer from cities to the country is a big sum.

Offline Lampyridae

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #6 on: 11/27/2007 04:12 am »
In South Africa, you could quite easily find imported EU food that was cheaper than the local stuff, such is the strength of their subsidy. It's a problem for the agricultural sectors of 3rd World countries, but not that much of a problem.

Offline mr.columbus

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RE: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #7 on: 11/27/2007 06:21 am »
Quote
mtakala24 - 26/11/2007  4:39 PM

Quote
mr.columbus - 24/11/2007  11:38 AM

It is about time that they agree on how to proceed with Galileo. Using agricultural money of about 1.6 billion EUR is certainly a good idea to finance Galileo

Do you realise how many people will lose their jobs - at least here in southern parts of Finland, even the bigger agricultural installations are in danger.

The agricultural money that those farms have been receiving, is described as "temporary permanent subsidies" :) Now they are arguing about what temporary permanent thing means :)

The answer to your question on how many people will lose their jobs in Finland or elsewhere because of the Galileo funding decision is: none. The 1.6 billion now used are unused money which would be returned to the memberstates into their general budget - one reason Germany was against the funding proposal, because - as the largest net-payer - it would have received about 500 million back from those 1.6 billion.

Offline EE Scott

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #8 on: 11/27/2007 10:33 am »
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Lampyridae - 26/11/2007  12:12 AM

In South Africa, you could quite easily find imported EU food that was cheaper than the local stuff, such is the strength of their subsidy. It's a problem for the agricultural sectors of 3rd World countries, but not that much of a problem.

Unfortunately, the US has massive agricultural subsidies as well, and gets similar complaints from its trading partners of dumping of agricultural products at prices that undercut local food producers.  It is a very unhealthy situation.  Just like in Europe, in the US the agricultural lobby is very powerful.  I think it would be great if the US could redirect these massively distorting, market warping subsidies toward NASA.
Scott

Offline sammie

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #9 on: 11/27/2007 02:12 pm »
We can dream about reforming Agricultural subsidies, in all rich world countries (I believe Japan is the worst offender, but that doesn't excuse the other rich countries)

Point in case being, hopefully wasted agricultural subsidies will be transferred to a largely redundant and national prestige project like Galileo, it's bad, but not as bad as the original destination
"The dreams ain't broken downhere, they're just walking with a limp"

Offline claudiadg

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #10 on: 11/27/2007 06:14 pm »
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sammie - 27/11/2007  3:12 PM

Point in case being, hopefully wasted agricultural subsidies will be transferred to a largely redundant and national prestige project like Galileo, it's bad, but not as bad as the original destination

Why do you think it's a largely redudant & national prestige project??

Offline mr.columbus

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #11 on: 11/27/2007 07:44 pm »
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sammie - 27/11/2007  10:12 AM

Point in case being, hopefully wasted agricultural subsidies will be transferred to a largely redundant and national prestige project like Galileo, it's bad, but not as bad as the original destination

For one side the system is "redundant", the other would say it is competition and an improvement to the GPS side. I think the latter is correct, Galileo will be an improvement over GPS and regarding competition already lead to the US thinking about an upgrade to GPS (GPS 2). And even if it just were redundant, it would still be worth it as a backup and in cases when the US deliberately scrambles GPS.

As to "national prestige project", I think with regard to Galileo that is a non-starter argument as we are talking about an EU project, which per se can't be about national prestige.

Offline EE Scott

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #12 on: 11/27/2007 08:42 pm »
It would clearly be a redundant system, that is self evident.  The argument that the US could scramble the signal is valid though.  However even that is going away, as the US has made the decision to order replacement satellites that do not have the ability to scramble the signal (this feature's demise will of course take a loooong time to implement).  Competition?  Hardly.  GPS is not made to collect revenue, its signals are there for the taking, free.  Its primary function is not to provide a service to any consumer market, it just does that as a secondary service.  GPS upgrade in the future?  Well, yes, but that has been happening all the time and is a continuous process.  Each new generation of GPS satellites has improved capabilities/resolution.  By the time Galileo is operational GPS will be improved over what it is today.  I see Galileo as a very expensive aerospace jobs program.  Not necessarily a bad thing, but it is what it is.  As mentioned, there are worse ways to spend tax revenues.
Scott

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #13 on: 11/28/2007 01:44 am »
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mr.columbus - 27/11/2007  8:44 PM

As to "national prestige project", I think with regard to Galileo that is a non-starter argument as we are talking about an EU project, which per se can't be about national prestige.

It is very easy for the Galileo project to be about national prestige.  The EU's rulers see it as a single country with places like France and Germany as Lander.  The dream about repeating the process by which England's American colonies went independent and jointed together beneath the federal government to form the United States of America.

Offline EE Scott

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #14 on: 11/28/2007 02:14 am »
I think if I were a European citizen, or rather a citizen of a country within the EU, I would want to see Galileo built.  Especially if it could be financed by a shuffling around of revenues that would have to be given back if not spent anyway.  It would strengthen the continent's industrial base and make it that much less dependent on the US.  However since I am not a European, it just seems to me like a large amount of resources to commit to put up what amounts to a third global positioning system.  I am tired of me-too projects (like all these countries setting their sites on the moon), and would like to see somebody, anybody, push the frontier outward a bit.
Scott

Offline Jester

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #15 on: 11/28/2007 07:38 am »
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A_M_Swallow - 28/11/2007  3:44 AM

Quote
mr.columbus - 27/11/2007  8:44 PM

As to "national prestige project", I think with regard to Galileo that is a non-starter argument as we are talking about an EU project, which per se can't be about national prestige.

It is very easy for the Galileo project to be about national prestige.  The EU's rulers see it as a single country with places like France and Germany as Lander.  The dream about repeating the process by which England's American colonies went independent and jointed together beneath the federal government to form the United States of America.

Just my 2 cents:
Problem with that is, that America was formed by ex-euro people who started the USA and built it together, so they FEEL american, I can ofcourse only speak for myself, but I FEEL Dutch, I don't feel being EU, sure my country is part of the EU, but thats it, the whole problem with the EU is that, sure politics wants you to be a european, but ask any dutch, english, german, france person and they will always say I'm German or I'm Dutch, never european, so it cant be a national prestige project, and thats the problem (partly) in building Galileo, every country wants a part of Galileo and look what mess it was when companies from several countries try to get the best for their country.
I have good hopes that now ESA took the lead in this and with EU backing, it should be ok.
(don't get me wrong, I don't think ESA is "all that" however they have way more experiance in doing this things then your average company co-op)
Now lets all shut up about it, get this darn GIOVE-B thing launched, and to spreak with a famous group of english people "GET ON WITH IT" (c) Monty python


Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #16 on: 11/28/2007 09:02 am »
I do not feel like a European national either.

There is a simple alternative to Galileo, just cancel it before it does any more harm.

Offline CentEur

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #17 on: 11/28/2007 09:14 am »
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A_M_Swallow - 28/11/2007  11:02 AM

I do not feel like a European national either.

There is a simple alternative to Galileo, just cancel it before it does any more harm.

What harm has Galileo done exactly?

Offline claudiadg

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #18 on: 11/28/2007 02:39 pm »
But would you say that the Costellation program is "a largely redudant & national prestige project"?

Five years ago, I interviewed the late Antonio Rodotà, then ESA DG, on Galileo, and he told me something I still consider very relevant on the topic. He stressed that, beside the technological and industrial issues, Galileo was important because, being the first common infrastructure built by Europe, it was going to be "an element of cohesion in the European system". Building Galileo, he said, means helping building Europe. (BTW, building Europe isn't in *any* way comparable to the birth of the United States, but I don't want to go off topic)

I'd love to see all the national space agencies merge in one World Space Exploration Organisation, but this is not going to happen very soon, I'm afraid. I can get it wrong, but the feeling I have reading this thread is that we are judging Galileo more as a political issue than a space program, or, rather, that we are expressing our feelings towards Europe. And Europe isn't a space program, definitively :-)

Offline mr.columbus

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #19 on: 11/28/2007 02:46 pm »
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claudiadg - 28/11/2007  10:39 AM

But would you say that the Costellation program is "a largely redudant & national prestige project"?

I think that is a very good point to counter the arguments brought forward here.

In addition, people seem not to have realized yet that Galileo is going to be more precise than the GPS system (even if the US gets GPS 2 ready it will be less precise) - so of course there will be competition, as there will be a new system that offers a more capable technology instrument to civilians than the old system. That is of course also the reason why China, India, Israel, South Korea, Ukraine etc. have joined the Galileo program and committed several hundred million euro for its implementation - and as far as I see it those countries would not commit funds to it if it just were "largely redundant" or a "mere European job program."

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