Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5  (Read 764078 times)

Offline rfmwguy

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This is a thread - Thread 5 in the series - focused on objective analysis of whether the EM Drive (a cavity resonating at microwave frequencies) reported "thrust force" is an experimental artifact or whether it is a real propulsion effect  that can be used for space applications, and if so, in discussing those possible space propulsion applications.

Objective skeptical inquiry is strongly welcome.   Disagreements should be expressed politely, concentrating on the technical, engineering and scientific aspects, instead of focusing on people.   As such, the use of experimental data, mathematics, physics, engineering, drawings, spreadsheets and computer simulations are strongly encouraged, while subjective wordy statements are discouraged. Peer-reviewed information from reputable journals is strongly encouraged.  Please acknowledge the authors and respect copyrights.


Commercial advertisement is discouraged.


In order to minimize bandwidth and  maximize information content, when quoting, one can use an ellipsis (...) to indicate the clipped material.

Only use the embed [img ]http://code when the image is small enough to fit within the page. Anything wider than the width of the page makes the page unreadable as it stretches it (we're working on auto reduction, but different browsers work different ways, etc.)

This link

http://math.typeit.org/

enables typing of mathematical symbols, including differentiation and integration, Greek letters, etc.

--

Links to previous threads:

Thread 1:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29276.0

Thread 2:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36313.0

Thread 3:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37642.0

Thread 4:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38203.0

--

Entry level thread:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37438.0

Baseline NSF Article:
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/04/evaluating-nasas-futuristic-em-drive/



This is the link to the EM Drive wiki that users are encouraged to contribute to, edit for accuracy, and build as a knowledge resource for the EM Drive:

http://emdrive.wiki




Chris note: Please note all posts need to be useful and worthwhile or they will be removed via moderation. This subject has large interest, with over 3 million thread reads and 800,000 article reads. Most people are reading and not posting, so when you post it is in front of a very large audience.

Also, and it should go without saying, amateur experiments are discouraged unless you have gained educated and/or professional advice for safety reasons.


« Last Edit: 10/04/2015 08:29 PM by Chris Bergin »

Offline rfmwguy

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NSF-1701 Paper Update. With thanks to many, I am releasing my paper a day early. I look forward to your commentary.

All the best,
Dave

« Last Edit: 10/04/2015 08:28 PM by Chris Bergin »

Offline rfmwguy

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Disappointed to notice wallofwolfstreet has left the building here and on reddit apparently. Anyone have the details on this? I enjoyed his posts, even tho he was not a firm believer...

I appreciate that you feel my posts have been constructive.

I haven't left actually, just have some other things taking up more time.  I deleted my reddit account because whenever I commented on /r/emdrive, I found myself wasting time just looking through random posts on /r/all.  Someone with better impulse control could have saved the account and just posted less, but I went for the burnt bridge option.   

Great wolfy. glad you remained here. Ya know, we need all angles to help sort this thing out. Stay "you" and it will help  8)
« Last Edit: 10/04/2015 09:59 PM by Chris Bergin »

Offline rfmwguy

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While Doc's been busy, it is my privilege to kick off Thread 5 after this topic has had over 3 million views! Onward to 4 million...

Offline TheUberOverLord

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Curious?

While I do understand and respect that with the limited and different results produced and published by several tests so far. That nothing really can be concluded at the moment. As the cause of any positive results achieved. I still have one question:

At this point. Does anyone feel that somehow someway that at least some energy is being converted to mass or does everyone feel that energy itself remains entirely energy with no portion being converted to mass and energy alone, is the sole cause of the forces being seen in some results?

Better references to what I am getting at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence

http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/newsandeventspggrp/imperialcollege/newssummary/news_16-5-2014-15-32-44

Don
EM Drive builders can use these free Interfaces to show their tests live using any IP Cameras in websites Click for live demo examples

Offline rfmwguy

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Curious?

While I do understand and respect that with the limited and different results produced and published by several tests so far. That nothing really can be concluded at the moment. As the cause of any positive results achieved. I still have one question:

At this point. Does anyone feel that somehow someway that at least some energy is being converted to mass or does everyone feel that energy itself remains entirely energy with no portion being converted to mass and energy alone, is the sole cause of the forces being seen in some results?

Better references to what I am getting at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence

http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/newsandeventspggrp/imperialcollege/newssummary/news_16-5-2014-15-32-44

Don
Wish I knew the answer to that. On reddit, someone made a comparison to the big bang...matter from nothing. I remain on the fence. I feel there is an emdrive effect, but it very well might be a repulsive or attractive force at the quantum particle or wave level. I think we'll soon have the answer late this year or next.

Offline TheUberOverLord

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Curious?

While I do understand and respect that with the limited and different results produced and published by several tests so far. That nothing really can be concluded at the moment. As the cause of any positive results achieved. I still have one question:

At this point. Does anyone feel that somehow someway that at least some energy is being converted to mass or does everyone feel that energy itself remains entirely energy with no portion being converted to mass and energy alone, is the sole cause of the forces being seen in some results?

Better references to what I am getting at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence

http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/newsandeventspggrp/imperialcollege/newssummary/news_16-5-2014-15-32-44

Don
Wish I knew the answer to that. On reddit, someone made a comparison to the big bang...matter from nothing. I remain on the fence. I feel there is an emdrive effect, but it very well might be a repulsive or attractive force at the quantum particle or wave level. I think we'll soon have the answer late this year or next.

Thanks.

I also should have included this reference as well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_mass

Looking forward to your 2016 tests as well.

Don
EM Drive builders can use these free Interfaces to show their tests live using any IP Cameras in websites Click for live demo examples

Offline graybeardsyseng

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NSF-1701 Paper Update. With thanks to many, I am releasing my paper a day early. I look forward to your commentary.

All the best,
Dave

Dave,

I really like your report - I think this sort of formal documentation is critical to making people fully aware of DIY builders and their contributions to this original research.

I particularly like your contribution to the discussion of Q and the introduction of the QR concept.   I am still going over the implications of the math - I had missed that Yang and NASA had such wildly different methodologies -  I had been focusing too much on the 1-port vs 2-port debate.   However, I will be including a QR calculation in any results I obtain.  I'm going to look at it a little more tonight but I think this approach will be very significant with wideband RF sources like maggies.     

Shell - how are you approaching the "Q conundrum"? 

Herm
EMdrive - finally - microwaves are good for something other than heating ramen noodles and leftover pizza ;-)

Offline rfmwguy

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NSF-1701 Paper Update. With thanks to many, I am releasing my paper a day early. I look forward to your commentary.

All the best,
Dave

Dave,

I really like your report - I think this sort of formal documentation is critical to making people fully aware of DIY builders and their contributions to this original research.

I particularly like your contribution to the discussion of Q and the introduction of the QR concept.   I am still going over the implications of the math - I had missed that Yang and NASA had such wildly different methodologies -  I had been focusing too much on the 1-port vs 2-port debate.   However, I will be including a QR calculation in any results I obtain.  I'm going to look at it a little more tonight but I think this approach will be very significant with wideband RF sources like maggies.     

Shell - how are you approaching the "Q conundrum"? 

Herm
Thanks Herm, the Qr concept is akin to a shape factor, i.e. a 30 to 3dB shape factor being 2.5:1 (or whatever) when talking about bandpass filters. I think it has some merit to "force" unification of methodology.

<edit> clarification of shape factor example
« Last Edit: 10/05/2015 02:03 AM by rfmwguy »

Offline Star One

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This topic seems to be on one of its periodic slow periods. I suppose there is quite a bit of waiting around for various results from the professional groups as well as more home experimenters to get things fired up.
« Last Edit: 10/04/2015 10:50 PM by Star One »

Offline SeeShells

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Curious?

While I do understand and respect that with the limited and different results produced and published by several tests so far. That nothing really can be concluded at the moment. As the cause of any positive results achieved. I still have one question:

At this point. Does anyone feel that somehow someway that at least some energy is being converted to mass or does everyone feel that energy itself remains entirely energy with no portion being converted to mass and energy alone, is the sole cause of the forces being seen in some results?

Better references to what I am getting at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence

http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/newsandeventspggrp/imperialcollege/newssummary/news_16-5-2014-15-32-44

Don
While the effect may prove out to be real. Like many things that have been discovered in the past with no clear theories to lead the building it will remain in dispute for some time.
Even though flight has been around for over a hundred years there has been dispute.
https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/lift1.html

So that leaves it to the builders of the Drive to build and evaluate almost by trial and error as to what works and what doesn't. Build by build, data bit by data bit (No Bad Data). I know it's a slap in the face to the many theorists who are trying so hard to come up with answers, but I believe the theories will abound for a long time.

I have given thoughts as to what is causing this thrust, I have my pet ones and even one that some say can't work, but I firmly believe you need to take into consideration CoM and CoE and there must be a "hole" of some force made by the Drive interacting with the outside frame reference to produce thrust.

Over the months of my build (I even started in that direction with my octagonal walled drive) it became clear that's it's not enough for me to get some tiny thrust or even to be first, but the real work and real need became to be able to test out the different theories to provide clear and concise data. Maybe I'll get lucky and hit a home run with one of the designs backing a theory. That's when the real fun will begin.

But this weekend I've taken off to split wood and get ready for the winter that is coming and the old bones are screaming "I hate you" :)

Shell

PS: I also want to say this group is some of the finest people I've ever had the joy of working with, my deepest respect goes to you all.


Offline SeeShells

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This topic seems to be on one of its periodic slow periods. I suppose there is quite a bit of waiting around for various results from the professional groups as well as more home experimenters to get things fired up.
http://www.trekcore.com/audio/toscomputer/voice/tos_working.mp3

Working hard to get'er done Star One. This next week is going to be very busy as I'm just getting the last few items in for the build and I hope to have something very soon!

Shell

Offline TheUberOverLord

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Curious?

While I do understand and respect that with the limited and different results produced and published by several tests so far. That nothing really can be concluded at the moment. As the cause of any positive results achieved. I still have one question:

At this point. Does anyone feel that somehow someway that at least some energy is being converted to mass or does everyone feel that energy itself remains entirely energy with no portion being converted to mass and energy alone, is the sole cause of the forces being seen in some results?

Better references to what I am getting at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence

http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/newsandeventspggrp/imperialcollege/newssummary/news_16-5-2014-15-32-44

Don
While the effect may prove out to be real. Like many things that have been discovered in the past with no clear theories to lead the building it will remain in dispute for some time.
Even though flight has been around for over a hundred years there has been dispute.
https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/lift1.html

So that leaves it to the builders of the Drive to build and evaluate almost by trial and error as to what works and what doesn't. Build by build, data bit by data bit (No Bad Data). I know it's a slap in the face to the many theorists who are trying so hard to come up with answers, but I believe the theories will abound for a long time.

I have given thoughts as to what is causing this thrust, I have my pet ones and even one that some say can't work, but I firmly believe you need to take into consideration CoM and CoE and there must be a "hole" of some force made by the Drive interacting with the outside frame reference to produce thrust.

Over the months of my build (I even started in that direction with my octagonal walled drive) it became clear that's it's not enough for me to get some tiny thrust or even to be first, but the real work and real need became to be able to test out the different theories to provide clear and concise data. Maybe I'll get lucky and hit a home run with one of the designs backing a theory. That's when the real fun will begin.

But this weekend I've taken off to split wood and get ready for the winter that is coming and the old bones are screaming "I hate you" :)

Shell

PS: I also want to say this group is some of the finest people I've ever had the joy of working with, my deepest respect goes to you all.

Thanks Shell.

Looking forward to your tests as well.

Don
EM Drive builders can use these free Interfaces to show their tests live using any IP Cameras in websites Click for live demo examples

Offline SeeShells

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While Doc's been busy, it is my privilege to kick off Thread 5 after this topic has had over 3 million views! Onward to 4 million...
RFMWGUY!

I heard a rumor you beamed Dr. Rodel via EMDrive into another dimension.. another dimension - a dimension of sound, a dimension of sight, a dimension of mind. You're moving into a land of both shadow and substance, ...
Getting scary rfmwguy...

Shell

Offline rfmwguy

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[quote ::) author=rfmwguy link=topic=38577.msg1432708#msg1432708 date=1443991863]
While Doc's been busy, it is my privilege to kick off Thread 5 after this topic has had over 3 million views! Onward to 4 million...
Quote
RFMWGUY!

I heard a rumor you beamed Dr. Rodel via EMDrive into another dimension.. another dimension - a dimension of sound, a dimension of sight, a dimension of mind. You're moving into a land of both shadow and substance, ...
Getting scary rfmwguy...

Shell
I will beam him back soon, shell...just before your first thermal test...no pressure  ::)
« Last Edit: 10/05/2015 01:10 PM by rfmwguy »

Offline SteveD

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Here's what I think is causing the EMDrive to work: it's a bug in the functioning of the universe. 

Quantum physics says that energy exists in discrete packets.  These packets are defined by the plank constant.  A plank constant is the energy in one oscillation (1hz) of rf frequency.  You can't have a a fractional frequency.  There is no 107.4 hz.  The universe won't let you do it.  You either have to broadcast on 107hz or 108hz.

Einstein says that all mass is made up of two things.  A rest mass and energy.  Energy has a mass of m=e/c^2.  Your desk actually has a lot of energy in it, making up the bulk of its mass.  You just aren't going to get that energy out without splitting or fusing atoms.  Moreover relativity wants very precise answer.  This much energy must always, and without fail have the same mass.

Here's the thing.  Almost everything we do with light is governed by the number of photons.  Your wireless router is putting out X photons which each have a frequency of around 2.5ghz right now.  When you turn the power up, more photons (a higher amplitude wave) comes out.  When it comes to energy, all that really matters to us (most of the time) is amplitude.  More photons = more energy.

It doesn't work that way for the photons.  A photons frequency equals the amount of energy it contains.  You might be able to have a single photon that contained 1 watt of energy all by itself, but it'd be a high powered gamma ray that you wouldn't want to be anywhere near.  When a photon is emitted it gives the atom that is emitting it momentum equal to what that atom would have gained had it shot out a particle with the same mass at the speed of light.  This energy has to come from somewhere.  It comes from redshifting the photon.  The photon looses a couple hz of frequency as it transfers energy to the atom.

Relativity says that it doesn't matter if you have 10 photons at 100hz or 100 photons at 10hz, both groups of photons must have the exact same mass.  On the other hand, quantum physics says that a photon has to be redshifted in 1hz intervals.  10 Photons at 99hz do not have the same energy as 100 photons at 9hz.  You have a rounding error, a bug in the programming of the universe.

If you have a photon bouncing between the same two points, the bug is symmetrical.  The EMDrive effect does not show up in a symmetrical resonance cavity.  Start bouncing light around a non-symmetrical cavity,and the rounding error can compound.  I did up a spreadsheet earlier that showed the error (though only on one column, I had the output rounded in the others so that drive builders could see if they were in danger of redshifting their photons outside of their frustums bandwidth).  That would imply that one side is being moved by a heavier mass than what is hitting the other side (and also that an ELF transmitter would produce a photon rocket effect many times stronger than it is "suppose" to). 


Offline TheTraveller

Maybe Dr. Rodal is working with Dr. White on the next version of this recent paper?

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20140013174.pdf

Human Outer Solar System Exploration via Q-Thruster

Or maybe doing work for Dr. White on the next EMDrive vac results paper?
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline TheTraveller

Dr. Mike McCulloch has a new paper on why he believes the EMDrive works.

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/282357284_Testing_quantised_inertia_on_the_emdrive

Testing quantised inertia on the EMDrive
« Last Edit: 10/05/2015 04:17 AM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline zen-in

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Very interesting report; another anomaly.  Newton's laws still intact though.   There is a professor in Greece who claims that an open cone made of YBCO superconductor, with a magnet at the apex generates a thrust.  If this seems off-topic I apologize and will not mind if this post is expunged.   However it is an interesting claim since the thrust measured is in the milliNewtons.    This professor has also been able to patent his device.  Below is a simple drawing of this device, from his patent.
http://etheric.com/nassikas-thruster-light-years-ahead-of-the-dawn-spacecraft-ion-propulsion-system/
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.htm&r=1&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=PTXT&S1=8952773.PN.&OS=PN/8952773&RS=PN/8952773

Offline Chrochne

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Maybe Dr. Rodal is working with Dr. White on the next version of this recent paper?

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20140013174.pdf

Human Outer Solar System Exploration via Q-Thruster

Or maybe doing work for Dr. White on the next EMDrive vac results paper?

How much is this paper recent? Did I missed something?  :o

By the way, I was thinking the same about Dr. Rodal. This silence is similar to that of the NASA folks.
NASA you have to release your people from cages :D We miss them dearly here.

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