Author Topic: Private Moon Landing in the works?  (Read 152821 times)

Offline Warren Platts

Re: Private Moon Landing in the works?
« Reply #80 on: 11/17/2012 04:38 pm »
Some uninformed speculation:

Since it is well known that NASA is currently developing plans to explore space beyond low earth orbit, is it possible that the subject of this thread is simply an offer by a consortium of private companies to provide an affordable lunar landing mission? In other words, is it possible that the customer is NASA?

NASA money is as green as anybody else's. Only problem is it comes with lots of strings attached...
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Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Private Moon Landing in the works?
« Reply #81 on: 11/17/2012 04:53 pm »
Some uninformed speculation:

Since it is well known that NASA is currently developing plans to explore space beyond low earth orbit, is it possible that the subject of this thread is simply an offer by a consortium of private companies to provide an affordable lunar landing mission? In other words, is it possible that the customer is NASA?

NASA money is as green as anybody else's. Only problem is it comes with lots of strings attached...
I had the same thought when the news first came out. It would be an interesting extension of the Commercial Crew model…
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Offline HIP2BSQRE

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Re: Private Moon Landing in the works?
« Reply #82 on: 11/17/2012 05:00 pm »
Maybe I am wrong, but so far on the moon--NASA has brought back stuff and guess who it belongs to??  NASA.  So if a company brought back stuff--guess who it would belong to--the company.  As they possession is 9/10ths of the law.  Even if someone were to try and claim a companies--what agruement would they use?  I could see a company building a small habitat, processing metals and then claiming x square miles for there development--who would stop them?  No-one.  :-)  The treaties do not say anything about not allowing private ownership.

Offline rcoppola

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Re: Private Moon Landing in the works?
« Reply #83 on: 11/17/2012 05:23 pm »
Maybe I am wrong, but so far on the moon--NASA has brought back stuff and guess who it belongs to??  NASA.  So if a company brought back stuff--guess who it would belong to--the company.  As they possession is 9/10ths of the law.  Even if someone were to try and claim a companies--what agruement would they use?  I could see a company building a small habitat, processing metals and then claiming x square miles for there development--who would stop them?  No-one.  :-)  The treaties do not say anything about not allowing private ownership.
Actually, the treaty is rather explicit with regards to "claiming x square miles for their development". See Article II:

"Outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies, is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means."

I would submit that "National" would be extended to Private. I'd like to see it make a clear distinction between national and private. Which is why it needs to be amended for today's possibilities, not the 1960s.
« Last Edit: 11/17/2012 05:28 pm by rcoppola »
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Offline go4mars

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Re: Private Moon Landing in the works?
« Reply #84 on: 11/17/2012 05:52 pm »
If I had time in the next few weeks, I'd write a screenplay based largely on this thread, and film it quick and low budget with some friends. 

So the dominion of space comes down to a race between private industry (individual incentive) and China (communal incentive).           ?

Some themes change in guise over time, but remain the same at the core.

Want to come with me to buy a trillion barrel bitumen deposit I recently discovered?  Seriously.  Individual incentive is under-estimated as a creativity impellor imo.
« Last Edit: 11/17/2012 07:24 pm by go4mars »
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Offline rcoppola

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Re: Private Moon Landing in the works?
« Reply #85 on: 11/17/2012 06:16 pm »
If I had time in the next few weeks, I'd write a screenplay based largely on this thread, and film it quick and low budget with some friends. 

So the dominion of space comes down to a race between private industry (individual incentive) and China (communal incentive).           ?

Some themes change in guise over time, but remain the same at the core.

Want to come with me to buy a trillion barrel bitumen deposit I recently discovered?  Individual incentive is under-estimated as a creativity impellor imo.

Astor, Guggenheim, Vanderbilt, Carnegie, Rockefeller, Morgan, Ford, Wright, Jobs, Gates etc. Individual incentive is everything. As such, I'd like to see it unleashed with regards to this possible Moon endeavor.

Any laws / treaties on the books that limit or deny the full potential of this private accelerated outward expansion from occurring, need to be amended.

It's not a sexy part of this conversation, but it is an extremely important one. And one you will hear much more of in the coming months and years.

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Offline spacedem

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Re: Private Moon Landing in the works?
« Reply #86 on: 11/17/2012 06:21 pm »
Helium-3? Why?

I know, I'm having a hard time trying to see them justify a commercial endeavour centered around He3.

There is a big part of me inside thinking that something WAS found on the moon, something worth persuing, and this is the attempt to lay claim on it....

I keep telling you guys:



It's not quite commercially viable to bring gold back from the moon, nor Platinum. Now something like Iridium - maybe, but there has to be an absolute use & need for it, perhaps a new technology, that would be worth while.

Why bother bringing it back?  If you're going to use it as money keep it there and issue gold certificates.  It couldn't get more secure...

Offline Danderman

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Re: Private Moon Landing in the works?
« Reply #87 on: 11/17/2012 06:28 pm »
I'd like to see the 1967 treaty challenged and amended. If you allow private rights to certain resources, it will make the 1960s space race look like 2 guys racing go-carts. IMO...

Most unlikely to happen. That treaty was signed for one main reason: To save money for the state by removing all incentive to invest in space...

In the current climate of austerity, getting rid of a treaty whose main reason was to save money is the last thing on any politician's mind. And private enterprise does not make or break international treaties.

The 1967 Outer Space Treaty provides for private property rights as currently written. Companies like Planetary Resources are fully aware of this, and will conduct their business under the treaty.

To attempt to change the treaty would cause uncertainty in the industry, which is not a good thing.

Offline HIP2BSQRE

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Re: Private Moon Landing in the works?
« Reply #88 on: 11/17/2012 06:29 pm »
Maybe I am wrong, but so far on the moon--NASA has brought back stuff and guess who it belongs to??  NASA.  So if a company brought back stuff--guess who it would belong to--the company.  As they possession is 9/10ths of the law.  Even if someone were to try and claim a companies--what agruement would they use?  I could see a company building a small habitat, processing metals and then claiming x square miles for there development--who would stop them?  No-one.  :-)  The treaties do not say anything about not allowing private ownership.
Actually, the treaty is rather explicit with regards to "claiming x square miles for their development". See Article II:

"Outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies, is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means."

I would submit that "National" would be extended to Private. I'd like to see it make a clear distinction between national and private. Which is why it needs to be amended for today's possibilities, not the 1960s.

As you mentioned...we are not talking about National approations..

Offline Danderman

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Re: Private Moon Landing in the works?
« Reply #89 on: 11/17/2012 06:29 pm »
Maybe I am wrong, but so far on the moon--NASA has brought back stuff and guess who it belongs to??  NASA.  So if a company brought back stuff--guess who it would belong to--the company.  As they possession is 9/10ths of the law.  Even if someone were to try and claim a companies--what agruement would they use?  I could see a company building a small habitat, processing metals and then claiming x square miles for there development--who would stop them?  No-one.  :-)  The treaties do not say anything about not allowing private ownership.

The Moon has been mined and the proceeds have been sold commercially.

Offline rcoppola

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Re: Private Moon Landing in the works?
« Reply #90 on: 11/17/2012 07:00 pm »
I'd like to see the 1967 treaty challenged and amended. If you allow private rights to certain resources, it will make the 1960s space race look like 2 guys racing go-carts. IMO...

Most unlikely to happen. That treaty was signed for one main reason: To save money for the state by removing all incentive to invest in space...

In the current climate of austerity, getting rid of a treaty whose main reason was to save money is the last thing on any politician's mind. And private enterprise does not make or break international treaties.

The 1967 Outer Space Treaty provides for private property rights as currently written. Companies like Planetary Resources are fully aware of this, and will conduct their business under the treaty.

To attempt to change the treaty would cause uncertainty in the industry, which is not a good thing.

That's interesting, perhaps I missed it. Can you point me to where it specifically provides for private property ownership? Specifically, my ability to own and manage an actual parcel of celestial land?

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Offline rcoppola

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Re: Private Moon Landing in the works?
« Reply #91 on: 11/17/2012 07:10 pm »
A very interesting article with regards to Private Property rights in Space.

http://cei.org/news-releases/new-study-calls-recognition-private-property-claims-space
« Last Edit: 11/17/2012 07:13 pm by rcoppola »
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Offline Nathan

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Re: Private Moon Landing in the works?
« Reply #92 on: 11/17/2012 07:43 pm »
I'd like to see the 1967 treaty challenged and amended. If you allow private rights to certain resources, it will make the 1960s space race look like 2 guys racing go-carts. IMO...

Most unlikely to happen. That treaty was signed for one main reason: To save money for the state by removing all incentive to invest in space...

In the current climate of austerity, getting rid of a treaty whose main reason was to save money is the last thing on any politician's mind. And private enterprise does not make or break international treaties.

The 1967 Outer Space Treaty provides for private property rights as currently written. Companies like Planetary Resources are fully aware of this, and will conduct their business under the treaty.

To attempt to change the treaty would cause uncertainty in the industry, which is not a good thing.

That's interesting, perhaps I missed it. Can you point me to where it specifically provides for private property ownership? Specifically, my ability to own and manage an actual parcel of celestial land?


The poster above was referring to private property but not necessarily land ownership

Article VIII
A State Party to the Treaty on whose registry an object launched into outer space is carried shall retain jurisdiction and control over such object, and over any personnel thereof, while in outer space or on a celestial body. Ownership of objects launched into outer space, including objects landed or constructed on a celestial body, and of their component parts, is not affected by their presence in outer space or on a celestial body or by their return to the Earth. Such objects or component parts found beyond the limits of the State Party to the Treaty on whose registry they are carried shall be returned to that State Party, which shall, upon request, furnish iden- tifying data prior to their return

Edit: changed "right" to "ownership"
« Last Edit: 11/17/2012 07:46 pm by Nathan »
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Offline Danderman

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Re: Private Moon Landing in the works?
« Reply #93 on: 11/17/2012 08:08 pm »
That's interesting, perhaps I missed it. Can you point me to where it specifically provides for private property ownership? Specifically, my ability to own and manage an actual parcel of celestial land?



You are confusing private property ownership with private property rights.

Please advise what aspect of the "private moon landing" we are discussing here is impacted by the difference between property rights and property ownership.

A concrete example is that a ship in international waters has the right of control over the water that is beneath and around the ship, although the owners of the ship do not own that part of the sea. Such a regime has worked just fine for the purpose of supporting ocean navigation. A similar legal framework exists for outer space, so that a "company" that landed something on the Moon would have all rights over the territory it controls except ownership.


« Last Edit: 11/17/2012 08:11 pm by Danderman »

Offline rcoppola

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Re: Private Moon Landing in the works?
« Reply #94 on: 11/17/2012 08:35 pm »
I'm not so much confusing them as I am pointing out that this treaty provides very little legal or regulatory guidance for what's coming.

Namely, the method for which a private company or citizen could purchase land rights and usage that can, at any time in the future, be sold or rented to another commercial or Govt entity.  Among many other issues.

There are many historical land-rights precedents to guide us, including our own western expansion.

Might as well start the legal briefs now and get some congressional committee hearings going.

As for what aspect of this particular "private moon landing" is impacted, I can't answer that since none of us know what their actual intentions are.

Suffice to say, I think it prudent to start to build out the legal means by which an individual or corporate investor can legally purchase land for either his/her rights to use or to rent / sell those rights to others for use while maintaining land ownership. It begins to define a market of "worth" and will spur, imo, the next great expansion.



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Offline Warren Platts

Re: Private Moon Landing in the works?
« Reply #95 on: 11/17/2012 08:46 pm »
Quote
property rights ... It's not a sexy part of this conversation, but it is an extremely important one.

Look guys, we can go on for pages and pages and pages over this. It's already been done in numerous threads.

So what do you say we start a separate thread so we can discuss this issue ad infinitum to our hearts' content? That way we can save a lot of reading time and carpel tonel syndrome for the lurkers who are specifically interested in the Private Moon Landing that is in the Works, and not necessarily interested in the general and finer points of the Lunar legal regime?

And so without further ado....

Here's the link: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=30392.msg980420
« Last Edit: 11/18/2012 01:27 am by Warren Platts »
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Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: Private Moon Landing in the works?
« Reply #96 on: 11/17/2012 08:54 pm »
I think, at least for now, no one is expecting any commercial lunar exploitation to be (much) cheaper than doing it on the Earth.  What Golden Spike are probably trying to do is prove the viability of non-governmental routine access to the Moon.  If they can demonstrate a four-stop 'lunar railroad' (Earth, LEO, EML-2, Moon) then investors will be a lot more interested in funding the engineers and scientists who claim there are commercially viable lunar resources.

The original infrastructure will likely only be used for a half-dozen or so lunar missions of which I suspect only three or four will be surface sorties.  However, if it demonstrates the viability of the concept, others will look a lot more closely at the concept than they are right now.  The designs and procedures will be in place to assemble a new 'rail-road' when the funded applications are ready to go.  Optimistically, NASA might even end up buying/leasing the original completed infrastructure to accelerate its own lunar missions.

This isn't as much "If you build it, they will come" as it is "if you build, it, they'll actually seriously think of why they would want to go".  From such thinking would investment in lunar applications follow.
« Last Edit: 11/17/2012 08:56 pm by Ben the Space Brit »
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Offline Warren Platts

Re: Private Moon Landing in the works?
« Reply #97 on: 11/17/2012 08:59 pm »
I think, at least for now, no one is expecting any commercial lunar exploitation to be (much) cheaper than doing it on the Earth.  What Golden Spike are probably trying to do is prove the viability of non-governmental routine access to the Moon.  If they can demonstrate a four-stop 'lunar railroad' (Earth, LEO, EML-2, Moon) then investors will be a lot more interested in funding the engineers and scientists who claim there are commercially viable lunar resources.

The original infrastructure will likely only be used for a half-dozen or so lunar missions of which I suspect only three or four will be surface sorties.  However, if it demonstrates the viability of the concept, others will look a lot more closely at the concept than they are right now.  The designs and procedures will be in place to assemble a new 'rail-road' when the funded applications are ready to go.  Optimistically, NASA might even end up buying/leasing the original completed infrastructure to accelerate its own lunar missions.

This isn't as much "If you build it, they will come" as it is "if you build, it, they'll actually seriously think of why they would want to go".  From such thinking would investment in lunar applications follow.

Excellent analysis. I would only add that the initial sortie missions will also serve as enormously important "human precursor" missions that will do some serious prospecting/ground-truthing at the same time and thus elevate Lunar resources out of the speculation stage and thus go a long ways to reducing the present, pervasive giggle factor that dominates the conversation....
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Offline Danderman

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Re: Private Moon Landing in the works?
« Reply #98 on: 11/17/2012 09:07 pm »
I'm not so much confusing them as I am pointing out that this treaty provides very little legal or regulatory guidance for what's coming.

Namely, the method for which a private company or citizen could purchase land rights and usage that can, at any time in the future, be sold or rented to another commercial or Govt entity.  Among many other issues.

There is no evidence that Golden Spike wants to sell lunar property. I think you are having a discussion that does not relate to this thread.

I would look forward to a hypothetical discussion of lunar property rights in another thread or forum.

Offline joek

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Re: Private Moon Landing in the works?
« Reply #99 on: 11/17/2012 09:24 pm »
Look guys, we can go on for pages and pages and pages over this. It's already been done in numerous threads.

Agree.  Not only on NSF threads, but other venues with people who have devoted a great deal of time and effort to the issues of "space propery rights" (search for it... there's a mountain of informed analysis and commentary).

This isn't as much "If you build it, they will come" as it is "if you build, it, they'll actually seriously think of why they would want to go".  From such thinking would investment in lunar applications follow.

Well put.  And the longer  it remains a government-only effort, the longer it will take before non-government people start thinking seriously about it.  As to why now, anyone's guess...

Some uninformed speculation:

Since it is well known that NASA is currently developing plans to explore space beyond low earth orbit, is it possible that the subject of this thread is simply an offer by a consortium of private companies to provide an affordable lunar landing mission? In other words, is it possible that the customer is NASA?

Similar thoughts, although I'd express it as "is it possible a major partner is NASA?".

I can't help but think that the timing of this is not coincidental, given NASA's purported (renewed?) interest in EML and maybe depots, potential fiscal austerity measures, and budget timing.  Such a commercial effort may not be able to make an offer the government can't refuse; however, they may be able to make an offer that would be very difficult to refuse given the fiscal and political environment.  (Sorry, starting to wander into space policy territory there.)
« Last Edit: 11/17/2012 09:26 pm by joek »

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