Author Topic: Ares I Development Thread  (Read 332300 times)

Offline gladiator1332

  • Mike Majeski
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2428
  • Raleigh, NC
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 3
Ares I Development Thread
« on: 08/19/2007 10:25 PM »
I thought I would start a new thread where all news pertaining to Ares I Development could be posted. This includes articles, news updates, water cooler discussion, any 3d images, etc.

Right now I do not have any news to report, however, I would like to state some simple rules for this thread.

1. Only news pertaining to Ares I can be posted here. If the news affects Ares I in any way, then it will be ok to post it here. If it is news on the Orion CEV that in turn makes changes to Ares I, it will be ok to post.

2. NO ARES / NASA BASHING. Other threads have been filled with this and after awhile it does get a little old. A good measure would be if you cannot back your statement up with technical data, then don't post it. This will be strictly enforced. There are other threads where you can go to vent your anger and frustration.

3. I also want to note that this thread is not Pro or Anti Ares I. This will be a simple objective and technical post, similar to the DIRECT thread. Take the hearsay, rumor loaded, CNN-style BS posts to another thread.
This thread will follow Ares I Development from today, until it finally flies, whatever final form it takes...SDLV, EELV, or DIRECT.






Offline gladiator1332

  • Mike Majeski
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2428
  • Raleigh, NC
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Ares I Development Thread
« Reply #1 on: 08/19/2007 10:27 PM »
I'll start this thread by posting links to two images from the following NASA News Release about the award of the first stage contract:

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2007/aug/HQ_C07036_Ares_first_stage.html

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/185549main_Ist_stage_2.jpg
http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/185553main_Ist_stage_3.jpg

One thing I do notice is that ATK (safesimplesoon.com) is using a different 3d image developer than NASA who is using Space Animation.com
On the NASA model the interstage between the 5 seg and the fairing to the upperstage looks completely different in the Safe Simple Soon renders:
http://www.safesimplesoon.com/assets/images/144lowres/ARES%20I%20EXTERNAL%20front.jpg

Offline renclod

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1663
  • EU.Ro
  • Liked: 8
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Ares I Development Thread
« Reply #2 on: 08/23/2007 08:34 PM »
http://www.aiaa.org/aerospace/images/articleimages/pdf/Conversations_August20071.pdf
Quote

If you get into the test program for the J-2X and it develops a fault, some serious problem, can you bring the SSME back into the Picture?
Do you have any backup engine that could be substituted for service in the Ares launchers?

I think it would have to be a pretty major problem. ...

So you are not maintaining the SSME in mothballs or anything like that?

No, not at this point. Of course, as we progress through development, if agency management for whatever strategic reason thinks we need to do something like that, we will do it. But right now we are pretty confident ...


Offline gladiator1332

  • Mike Majeski
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2428
  • Raleigh, NC
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Ares I Development Thread
« Reply #3 on: 08/23/2007 09:32 PM »
Really interesting interview and gives a great idea of where the program is at right now. I didn't know there was one Apollo-era engineer left working on Ares V. I thought all of those guys have long since retired. That would be an interesting interview...comparison of Constellation to Apollo, Ares V to Saturn V, etc.

What is nice in that interview is that he sums up Ares I-X in a way that doesn't make it sound more than it is. He is perfectly clear that there is no real flight hardware flying on Ares I-X. There was a lot of stress on the fact that the vehicle will "look" like the real thing. This leads me to believe that Ares I-X is possibly more for political reasons, rather than engineering reasons.

Offline Moon King

  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 46
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Ares I Development Thread
« Reply #4 on: 08/24/2007 02:45 AM »
Here's a few pics of the latest configurations i could find
NASA- Returning to the moon (when politicians quit slashing our budget)

Offline gladiator1332

  • Mike Majeski
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2428
  • Raleigh, NC
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Ares I Development Thread
« Reply #5 on: 08/24/2007 03:48 AM »
Those are really nice images. The top one is a bit outdated, as it shows the Orion 605 configuration. The Service Module has changed considerably since then.

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/content/?cid=5097
http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/OrionCEVCatalogPage.htm


Offline simonbp

Re: Ares I Development Thread
« Reply #6 on: 08/24/2007 04:33 AM »
Quote
renclod - 23/8/2007  1:34 PM

http://www.aiaa.org/aerospace/images/articleimages/pdf/Conversations_August20071.pdf

Q: Why did you choose to build a new J-2X stand at Stennis for altitude testing of the engine?

A: The issue there is altitude testing of sufficient duration at altitude... We have to be able to test that out at altitude and put it through the long-duration thermal environment. The only way we can do that is to look at other test possibilities—we’ve looked at AEDC [Arnold Engineering Development Center], at Plum Brook, at existing facilities, and none of them were able to give us the vacuum duration that we needed. So we had to go to the next-best option of building a new test stand to be able to meet those test objectives.

...

Q: You’ve made some changes to the vehicle lately. Isn’t it now as tall as the Saturn V was?

A: Yes.

Q: And changed the loiter time of the EDS/lander in orbit from 90 days to what, two weeks?

A: Yes, we significantly reduced that.

Q: But in your current manifest you don’t wait two weeks to launch the CEV—you’d launch it
the next day?

A: You wouldn’t wait two weeks, but once the cargo is up there, you’d like to get the crew up as quickly as you can following that. But you have to allow for some weather and other things as part of a realistic operational plan. That’s what sets the loiter time.

...

Q: Did you ever seriously do a trade study for an Ares IV configuration?

A: No. Ares IV—that terminology—was picked up somewhere, I’m not sure where it all started. That is not a real configuration. Maybe it was considered as some flight test option, but it didn’t last long. You can wipe that name from the lexicon.

Simon ;)

Offline JIS

  • Elite Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1088
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Ares I Development Thread
« Reply #7 on: 08/24/2007 08:29 AM »
Quote
gladiator1332 - 23/8/2007  10:32 PM

What is nice in that interview is that he sums up Ares I-X in a way that doesn't make it sound more than it is. He is perfectly clear that there is no real flight hardware flying on Ares I-X. There was a lot of stress on the fact that the vehicle will "look" like the real thing. This leads me to believe that Ares I-X is possibly more for political reasons, rather than engineering reasons.

Actually, he didn't say precisely that.
If I were asking him I would ask whether the mass simulator will simulate just US+Orion mass or aerodynamic forces (acceleration + profile) of Ares.
As the 4seg has less thrust it could be usefull to put less weight on top of it.
'Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill' - Old Greek experience

Offline JIS

  • Elite Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1088
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Ares I Development Thread
« Reply #8 on: 08/24/2007 08:37 AM »
I think that Dumbacher is Jim's (from KSC, often visitor here) archenemy :-)
'Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill' - Old Greek experience

Offline MrTim

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 729
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Ares I Development Thread
« Reply #9 on: 08/24/2007 09:39 AM »
Quote
gladiator1332 - 19/8/2007  3:25 PM
2. NO ARES / NASA BASHING.

Sorry, but could not resist given this next bit ;)

Quote
gladiator1332 - 23/8/2007  2:32 PM
What is nice in that interview is that he sums up Ares I-X in a way that doesn't make it sound more than it is. He is perfectly clear that there is no real flight hardware flying on Ares I-X. There was a lot of stress on the fact that the vehicle will "look" like the real thing. This leads me to believe that Ares I-X is possibly more for political reasons, rather than engineering reasons.

Please re-read the interview. As he said, and as has been said before in another thread, the Ares I-X flight is about gathering data on the aerodynamics and flight control requirements for the stick. Think of it as a full-scale real-world wind tunnel test. To fulfill this function, it only needs the same outer mold line (meaning it will LOOK like the real thing) and the same mass distribution (Lots of steel or water carefully located inside in place of actual flight hardware) as the final item. It might be nice to use real structures and real avionics to do this, but they are not needed for this function, so why delay this test and the data from it until the real stuff is available? Also, the results of this test shot could very well cause changes in the design of the flight hardware and/or avionics. I think it will be a very nifty event when I-X hops off the pad; the engineers will get the data they want, and as a happy side effect we will all get a sneak preview of what the future will look like  :cool:

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31011
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 9185
  • Likes Given: 295
Re: Ares I Development Thread
« Reply #10 on: 08/24/2007 10:14 AM »
Quote
MrTim - 24/8/2007  5:39 AM

 Also, the results of this test shot could very well cause changes in the design of the flight hardware and/or avionics.

Way too late for this.  It is just for show.  See the many other threads on this subject

Offline JIS

  • Elite Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1088
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Ares I Development Thread
« Reply #11 on: 08/24/2007 12:55 PM »
Quote
Jim - 24/8/2007  11:14 AM

Quote
MrTim - 24/8/2007  5:39 AM

 Also, the results of this test shot could very well cause changes in the design of the flight hardware and/or avionics.

Way too late for this.  It is just for show.  See the many other threads on this subject

Why it couldn't be used to resize RCS, tweak TVC or SRB shutes?
'Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill' - Old Greek experience

Offline gladiator1332

  • Mike Majeski
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2428
  • Raleigh, NC
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Ares I Development Thread
« Reply #12 on: 08/24/2007 01:20 PM »
Don't get me wrong, the Ares I-X flight is going to be exciting, but I will have to agree with Jim on this one. The shape is there, but nothing else on Ares I-X will test the true flight article.

And MrTim, I do not think this qualifies as Ares I bashing. I am simply stating an opinion that Ares I-X is more of a political flight than an engineering flight. This doesn't make it any less exciting and is not meant in a derogatory way!

Offline clongton

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10256
  • Connecticut
    • Direct Launcher
  • Liked: 2005
  • Likes Given: 619
Re: Ares I Development Thread
« Reply #13 on: 08/24/2007 01:53 PM »
Quote
gladiator1332 - 24/8/2007  9:20 AM

Don't get me wrong, the Ares I-X flight is going to be exciting, but I will have to agree with Jim on this one. The shape is there, but nothing else on Ares I-X will test the true flight article.

And MrTim, I do not think this qualifies as Ares I bashing. I am simply stating an opinion that Ares I-X is more of a political flight than an engineering flight. This doesn't make it any less exciting and is not meant in a derogatory way!
The only real concern I have with the Aes-1-X test flight is the interstage. I have heard that it will be much beefier than the flight article. I would hope that it would be much closer to the true mass and section, because this is an early opportunity to get some data on the suspected buckling the interstage may be subjected to. If it’s going to fail, this would be the time to find out, while there is still reasonable schedule available to address it before it also commits to an Orion flight. If they substitute instead a beefier interstage, the flight would provide no data on this critical element. To me, this element is one of the most critical of all in the system design.

Can anyone address this concern I have?
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline JIS

  • Elite Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1088
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Ares I Development Thread
« Reply #14 on: 08/24/2007 02:29 PM »
Quote
clongton - 24/8/2007  2:53 PM

The only real concern I have with the Aes-1-X test flight is the interstage. I have heard that it will be much beefier than the flight article. I would hope that it would be much closer to the true mass and section, because this is an early opportunity to get some data on the suspected buckling the interstage may be subjected to. If it’s going to fail, this would be the time to find out, while there is still reasonable schedule available to address it before it also commits to an Orion flight. If they substitute instead a beefier interstage, the flight would provide no data on this critical element. To me, this element is one of the most critical of all in the system design.

Can anyone address this concern I have?

When aerodynamic forces are known (also from Ares 1-X) all you need to do is to use CAD and proper testing methods. We live in 21.century. Giant planes are designed using CAD only. You can forget buckling.
'Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill' - Old Greek experience

Offline Lee Jay

  • Elite Veteran
  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6580
  • Liked: 862
  • Likes Given: 132
Re: Ares I Development Thread
« Reply #15 on: 08/24/2007 02:41 PM »
Buckling is a highly non-linear and difficult process to predict.  We do testing here on large complex composite structures and buckling is the number one (by far) unpredicted failure mode.  These structures are analyzed and tested, from materials, to coupons, to substructures, to full structures, and yet the best FEMs operated by the best people with the best data still fail to properly predict buckling of these structures.

Offline clongton

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10256
  • Connecticut
    • Direct Launcher
  • Liked: 2005
  • Likes Given: 619
Re: Ares I Development Thread
« Reply #16 on: 08/24/2007 02:46 PM »
Quote
JIS - 24/8/2007  10:29 AM

Quote
clongton - 24/8/2007  2:53 PM

The only real concern I have with the Aes-1-X test flight is the interstage. I have heard that it will be much beefier than the flight article. I would hope that it would be much closer to the true mass and section, because this is an early opportunity to get some data on the suspected buckling the interstage may be subjected to. If it’s going to fail, this would be the time to find out, while there is still reasonable schedule available to address it before it also commits to an Orion flight. If they substitute instead a beefier interstage, the flight would provide no data on this critical element. To me, this element is one of the most critical of all in the system design.

Can anyone address this concern I have?

When aerodynamic forces are known (also from Ares 1-X) all you need to do is to use CAD and proper testing methods. We live in 21.century. Giant planes are designed using CAD only. You can forget buckling.
JIS: I make my living using 3d CAD – CATIA specifically, and we build the largest machines in the world (nuclear submarines). I know all about computer analysis – to the nth degree. We test and test and test over and over again in the virtual world until we think we have a product that the models show will work. It’s at that point that the real test begins: Build the real article and put it thru its paces in the environment it is supposed to work in. You would be astounded at how many times this last step uncovers problems that were not revealed in the computational world. That’s why I would want to see an interstage that at least approximated the mass and section of the expected flight article. If it’s going to buckle due to some unforeseen condition, this is the time to find out, while there is still time to address it without adversely affecting the schedule.

Computer modeling and analysis is great. Like I said, I make my living doing it. But after you’ve gone as far as you can with the modeling, there is just no substitute for the acid test. The interstage is the weakest point in the structural design (which is what I do), and it needs to be tested in the real world.
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline JIS

  • Elite Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1088
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Ares I Development Thread
« Reply #17 on: 08/24/2007 03:04 PM »
That is why I also mentioned testing. If you know bending moments you can test the structure on the stand. I'm not saying to fly what you se on your PC screen.
Testing on the stand allows you repeated testing to the failure. You can hardly do that on Ares 1-X flight.
If they fly beefed interstage they apparently want to be conservative not wasting money on proper testing of temporary hardware.
'Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill' - Old Greek experience

Offline MKremer

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3901
  • Liked: 11
  • Likes Given: 472
Re: Ares I Development Thread
« Reply #18 on: 08/24/2007 03:09 PM »
Quote
clongton - 24/8/2007  9:46 AM
Computer modeling and analysis is great. Like I said, I make my living doing it. But after you’ve gone as far as you can with the modeling, there is just no substitute for the acid test. The interstage is the weakest point in the structural design (which is what I do), and it needs to be tested in the real world.

It's still called "Finite Modeling" for a reason.  ;)
The worst thing NASA could do, IMO is build a battleship interstage for IX, and then find out 15 or 18 months later (depending on how well their current schedule holds up) that the *real* interstage results in LOV, shifting test flights and the first operational flight even further to the right.


Offline rumble

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 584
  • Conway, AR
  • Liked: 11
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Ares I Development Thread
« Reply #19 on: 08/24/2007 04:32 PM »
Quote
clongton - 24/8/2007  8:53 AM

Quote
gladiator1332 - 24/8/2007  9:20 AM

Don't get me wrong, the Ares I-X flight is going to be exciting, but I will have to agree with Jim on this one. The shape is there, but nothing else on Ares I-X will test the true flight article.

And MrTim, I do not think this qualifies as Ares I bashing. I am simply stating an opinion that Ares I-X is more of a political flight than an engineering flight. This doesn't make it any less exciting and is not meant in a derogatory way!
The only real concern I have with the Aes-1-X test flight is the interstage. I have heard that it will be much beefier than the flight article. I would hope that it would be much closer to the true mass and section, because this is an early opportunity to get some data on the suspected buckling the interstage may be subjected to. If it’s going to fail, this would be the time to find out, while there is still reasonable schedule available to address it before it also commits to an Orion flight. If they substitute instead a beefier interstage, the flight would provide no data on this critical element. To me, this element is one of the most critical of all in the system design.

Can anyone address this concern I have?
Correct me if I'm wrong here:
Since the Ares 1-X flight will also be using a 4-seg SRB (plus a blank 5th segment), won't the max-Q pressure be lower?  

If they're flying a significantly stronger interstage on a vehicle that will experience reduced dynamic stresses, it sounds like to me they're just trying to avoid the embarrassment of having their new flagship crew launcher jack-knife on its first test.

I agree that the interstage should be as close to the current design of the flight article as possible.  ...weight & strength both...

Tags: