Author Topic: China to have new rockets  (Read 209126 times)

Online Lars-J

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3168
  • California
  • Liked: 2488
  • Likes Given: 1461
Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #400 on: 07/06/2017 06:39 AM »
During Long March Commercial Launch Users Conference today, CGWIC introduced some new rockets
CZ-734 CBC configuration and low cost CZ-8A which will have its maiden flight on 2019

Are those images to scale? Because the CZ-8A looks pretty much like a CZ-7 without boosters, and since the boosters provide roughly 2/3rds of the liftoff thrust, how could the CZ-8A even lift off?

Online Galactic Penguin SST

Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #401 on: 07/06/2017 07:13 AM »
During Long March Commercial Launch Users Conference today, CGWIC introduced some new rockets
CZ-734 CBC configuration and low cost CZ-8A which will have its maiden flight on 2019

Are those images to scale? Because the CZ-8A looks pretty much like a CZ-7 without boosters, and since the boosters provide roughly 2/3rds of the liftoff thrust, how could the CZ-8A even lift off?

See my earlier post:

As promised earlier, here are some of the new things found in this paper(*) written by people at CALT:

(*) Qin X D, Long L H, Rong Y.
The achievement and future of China space transportation system [J]
Journal of Deep Space Exploration, 2016, 3 (4): 315-322


- The often talked about CZ-8 is what some people once called the "CZ-722S" (and called CZ-822S here), using the existing CZ-7 first stage topped with the current hydrogen upper stage of the CZ-3 series as the 2nd stage. Two 120 t class, 2 meter diameter twin segment SRBs (thrust comparable with those on the Atlas V) are added to form the baseline version, capable of 4.5 tonnes to Sun-synchronous orbit (or 7.6 tonnes to LEO/2.5 tonnes to GTO). A "CZ-820" core only version can carries 3.0 tonnes to polar orbit.

I personally don't think it to be cheap for heavier polar orbit missions (though it reminds me of the "Taurus II-mini-Centaur" that Antonio Elias mentioned 10 years ago on this forum, way before Antares flies, with similar performance), given the LH2 upper stage, but maybe CALT can find enough missions to make it work. It will face fierce competition with SAST's CZ-6A (not mentioned in this paper) though.

- The GTO bound CZ-7 versions are called "CZ-3D" and "CZ-3E" in this paper (though I have seen different names in other papers). The CZ-7 + CZ-3 LH2 stage version is the "CZ-3D", 7.0 tonnes to GTO/4.2 tonnes to lunar transfer orbit and 3.0 tonnes to navigation sats MEO. A "CZ-3E" with the CZ-7 plus a RP-1 3rd stage with a single YF-115 engine is also mentioned that can lift 5.2 tonnes to GTO.

(note however that the text paragraph calls the 1st stage as a "tri-core" configuration.....dunno if there's a mistake out there)

As mentioned by me some time ago, the 3.5 stages combination doesn't look attractive to me in terms of costs and reliability, but maybe that's the best the Chinese can do right now.....

- CZ-9's newest configuration ("CZ-934") seems to have 4 new 480 tonnes thrust twin chamber stage combustion RP-1 engines on a 10 meter diameter (some say 9.5) as the 1st stage, 4 boosters with 2 480 tonnes engines, 2 220 tonnes LH2 engines on 2nd stage (also 10 meters in diameter) and the existing CZ-5 upper LH2 stage as the 3rd stage. Performance were given as 140 t LEO/66 t GTO/50 t LTO/37 t MEO. Note however that the article also mentioned that the design is also comparable with large SRBs so the design is still far from frozen.....

- CALT is studying an 4 stage solid air launch rocket dropped from the Y-20 military transport jet, with capability of no less than 200 kg to 700 km high polar orbits.

- The name "YZ-3" has been confirmed for the SAST small sat upper stage that will fly on the CZ-2D and CZ-4 series, probably within this year.

CZ-8 = CZ-822S
CZ-8A = CZ-820
Chinese spaceflight is a cosmic riddle wrapped in a galactic mystery inside an orbital enigma... - (not) Winston Churchill

Online Galactic Penguin SST

Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #402 on: 07/06/2017 02:27 PM »
During Long March Commercial Launch Users Conference today, CGWIC introduced some new rockets
CZ-734 CBC configuration and low cost CZ-8A which will have its maiden flight on 2019

That would be called "CZ-732H" instead.  ;)
The paper that I translated 4 months earlier actually called it out, but got the picture wrong:

Quote
- The GTO bound CZ-7 versions are called "CZ-3D" and "CZ-3E" in this paper (though I have seen different names in other papers). The CZ-7 + CZ-3 LH2 stage version is the "CZ-3D", 7.0 tonnes to GTO/4.2 tonnes to lunar transfer orbit and 3.0 tonnes to navigation sats MEO. A "CZ-3E" with the CZ-7 plus a RP-1 3rd stage with a single YF-115 engine is also mentioned that can lift 5.2 tonnes to GTO.

(note however that the text paragraph calls the 1st stage as a "tri-core" configuration.....dunno if there's a mistake out there)

This is actually somewhat of a surprise....which means that the Chinese are shifting away from the 2.25 m diameter rocket block. It might help somewhat with its cost, though given its capability is still 7 t GTO and that just half a day earlier some LSP did so with a 2-stage all kerolox rocket, it doesn't sound like a cheap solution at all.  :-\
Chinese spaceflight is a cosmic riddle wrapped in a galactic mystery inside an orbital enigma... - (not) Winston Churchill

Offline zhangmdev

  • Member
  • Posts: 15
  • Liked: 3
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #403 on: 07/06/2017 04:35 PM »
Tri-cored CZ-7 lifting CZ-3A 3rd stage for just 7 ton GTO? A 3.35 m diameter 3-staged rocket taller than CZ-3B, almost as tall as Falcon 9 v1.1?

Why not just fill CZ-5 with dual-payload GTO missions and get over with?

Online Lars-J

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3168
  • California
  • Liked: 2488
  • Likes Given: 1461
Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #404 on: 07/06/2017 07:45 PM »
Quote
- The GTO bound CZ-7 versions are called "CZ-3D" and "CZ-3E" in this paper (though I have seen different names in other papers). The CZ-7 + CZ-3 LH2 stage version is the "CZ-3D", 7.0 tonnes to GTO/4.2 tonnes to lunar transfer orbit and 3.0 tonnes to navigation sats MEO. A "CZ-3E" with the CZ-7 plus a RP-1 3rd stage with a single YF-115 engine is also mentioned that can lift 5.2 tonnes to GTO.

(note however that the text paragraph calls the 1st stage as a "tri-core" configuration.....dunno if there's a mistake out there)

This is actually somewhat of a surprise....which means that the Chinese are shifting away from the 2.25 m diameter rocket block. It might help somewhat with its cost, though given its capability is still 7 t GTO and that just half a day earlier some LSP did so with a 2-stage all kerolox rocket, it doesn't sound like a cheap solution at all.  :-\

That tri-core looks a bit FH inspired. (FH obviously won't be the first tri-core to fly, I know).  ;) But they really do seem to be following a weirdly scattershot strategy with launch vehicles. Why so much overlapping capability with so many configurations? Is it just for redundancy? Or just seeing what works best, and only the best will survive?

Or is it launch site issues that force this? If they plan on flying most of these new LVs from Wenchang, I suppose it makes sense that all variants share a CZ-7 core stage.
« Last Edit: 07/06/2017 07:46 PM by Lars-J »

Online GWH

Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #405 on: 07/06/2017 08:18 PM »
That tri-core looks a bit FH inspired. (FH obviously won't be the first tri-core to fly, I know).  ;) But they really do seem to be following a weirdly scattershot strategy with launch vehicles. Why so much overlapping capability with so many configurations? Is it just for redundancy? Or just seeing what works best, and only the best will survive?

Or is it launch site issues that force this? If they plan on flying most of these new LVs from Wenchang, I suppose it makes sense that all variants share a CZ-7 core stage.

The tri-core makes a lot more sense to me than the current Long March 7 (LZ-7) with its 2 engine core and 4 single engine boosters.  Why produce the 2.25m core size when the 3.35m cores are common to the LZ-7 core and LZ-5 boosters.  I realize the 2.25m tooling is common to the Long March 3 (LZ-3), but still seems silly.

Add 1-3 sea level optimized YF-115's down the middle along with a slight core stretch and they could have start trying for booster reuse.
« Last Edit: 07/06/2017 09:30 PM by GWH »

Offline zhangmdev

  • Member
  • Posts: 15
  • Liked: 3
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #406 on: 07/07/2017 04:05 AM »

Why produce the 2.25m core size when the 3.35m cores are common to the LZ-7 core and LZ-5 boosters.  I realize the 2.25m tooling is common to the Long March 3 (LZ-3), but still seems silly.


The origin of CZ-7 is CZ-2F/H, where H means Change. The idea is to change the engine and propellant while keeping the basic design of CZ-2F. So there is stretched 2.25 m booster.

Cool image of booster sep test

http://imgur.com/OOcOeuv

Online Lars-J

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3168
  • California
  • Liked: 2488
  • Likes Given: 1461
Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #407 on: 07/07/2017 08:36 PM »
So is Wenchang the only launch site that will operate the new KeroLox based CZ-5/6/7/8 launchers? (yes I know the core stage of CZ-5 is hydrolox) Or will other launch sites be updated to launch the CZ-7 family?

Offline zhangmdev

  • Member
  • Posts: 15
  • Liked: 3
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #408 on: 07/07/2017 11:30 PM »
Any core with diameter larger than 3.35 m will be impossible to launch from inland launch sites because of restriction of railway transportation.  CZ-5 and CZ-7 is assembled in Tianjing, then shipped to Wenchang by  Yuanwang21 and 22.

https://www.chinaspaceflight.com/yuanwang/yuangwang21-22.html

I think it is possible to launch CZ-7 from those old sites if they really want that to happen, but so far I cannot find any new flash about such plan.

Offline smfarmer11

  • Member
  • Posts: 66
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 44
Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #409 on: 07/08/2017 01:03 AM »
Can they do high inclination launches from Wenchang?

Offline zhangmdev

  • Member
  • Posts: 15
  • Liked: 3
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #410 on: 07/08/2017 01:15 AM »
http://money.163.com/16/0625/17/BQE1N94M00253B0H.html

Yes, that's in the news release. From Wenchang they can launch payload into SSO.

Online Lars-J

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3168
  • California
  • Liked: 2488
  • Likes Given: 1461
Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #411 on: 07/08/2017 03:23 AM »
Can they do high inclination launches from Wenchang?

They have some options... Here is an image I made showing which directions they can launch out of.
A) for GTO and low inclination
B) SSO/polar
C) higher inclination launches (like the current space station)

EDIT: Removed the question mark from C, based on the correction from Galactic Penguin SST:)
« Last Edit: 07/08/2017 04:46 AM by Lars-J »

Online Galactic Penguin SST

Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #412 on: 07/08/2017 04:16 AM »
Can they do high inclination launches from Wenchang?

They have some options... Here is an image I made showing which directions they can launch out of.
A) for GTO and low inclination (all CZ-5 and CZ-7 launches so far)
B) SSO/polar
C) depending on drop zones and Phillipine approval, they might be able to do higher inclination launches in this direction as well

Actually the CZ-7 flights go in the direction of C - remember that the Chinese space stations are in a 42 degree inclination orbit.  ;) The CZ-5 flights did flies towards A.
Chinese spaceflight is a cosmic riddle wrapped in a galactic mystery inside an orbital enigma... - (not) Winston Churchill

Tags: