Author Topic: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION  (Read 15678 times)

Online edkyle99

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12440
    • Space Launch Report
  • Liked: 3238
  • Likes Given: 546
Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #60 on: 06/30/2017 12:46 AM »
It all depends on on how silo'd (separated) off the Orbital and ATK parts of the company are. OATK hasn't exactly warmly embraced Antares until perhaps recently. Also, past history of an organization is no guarantee that the current employees have retained that skill-set. There are lots of examples of that.
David Thompson, Orbital co-founder, is at the helm of this merged company.  He moved Scott Lehr, from the ATK side of the house, into the lead of Orbital ATK’s Flight Systems Group, which is developing NGL (and operating Antares, Pegasus, Minotaur, etc.).  It seems to me to have been a purposeful move designed to help tear down the old walls.

No guarantees, but this merger seems to me to have many synergies.  Motor builder joins company that uses motors. 

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 06/30/2017 12:50 AM by edkyle99 »

Offline Coastal Ron

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3141
  • I live... along the coast
  • Liked: 1969
  • Likes Given: 2322
Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #61 on: 06/30/2017 01:19 AM »

... And they don't have experience being a launch provider....

Pegasus. Taurus. Minotaur. Antares.

Thanks for pointing that out, and I've edited my post to correct my oversight. I think I was only thinking of the ATK part of Orbital ATK.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline douglas100

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2133
  • Liked: 209
  • Likes Given: 94
Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #62 on: 06/30/2017 09:49 AM »
You're welcome. I don't think there's any doubt they could do NGL technically and operationally. It's the business case that's problematic.
Douglas Clark

Offline Kabloona

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4016
  • Velocitas Eradico
  • Fortress of Solitude
  • Liked: 2198
  • Likes Given: 445
Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #63 on: 06/30/2017 10:29 PM »
It all depends on on how silo'd (separated) off the Orbital and ATK parts of the company are. OATK hasn't exactly warmly embraced Antares until perhaps recently. Also, past history of an organization is no guarantee that the current employees have retained that skill-set. There are lots of examples of that.
David Thompson, Orbital co-founder, is at the helm of this merged company.  He moved Scott Lehr, from the ATK side of the house, into the lead of Orbital ATK’s Flight Systems Group, which is developing NGL (and operating Antares, Pegasus, Minotaur, etc.).  It seems to me to have been a purposeful move designed to help tear down the old walls.

No guarantees, but this merger seems to me to have many synergies.  Motor builder joins company that uses motors. 

 - Ed Kyle

The merger can also be seen as the next logical step after the "joint venture" model that Orbital and Hercules used to develop Pegasus, in which the companies shared development costs/responsibilities and profits, IIRC.

So if Pegasus was the fruit of a liaison between Orbital and Hercules, NGL will/would be the fruit of a real marriage of Orbital and ATK.

I guess Dave Thompson et al figured the Pegasus joint venture experience was positive enough the take the plunge with ATK.

Offline Archibald

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
  • Liked: 187
  • Likes Given: 521
Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #64 on: 07/01/2017 10:26 AM »
I keep reading "LNG rocket" hence a rocket running on liquid natural gas (refueled and launched from a LNG ship ?)  ;D
« Last Edit: 07/01/2017 10:27 AM by Archibald »

Offline Rik ISS-fan

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 532
  • the Netherlands
  • Liked: 107
  • Likes Given: 6
Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #65 on: 07/03/2017 05:26 AM »
I keep reading "LNG rocket" hence a rocket running on liquid natural gas (refueled and launched from a LNG ship ?)  ;D

What do you think about a expendable TSTO with BE-4U engine upper-stage? (Instead of Castor300+BE-3UEN 3th stage)
Could LOx and LNG alu or plastic COPV propallent tanks be produced using the same tooling as for the Castor X00 solid casings?
« Last Edit: 07/03/2017 05:40 AM by Rik ISS-fan »

Offline Ronsmytheiii

  • Moderator
  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22249
  • Liked: 505
  • Likes Given: 224
Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #66 on: 07/04/2017 10:59 AM »
The Be3U powered US would be the most challenging for OA as they don't have LH experience. Nothing poaching engineers from ULA or Blue couldn't fix. Blue may even offer help if it results in BE3 sales.

They might not even need to poach guys from ULA, there is a lot of talent being let go in ULA's downsizing efforts that can be scooped up easily (and cheaply).

Online edkyle99

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12440
    • Space Launch Report
  • Liked: 3238
  • Likes Given: 546
Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #67 on: 07/07/2017 07:11 PM »
Systems Engineering position (among several) for ULA Vulcan and Orbital ATK Next Generation Launcher (NGL) USAF New Entrant Certification in Los Angeles, CA.  This is likely a job for a contractor working for the Space and Missile Systems Center (SMC) in El Segundo, CA at Los Angeles Air Force Base.
https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/388507126

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 07/07/2017 07:14 PM by edkyle99 »

Offline russianhalo117

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3531
  • AR USA / Berlin, DE / Moscow, RF
  • Liked: 617
  • Likes Given: 409
Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #68 on: 07/07/2017 11:17 PM »
Systems Engineering position (among several) for ULA Vulcan and Orbital ATK Next Generation Launcher (NGL) USAF New Entrant Certification in Los Angeles, CA.  This is likely a job for a contractor working for the Space and Missile Systems Center (SMC) in El Segundo, CA at Los Angeles Air Force Base.
https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/388507126

 - Ed Kyle
My cousin whom works at LAAFB says the position is based out of LAAFB but is a mobile position with varying job sites/locations. My cousin says that security clearance would likely be needed, but to check for the job listing in USAJobs for details (https://dod.usajobs.gov/ and http://godefense.cpms.osd.mil/).

Online envy887

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2231
  • Liked: 969
  • Likes Given: 644
Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #69 on: 07/17/2017 12:45 PM »
Dates for static fire testing and operation of the heavy version:

Quote
Orbital ATK plans to compete its proposed NGL intermediate- and heavy-lift rockets in future Air Force competitions. So far, the company has passed crucial design reviews and is working toward a static fire of its four-segment heavy-lift booster in about 2022. The company expects that rocket to be operational in 2024.

Orbital ATK sees NGL as a natural progression from its smaller rockets, such as Pegasus and Antares. Antares currently delivers supplies for NASA to the International Space Station.

“We have made very incremental steps in improving our capability,” said Mark Pieczynski, vice president of business development and strategy for Orbital ATK’s flight systems group. “We’re now ready to move into the intermediate and heavy class.”

Orbital ATK and the Air Force together are investing more than $200 million to develop the launch system.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-heavy-lift-rockets-20170716-htmlstory.html

Online envy887

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2231
  • Liked: 969
  • Likes Given: 644
Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #70 on: 07/17/2017 12:56 PM »
I keep reading "LNG rocket" hence a rocket running on liquid natural gas (refueled and launched from a LNG ship ?)  ;D

What do you think about a expendable TSTO with BE-4U engine upper-stage? (Instead of Castor300+BE-3UEN 3th stage)
Could LOx and LNG alu or plastic COPV propallent tanks be produced using the same tooling as for the Castor X00 solid casings?

That would be great for LEO, slightly better than the 3-stage in fact. But the heavy, low impulse upper stage hurts high energy performance. With BE-4 upper the NGL 500 XL would get about 8,000 kg to GTO, while the Castor 300 + BE-3U upper stage pair would get 12,000 kg.

Offline Rebel44

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 239
  • Liked: 116
  • Likes Given: 584
Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #71 on: 07/30/2017 09:45 PM »
IMO:

OATKs business plan for NGLV is to hope for competitor(s) to fail - otherwise there wont be enough launches to make money on NGLV.

US DoD wants 2 providers and based on LVs in development (or already operational) we will likely see LVs from:
SpaceX
ULA
OATK
Blue Origin (if they decide to go for for these payloads)

DoD/NRO would have no objections to having more than 2 options, but they wont save 3rd or 4th player if/when they get into trouble, so IMO business plan for NGLV is very weak.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3321
  • UK
    • Plan 28
  • Liked: 2196
  • Likes Given: 739
Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #72 on: 08/03/2017 01:43 PM »
Quote
Jeff Foust‏ @jeff_foust 2m2 minutes ago

[Orbital ATK's David] Thompson: expecting joint go/no-go decision with the Air Force late this year or early next year on next phase of Next Generation Launcher.

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/893104270689611776

Online envy887

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2231
  • Liked: 969
  • Likes Given: 644
Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #73 on: 08/03/2017 02:54 PM »
Is there a reason the Ares 1 vibration issues won't also be a problem on NGL? The XL version is pretty similar in design.

Offline russianhalo117

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3531
  • AR USA / Berlin, DE / Moscow, RF
  • Liked: 617
  • Likes Given: 409
Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #74 on: 08/03/2017 04:31 PM »
Is there a reason the Ares 1 vibration issues won't also be a problem on NGL? The XL version is pretty similar in design.

Different stage lengths for starters.

Online envy887

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2231
  • Liked: 969
  • Likes Given: 644
Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #75 on: 08/03/2017 07:25 PM »
Is there a reason the Ares 1 vibration issues won't also be a problem on NGL? The XL version is pretty similar in design.

Different stage lengths for starters.

The NGL 500 XL has the same size motors as the STS SRBs, which experienced significant thrust oscillation that was largely damped by the stiffness ET thrust beam and the mass of the ET. NGL doesn't have a ET or a thrust beam.

It is also the same size as the Ares 1-X booster, which apparently didn't have any significant problems related to thrust oscillation.

Offline russianhalo117

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3531
  • AR USA / Berlin, DE / Moscow, RF
  • Liked: 617
  • Likes Given: 409
Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #76 on: 08/03/2017 11:18 PM »
Is there a reason the Ares 1 vibration issues won't also be a problem on NGL? The XL version is pretty similar in design.

Different stage lengths for starters.

The NGL 500 XL has the same size motors as the STS SRBs, which experienced significant thrust oscillation that was largely damped by the stiffness ET thrust beam and the mass of the ET. NGL doesn't have a ET or a thrust beam.

It is also the same size as the Ares 1-X booster, which apparently didn't have any significant problems related to thrust oscillation.
Boosters being used have the Lessons learned from Constellation and other changes from SLS booster tests. OA 2016 Motor catalog refers to Castor 300, 600, 900, 1200 as versions available and other documents and presentations reference 3 of the 4 configurations with the programme..

Offline Sam Ho

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 450
  • Liked: 157
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #77 on: 08/04/2017 12:42 AM »
From the earnings call today:
Quote
In our flight systems segment, the company and the Air Force are now in the second year of what may well be a thought year, jointly funded program to create a new intermediate and large class launch vehicle.

As I mentioned before, our objective, our joint objective is to develop a family of vehicles capable of launching both defense as well as commercial and scientific satellites that are larger heavier than those that can be accommodated by our current Antares rocket and have those new launchers ready for initial flights in 2020 or 2021.

Our investments last year and this year together with those of the Air Force that covered the preliminary phases of design and facility expansion, we're expecting a joint go no go between the Air Force and Orbital ATK late this year or early next year concerning the next phase to actually move into full-scale development and testing of these vehicles in advance of commencing production and launch operations around the end of the decade.
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4094384-orbital-atks-oa-ceo-dave-thompson-q2-2017-results-earnings-call-transcript

Offline Mike Jones

  • Member
  • Posts: 39
  • Liked: 8
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #78 on: 08/11/2017 05:49 PM »
Did Orbital-ATK select their cryogenic upper stage supplier ? Blue Origin or aerojet-rocketdyne (+ a partner for the rest of the stage) ?

Tags: