Author Topic: A Camera Drone for space  (Read 16996 times)

Offline Ludus

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A Camera Drone for space
« on: 03/07/2017 03:37 pm »
The SpaceX Dragon2 private lunar flight, having simpler objectives and probably less regulation than missions to the ISS might be a good opportunity to try out a simple Camera Drone.

There will be a lot of interest in it and a drone that can get shots of the Dragon2 passing nearby the moon will get some great shots.

Electric motors and props probably aren't going to do much so I'd assume something with a tank of compressed gas is appropriate. Perhaps with a cradle in the trunk and a means of recharging both batteries and gas?

OTOH perhaps it could be controlled and linked with ordinary wifi or technology modified from regular camera drones? It doesn't have to operate very far from the ship. A Drone like this might mount a VR Camera cluster that can provide the experience of floating outside the Dragon with a free view in all directions.

« Last Edit: 03/07/2017 03:46 pm by Ludus »

Offline Helodriver

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Re: A Camera Drone for space
« Reply #1 on: 03/07/2017 03:43 pm »
Great minds think alike ;)



The kestrel in the trunk idea is a non starter mainly because it's use of cryogenic propellants. Better would be a superDraco with a higher expansion ration for better ISP, and the storability of hypergolics. However this subject was discussed extensively in this thread:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40318.0

As for "junk in the trunk" I don't see it becoming a service module but I do think it will likely carry one or even a few expendable free flying camera equipped cubesats or something similar that will separate, maneuver, and maintain somewhat close formation with the capsule as it swings by the moon to provide the ultimate drone imagery of the Dragon with the lunar surface rotating underneath.  Images will be transmitted to the capsule as part of the tourist package and for SpaceX promotional use.

Such a thing could also be as simple as a few wifi GoPros or commercial 360 degree ball cameras ejected from under the nose cap.

Offline Ludus

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Re: A Camera Drone for space
« Reply #2 on: 03/07/2017 03:56 pm »
Great minds think alike ;)



The kestrel in the trunk idea is a non starter mainly because it's use of cryogenic propellants. Better would be a superDraco with a higher expansion ration for better ISP, and the storability of hypergolics. However this subject was discussed extensively in this thread:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40318.0

As for "junk in the trunk" I don't see it becoming a service module but I do think it will likely carry one or even a few expendable free flying camera equipped cubesats or something similar that will separate, maneuver, and maintain somewhat close formation with the capsule as it swings by the moon to provide the ultimate drone imagery of the Dragon with the lunar surface rotating underneath.  Images will be transmitted to the capsule as part of the tourist package and for SpaceX promotional use.

Such a thing could also be as simple as a few wifi GoPros or commercial 360 degree ball cameras ejected from under the nose cap.

I hadn't seen your post, yep that's what I mean. I'd think this sort of space Drone would also have some practical uses. It would have been nice for the SpaceShuttle or Apollo 13 to have had an easy way to visually inspect the outside of the ship.

It might be that much of the cost would be subsidized by GoPro or other Camera or VR company just for PR value for their logo and equipment.


Offline Jim

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Re: A Camera Drone for space
« Reply #3 on: 03/07/2017 04:04 pm »
Would require mounting multiple antennas and maybe transmitters to the outside (in the trunk vs in the Dragon) of the vehicle.  And then there is the associated wiring in the Dragon.  Not a simple mod.

Offline philw1776

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Re: A Camera Drone for space
« Reply #4 on: 03/07/2017 04:07 pm »
Proposed and discussed this fun idea in the SpaceX Lunar figure 8  thread. 
I was concerned that an inadvertent accident could do something like wipe out the communications antennae.  There is a reason that with ISS they're very careful about approaching vehicles.  Maybe with ISS its just because of the far greater mass  of approaching resupply vehicles.
If it's safe, i for one would LOVE to see the moon dragon carry a drone dispatched from the trunk.  Epic pictures at lunar low altitude flyby.
FULL SEND!!!!

Offline whitelancer64

Re: A Camera Drone for space
« Reply #5 on: 03/07/2017 04:09 pm »
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline virnin

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Re: A Camera Drone for space
« Reply #6 on: 03/07/2017 04:13 pm »
They have been flying prototypes in the ISS for years.  See S.P.H.E.R.E.S.
They pre-date VR/ball cams but the guidance, communication and propulsion (warm CO2) has gotten a lot of flying time.

Creating an update with modern batteries and processing power would seem a logical evolution.

Offline Ludus

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Re: A Camera Drone for space
« Reply #7 on: 03/07/2017 04:19 pm »
You're thinking of something like this:

https://phys.org/news/2016-10-selfie-microsatellite-captures-images-chinese.html

Sort of. Except able to carry ultra hi res and VR cameras, maneuverable in the area of the ship, and perhaps rechargeable/reusable (until the trunk is expended). Not just a microsat that can shoot selfies but a space Camera Drone.

Offline Ludus

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Re: A Camera Drone for space
« Reply #8 on: 03/07/2017 04:22 pm »
They have been flying prototypes in the ISS for years.  See S.P.H.E.R.E.S.
They pre-date VR/ball cams but the guidance, communication and propulsion (warm CO2) has gotten a lot of flying time.

Creating an update with modern batteries and processing power would seem a logical evolution.

https://www.nasa.gov/spheres/home That seems related.

Offline SWGlassPit

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Re: A Camera Drone for space
« Reply #9 on: 03/07/2017 04:26 pm »
At one point, this was part of the CONOPS for ISS.  It was a piece of hardware called AERCam.  A proof of concept demonstration flew on STS-87.  I can't find any concrete information for when or why it was cancelled, though.

Offline matthewkantar

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Re: A Camera Drone for space
« Reply #10 on: 03/07/2017 04:27 pm »
To simplify the thing, it could be a one use item. It would be released at the optimum time to get the hero shot, and then left on its own. This would eliminate worries about it doing any damage.

Alternately, it could be on an extensible arm (selfie stick) to capture images like Curiousity has. And then fold back up. This eliminates the need for antennas and RF interference worries.

Matthew

Offline Ludus

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Re: A Camera Drone for space
« Reply #11 on: 03/07/2017 04:52 pm »
To simplify the thing, it could be a one use item. It would be released at the optimum time to get the hero shot, and then left on its own. This would eliminate worries about it doing any damage.

Alternately, it could be on an extensible arm (selfie stick) to capture images like Curiousity has. And then fold back up. This eliminates the need for antennas and RF interference worries.

Matthew

A one shot expendable version would be easiest. I don't think a selfie stick gets enough of the value of a free flying Drone to be an alternative.

Offline Negan

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Re: A Camera Drone for space
« Reply #12 on: 03/07/2017 05:11 pm »
Use a arm with a long inflatable thin tether to the camera. This keeps it still and allows a full view of the Dragon and background. Also always a wired connection to the camera.

Edit: allows
« Last Edit: 03/07/2017 08:48 pm by Negan »

Offline whitelancer64

Re: A Camera Drone for space
« Reply #13 on: 03/07/2017 08:43 pm »
At one point, this was part of the CONOPS for ISS.  It was a piece of hardware called AERCam.  A proof of concept demonstration flew on STS-87.  I can't find any concrete information for when or why it was cancelled, though.

The most recent report on AERCam I can find is from February 2012. There are some concerns presented about how and where to dock AERCam, or how to retrieve it after flight.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20120002583.pdf

It's worth noting that experiments with similar technology is ongoing - the SPHERES (Synchronized Position Hold Engage and Reorient Experimental Satellite) test flight program on the ISS.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline IainMcClatchie

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Re: A Camera Drone for space
« Reply #14 on: 03/08/2017 12:41 am »
I love this idea.

BTW: the SpaceX trajectory is going to skim the Moon (awesome visuals!), but then travel out past the Moon's orbit before coming back.  Presumably this is to nab the record for max distance from Earth.  It implies that there will be no shot with both the Earth rising over the Moon horizon, while close to the Moon.  There will be an Earth setting shot during the initial approach.

Getting a shot of the Dragon re-entering the Earth's atmosphere would be Extra Credit.  Like, lots of freakin extra credit.  And I think this can be done.  Once near enough to the atmosphere, you crack the ball in two.  Half the cameras come off the forward side and are discarded, exposing a heat shield.  The other half of the cameras operate as long as possible.  If the drone re-enters with a similar ballistic coefficient to Dragon, it'll pace it to some extent.  Separated by 1 km, with human eye (200 microrad/pixel) resolution, it'll have 20 cm/pixel resolution, good enough for 18 pixels across Dragon.  You won't see the windows very well, but you'll make out the puffs from the manoevering jets just fine.

I think you'd need a ball of around 30 or so 20 megapixel cameras.  I think 100 watts should do nicely, and a 1 foot sphere at 50 degrees C should radiate that away.  For four hours of video, you'd need 400 Wh = 2 kg of batteries and 200 TB to record everything lossless but compressed.

The big problem is getting the data back.  A radio link to dump 200 TB in 4 days (4 gigabits/sec) seems too hard, and radio isn't going to work through re-entry.  Is it too much to ask that the inner data recorder just crash into the ocean, and float until retrieval?  200 TB of flash and some battery for a beacon good for days shouldn't weigh more than a kilogram, and could be built to tolerate, say, 50-100 Gs of impact without leaking.  So there is no need for parachutes.

Anyone know how to estimate impact accelerations for a biconic hitting water?
« Last Edit: 03/08/2017 12:46 am by IainMcClatchie »

Offline Jim

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Re: A Camera Drone for space
« Reply #15 on: 03/08/2017 01:16 am »

Getting a shot of the Dragon re-entering the Earth's atmosphere would be Extra Credit.  Like, lots of freakin extra credit.  And I think this can be done. 

No, it can't

Offline Jim

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Re: A Camera Drone for space
« Reply #16 on: 03/08/2017 01:23 am »
A. After passing the moon, the camera trajectory is going divert from the Dragon because mid course corrections.  And since the Dragon does not thrusters in couples, any attitude change is going to result in a delta V

B.  What is going to aim the camera at the Dragon?

C.  Also, what is going to keep the camera from hitting the Dragon?  There still is a chance of collision.

D. There is no point in doing this during entry.  The plasma will block any imaging.
« Last Edit: 03/08/2017 01:24 am by Jim »

Offline Jcc

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Re: A Camera Drone for space
« Reply #17 on: 03/08/2017 01:39 am »
A. After passing the moon, the camera trajectory is going divert from the Dragon because mid course corrections.  And since the Dragon does not thrusters in couples, any attitude change is going to result in a delta V

B.  What is going to aim the camera at the Dragon?

C.  Also, what is going to keep the camera from hitting the Dragon?  There still is a chance of collision.

D. There is no point in doing this during entry.  The plasma will block any imaging.

A large selfie stick?

How about a realistic simulation using CGI?

Offline mark_m

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Re: A Camera Drone for space
« Reply #18 on: 03/08/2017 02:43 am »
A. After passing the moon, the camera trajectory is going divert from the Dragon because mid course corrections.  And since the Dragon does not thrusters in couples, any attitude change is going to result in a delta V

B.  What is going to aim the camera at the Dragon?

C.  Also, what is going to keep the camera from hitting the Dragon?  There still is a chance of collision.

D. There is no point in doing this during entry.  The plasma will block any imaging.

IANAEngineer (I'm a software guy), so please feel free to ignore these uninformed questions/thoughts I had when reading this. I would greatly appreciate any insight offered, however!

D seems insurmountable, but the coolness factor of the kind of pictures/video a camera drone could take I think make it worthwhile to at least explore solutions to the others.

Regarding C, I would have imagined that the relative velocities during the times when the drone would be operating would be very low, but I must be missing something. Or are there areas where a low-speed collision of an out-of-control lightweight object (perhaps surrounded by shock-absorbing plastic rings or some other "bumper") could do damage to the Dragon?

Regarding A, perhaps there could be 2 or 3 drones, and if one is in operation during course correction, it just gets left behind. Or even wilder, if we've gotten comfortable that the drone is safe to operate in the vicinity of the Dragon, perhaps it could "dock" back in the trunk prior to any maneuvers?

I could imagine that this whole idea would be a non-starter unless a totally out-of-control drone could still be sure to cause no damage to Dragon. Perhaps keep its mass way down, and limit its little gas-puff capabilities?

Offline Ludus

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Re: A Camera Drone for space
« Reply #19 on: 03/08/2017 02:45 am »
A. After passing the moon, the camera trajectory is going divert from the Dragon because mid course corrections.  And since the Dragon does not thrusters in couples, any attitude change is going to result in a delta V

B.  What is going to aim the camera at the Dragon?

C.  Also, what is going to keep the camera from hitting the Dragon?  There still is a chance of collision.

D. There is no point in doing this during entry.  The plasma will block any imaging.

At least in the version I had in mind, this is a Drone that's fully capable of maneuvering and changing it's orientation using gas thrust from a pressurized tank. One sort of Camera package discussed (VRcluster)shoots in all directions at once so aiming doesn't matter, but like a typical drone it could be a camera with a 3axis gimbal. It would redock if the Dragon changes course.

If it's mishandled there is still a chance of collisions but like aerial drones there might be features in software using the camera images or other sensors to address this.

I don't see any point in using it during reentry, that would be a completely different set of problems.

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