Author Topic: SLS/Orion Crewed Flight Proposal for EM-1  (Read 167523 times)

Offline JDTractorGuy

  • Member
  • Posts: 86
  • Hello there.
  • Liked: 104
  • Likes Given: 20
Re: SLS/Orion Crewed Flight Proposal for EM-1
« Reply #260 on: 02/26/2017 10:55 pm »
Forgive me if i'm not understanding this right, but how are they going to fit Orion on top of a Peacekeeper...?

Is it wider than I'm thinking or are they testing just the LAS with no Orion?
« Last Edit: 02/26/2017 10:55 pm by Mnethercutt »

Offline Calphor

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 189
  • Liked: 209
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: SLS/Orion Crewed Flight Proposal for EM-1
« Reply #261 on: 02/26/2017 11:10 pm »
You are thinking correctly. Peacekeeper (in this case, Minotaur IV) is 92" (2.24m) in diameter. However, Little Joe in the Apollo program was a structural frame with sufficient solid motors internal to achieve the desired acceleration.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Offline kch

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1758
  • Liked: 496
  • Likes Given: 8807
Re: SLS/Orion Crewed Flight Proposal for EM-1
« Reply #262 on: 02/27/2017 08:50 am »

You are thinking correctly. Peacekeeper (in this case, Minotaur IV) is 92" (2.24m) in diameter. However, Little Joe in the Apollo program was a structural frame with sufficient solid motors internal to achieve the desired acceleration.

Right you are -- twice, no less!  Little Joe (Mercury) and Little Joe II (Apollo) were clusters of existing solid motors mounted in an airframe (with fins large enough to ensure stable flight).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Joe_(rocket)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Joe_II

:)

Offline Lars-J

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6809
  • California
  • Liked: 8485
  • Likes Given: 5384
SLS/Orion Crewed Flight Proposal for EM-1
« Reply #263 on: 02/27/2017 08:53 pm »
Now this is an interesting wrinkle.... SpaceX has now announced plans for a crewed moon missions. (Zond style with free return trajectory)

Timeline: after Dragon is certified for ISS, they are hoping for late 2018.

http://www.spacex.com/news/2017/02/27/spacex-send-privately-crewed-dragon-spacecraft-beyond-moon-next-year

This will surely have some reverberations in NASA and their SLS/Orion contractors.
« Last Edit: 02/27/2017 08:57 pm by Lars-J »

Offline Mark S

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2284
  • Dallas, TX
  • Liked: 396
  • Likes Given: 80
Re: SLS/Orion Crewed Flight Proposal for EM-1
« Reply #264 on: 02/27/2017 10:17 pm »
Now this is an interesting wrinkle.... SpaceX has now announced plans for a crewed moon missions. (Zond style with free return trajectory)

Timeline: after Dragon is certified for ISS, they are hoping for late 2018.

http://www.spacex.com/news/2017/02/27/spacex-send-privately-crewed-dragon-spacecraft-beyond-moon-next-year

This will surely have some reverberations in NASA and their SLS/Orion contractors.

Totally legit and guaranteed to happen, no doubt about it, on time or your cheese wheel is free.


Offline Kansan52

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1488
  • Hutchinson, KS
  • Liked: 570
  • Likes Given: 539
Re: SLS/Orion Crewed Flight Proposal for EM-1
« Reply #265 on: 02/27/2017 10:40 pm »
Nothing will stand in the way of the SLS unless you can change Congress.

Offline redliox

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2539
  • Illinois USA
  • Liked: 684
  • Likes Given: 97
Re: SLS/Orion Crewed Flight Proposal for EM-1
« Reply #266 on: 02/27/2017 10:46 pm »
Nothing will stand in the way of the SLS unless you can change Congress.

I believe SLS could still have a function, but not Orion though.  If they insist on this crewed EM-1 bit and it fails in a manner akin to Apollo 1, Challenger, or Columbia...yeah if they don't die from embarrassment via Dragon they'll die on the Congressional floor for being unsafe.  The next few years will be quite interesting it looks now.
"Let the trails lead where they may, I will follow."
-Tigatron

Offline Lars-J

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6809
  • California
  • Liked: 8485
  • Likes Given: 5384
Re: SLS/Orion Crewed Flight Proposal for EM-1
« Reply #267 on: 02/27/2017 10:54 pm »
Now this is an interesting wrinkle.... SpaceX has now announced plans for a crewed moon missions. (Zond style with free return trajectory)

Timeline: after Dragon is certified for ISS, they are hoping for late 2018.

http://www.spacex.com/news/2017/02/27/spacex-send-privately-crewed-dragon-spacecraft-beyond-moon-next-year

This will surely have some reverberations in NASA and their SLS/Orion contractors.

Totally legit and guaranteed to happen, no doubt about it, on time or your cheese wheel is free.

And this is different than the EM-1 mission... how?

Anyway, my point was not to spark a heated discussion about which is better, merely how this might affect the mission that is the topic of this thread.

Offline redliox

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2539
  • Illinois USA
  • Liked: 684
  • Likes Given: 97
Re: SLS/Orion Crewed Flight Proposal for EM-1
« Reply #268 on: 02/27/2017 11:07 pm »

And this is different than the EM-1 mission... how?

Anyway, my point was not to spark a heated discussion about which is better, merely how this might affect the mission that is the topic of this thread.

Well it's being done more quickly, cheaply, and will deliver the same number of astronauts to the space region of space.  SpaceX is a single, if slightly abitious, company.  SLS is the result of roughly 10 years of debate between a conglomeration of government and old school companies.  You would think the latter would be a solid piece of work, but, if nothing else, it's been hampered by being torn between 2 (now going on 3) presidential administrations and assembled by committees of far-from-like-minded individuals in both political and engineering circles.  Dragon has been on a slow, steady path while SLS/Orion has been forced to do u-turns several times.
"Let the trails lead where they may, I will follow."
-Tigatron

Offline MATTBLAK

  • Elite Veteran & 'J.A.F.A'
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5362
  • 'Space Cadets' Let us; UNITE!! (crickets chirping)
  • New Zealand
  • Liked: 2239
  • Likes Given: 3883
Re: SLS/Orion Crewed Flight Proposal for EM-1
« Reply #269 on: 02/27/2017 11:09 pm »
Orion and SLS's only real, remaining credibility now is to switch to large(ish) scale manned Lunar Landing missions, with a view to setting up a small man-tended, semi-permanent Lunar outpost. Even an SLS with very powerful 'Dark Knights' solid boosters and the Exploration Upper Stage could not do Lunar missions in a single launch - the Orion is a bit too fat and heavy and crewed Lunar landers don't have much room for massaging their capability or mass. It would require them switching the EUS to twin J-2X engines and adding a fifth RS-25E to the Core Stage - all that redesign would cost money they don't have, nor are likely to get :(

As mentioned elsewhere, crewed Lunar missions could be done with dual launches of the SLS Block 1B; sending separately to Lunar orbit the fairly big Lunar lander - 26 to 30 tons - and the 26 ton Orion. With only two launches for SLS envisaged per year - one launchpad and limited funding - they would have to make the landing missions really count; stay a whole 14 day long Lunar day, for instance. In only two missions, they would eclipse the Apollo man hours spent on the Lunar surface. If the SLS launch rate could be raised to 3x per year with a 'funding surge', then one of the missions could be a cargo flight - landing a Habitat module one year, then cargo flights after that - including a pressurized Rover. A crew of 2 or 4 Astronauts could stay a month or more each time, once a year. Outpost buildup ramps up to 4x Astros staying for ISS-length tours of duty.

A guy can dream, can't he?! :) :( Though at this rate; a Commercial only Lunar Outpost could grow in the future, or a Government/Commercial partnership, such as we have now.
"Those who can't, Blog".   'Space Cadets' of the World - Let us UNITE!! (crickets chirping)

Online FutureSpaceTourist

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 48175
  • UK
    • Plan 28
  • Liked: 81684
  • Likes Given: 36943
Re: SLS/Orion Crewed Flight Proposal for EM-1
« Reply #270 on: 02/27/2017 11:41 pm »
Interesting from Chris' article on today's SpaceX announcement:

Quote
A NASA HQ source claimed they were not informed about the announcement ahead of Elon’s comments on Monday, although he believes Acting Administrator Robert Lightfoot and President Trump’s NASA “Landing Team” was briefed, which in turn – the source claimed – was why Mr. Lightfoot asked NASA to conduct a study into accelerating the schedule towards crewed missions on Orion.

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/02/spacex-two-citizens-dragon-2-lunar-mission/

Offline DragonRider

  • Member
  • Posts: 19
  • London
  • Liked: 9
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: SLS/Orion Crewed Flight Proposal for EM-1
« Reply #271 on: 02/27/2017 11:55 pm »
I agree with some of the comments above that SLS/Orion will need to lift their game.

Spin it any way you want, but SpaceX doing a flyby first is not a good look for SLS/Orion.

The solution is easy, do something more ambitious with SLS/Orion.  You have a President who wants ambitious results - work with that. If you can deliver an outcome that appeals to him, you might even get more funding;)
« Last Edit: 02/27/2017 11:56 pm by DragonRider »

Offline robertross

  • Canadian Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17939
  • Westphal, Nova Scotia
  • Liked: 659
  • Likes Given: 7692
Re: SLS/Orion Crewed Flight Proposal for EM-1
« Reply #272 on: 02/28/2017 12:50 am »
I agree with some of the comments above that SLS/Orion will need to lift their game.

Spin it any way you want, but SpaceX doing a flyby first is not a good look for SLS/Orion.

The solution is easy, do something more ambitious with SLS/Orion.  You have a President who wants ambitious results - work with that. If you can deliver an outcome that appeals to him, you might even get more funding;)

IMHO: The USA has a president who probably knew of this announcement by SpaceX (since he talked at least once with Mr. Musk), and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he created this situation to challenge NASA: specifically with a mission, and see what they can do after all these years and Billions of dollars.

He would probably let the general public decide (since it's their money). But nothing brings out the best of individuals & organizations like a challenge. If it can't be the Russians (Space Race), then let it be SpaceX.

The end result might be a whole range of possibilities, but one thing is certain: the intention is to move beyond LEO for America.

Offline gospacex

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3024
  • Liked: 543
  • Likes Given: 604
Re: SLS/Orion Crewed Flight Proposal for EM-1
« Reply #273 on: 02/28/2017 01:51 am »
President doesn't control the funding, Congress does.

Offline robertross

  • Canadian Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17939
  • Westphal, Nova Scotia
  • Liked: 659
  • Likes Given: 7692
Re: SLS/Orion Crewed Flight Proposal for EM-1
« Reply #274 on: 02/28/2017 02:06 am »
President doesn't control the funding, Congress does.

That's 100% correct, and wouldn't they love to have ALL levels of industry working on a space program, a war program, and an infrastructure program (for starters).

(edit to add: all to make America great again)

Maybe we'll find out tomorrow in his address to congress.
« Last Edit: 02/28/2017 02:06 am by robertross »

Offline Coastal Ron

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8862
  • I live... along the coast
  • Liked: 10199
  • Likes Given: 11934
Re: SLS/Orion Crewed Flight Proposal for EM-1
« Reply #275 on: 02/28/2017 03:19 am »
IMHO: The USA has a president who probably knew of this announcement by SpaceX (since he talked at least once with Mr. Musk), and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he created this situation to challenge NASA

The article says:

"A NASA HQ source claimed they were not informed about the announcement ahead of Elon’s comments on Monday, although he believes Acting Administrator Robert Lightfoot and President Trump’s NASA “Landing Team” was briefed, which in turn – the source claimed – was why Mr. Lightfoot asked NASA to conduct a study into accelerating the schedule towards crewed missions on Orion."

So this may not have reached Trump directly, but Trump's people were given a heads up.

Quote
: specifically with a mission, and see what they can do after all these years and Billions of dollars.

That is not how complex contracts work.  For instance, you wouldn't trying filling up a dam before it's completely built since you know all the work hasn't been completed and the dam may fail.  So it is with the SLS and Orion, in that this effort is requesting them to do something they hadn't planned on doing, so there is added risk - risk with the crew, and risk with taxpayer money too.

Quote
He would probably let the general public decide (since it's their money).

What mechanism would he use to gauge public interest?  Twitter polls?

The only validated method of determining taxpayer feelings on something is through a ballot box, although polls can be pretty helpful.  However since Trump doesn't believe in polls, then he'll just have to do what he was elected to do - make decisions on his own, and find out during the next election if he made enough right decisions.

Quote
But nothing brings out the best of individuals & organizations like a challenge. If it can't be the Russians (Space Race), then let it be SpaceX.

Races that don't have clear goals are wastes of money.  Which if this EM-1 proposal is because of what SpaceX is doing, would mean that this EM-1 effort is a waste of money.  Let's hope not, but we know this was not inspired by technical reasons but political ones.

Quote
The end result might be a whole range of possibilities, but one thing is certain: the intention is to move beyond LEO for America.

Remember the SLS and Orion are just transportation systems, not exploration hardware.  And Congress has yet to fund any HSF programs that require the SLS and Orion to leave LEO.  This proposed EM-1 mission does nothing to change that situation since it should be assumed that Boeing and Lockheed Martin can build hardware that can redo something we did 50 years ago.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline A_M_Swallow

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8906
  • South coast of England
  • Liked: 500
  • Likes Given: 223
Re: SLS/Orion Crewed Flight Proposal for EM-1
« Reply #276 on: 02/28/2017 05:30 am »
Orion on SLS to lunar orbit will be seen as a catch up. NASA will also soon reach its legal restrictions banning it from competing with the private sector.

Even the Block 1 SLS can lift more than the Falcon Heavy. So the SLS can make a living as the government run big heavy mover.

An early mission for the SLS could be to put a Deep Space Habitat (DSH) spacestation in orbit around the Moon. With station keeping, multiple docking ports and a hanger for the reusable lunar lander such a spacestation will be too massive for a single Falcon Heavy launch.

A Moon village is likely to contain several buildings. Over the coming years the SLS can deliver the Federal buildings and rovers to the DSH for the lander to land.

Offline A_M_Swallow

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8906
  • South coast of England
  • Liked: 500
  • Likes Given: 223
Re: SLS/Orion Crewed Flight Proposal for EM-1
« Reply #277 on: 02/28/2017 05:34 am »
The Orion has to be justified. What can the Orion do that Dragon V2 and CST-100 cannot do?
Longer missions?
Re-entry from higher orbits?

Can Orion still remote control other vehicles like landers?
The Shuttle found an arm to be very useful. Does Orion have an arm? Possibly as an optional tool.

Offline ChrisWilson68

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5266
  • Sunnyvale, CA
  • Liked: 4992
  • Likes Given: 6459
Re: SLS/Orion Crewed Flight Proposal for EM-1
« Reply #278 on: 02/28/2017 06:08 am »
An early mission for the SLS could be to put a Deep Space Habitat (DSH) spacestation in orbit around the Moon. With station keeping, multiple docking ports and a hanger for the reusable lunar lander such a spacestation will be too massive for a single Falcon Heavy launch.

That could conceivably be a mission for SLS someday.  But it can't possibly be an early mission.  Even if the money for DSH suddenly appeared out of nowhere, it would take NASA a long time to ramp the program up, design the DSH, build it, and test it.

There isn't really any chance of an early mission for SLS that actually requires SLS because any payload that would require it would take years for NASA to develop.  For early SLS missions, Orion is the only game in town.

Offline ChrisWilson68

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5266
  • Sunnyvale, CA
  • Liked: 4992
  • Likes Given: 6459
Re: SLS/Orion Crewed Flight Proposal for EM-1
« Reply #279 on: 02/28/2017 06:15 am »
The article says:

"A NASA HQ source claimed they were not informed about the announcement ahead of Elon’s comments on Monday, although he believes Acting Administrator Robert Lightfoot and President Trump’s NASA “Landing Team” was briefed, which in turn – the source claimed – was why Mr. Lightfoot asked NASA to conduct a study into accelerating the schedule towards crewed missions on Orion."

So this may not have reached Trump directly, but Trump's people were given a heads up.

I'm not sure we can be certain that's true.  The article says the source "believes" the heads-up was given.  But the source is a NASA source, and the source says NASA was not informed.  So, the source wasn't in the loop on the heads-up.  So the source believing there was a heads up might just be pure speculation on the part of some NASA person with no inside knowledge at all about the subject.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0