Author Topic: Will Mars EVAs ever be routine?  (Read 31944 times)

Online dwheeler

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Will Mars EVAs ever be routine?
« on: 01/05/2017 05:12 pm »
I just read the update for US EVA 39 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=41871.msg1620355#msg1620355). The following quote...

Quote
SPACEWALK FOR THOMAS PESQUET
16 December 2016
...
Preparations for these complex operations started well in advance, Thomas noted on his Facebook page: “We have started well in advance to prepare for the spacewalks of January. It is a lot of work to service the suits and get them ready, get familiar with the choreography and prepare the tools and equipment. Not even mentioning the thousands of hours of work for all the personnel on the ground.”
...

...made me wonder whether Mars EVAs (or whatever the correct term is... marswalks?) will ever be as routine as I had kind of imagined... just hop in your suit and pop out with your tool box.

 For LEO EVAs, how much of the complexity of due to weightlessness? And I know you need to plan ahead so you don't forget something on Earth that you'll need, and you also can't afford to bring too much because you're always trying to limit mass, but obviously those problems are even greater on Mars.

Were the Apollo moonwalks very choreographed?

And from the same post...

Quote
...
At NASA’s mission control in Houston, ESA astronaut Luca Parmitano will direct the duo as lead communicator – a recognition of ESA’s expertise in Station operations.
...

...I think the communication time delay from Earth will mean this lead communicator role would have to be Mars based. Which really shows how important it will be to have systems expertise Mars based too.

I guess I'm thinking mostly of the first wave of manned exploration.

Thoughts?




Offline IRobot

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Re: Will Mars EVAs ever be routine?
« Reply #1 on: 01/05/2017 05:57 pm »
Mars EVAs should be much simpler. The suits should be less bulky, there is no risk of dropping a wrench to infinity, there is no need to memorize which handles to hold on to or where to place the safety tether.

At the same time, if you really need a lot of EVAs, probably a remote operated android is better.

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Will Mars EVAs ever be routine?
« Reply #2 on: 01/05/2017 06:03 pm »
Were the Apollo moonwalks very choreographed?

The Apollo lunar excursions were highly choreographed. What was done and when was timed - sometimes down to the minute - and practiced extensively beforehand. Mission Control was always keeping the astronauts on task and aware of what they were supposed to be doing.
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Online Coastal Ron

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Re: Will Mars EVAs ever be routine?
« Reply #3 on: 01/05/2017 06:14 pm »
Interesting topic, and it's related to one I've been think about for EVA's on rotating space stations - which will likely have the disadvantages of both being in space and being in gravity.

As for being routine, things become routine once the outcomes become controlled and predictable, and that usually happens with lots of repetition.

Space walks are very routine, although as you point out they are vey labor intensive management-wise.  I have a friend who is a professional diver, and he routinely dives to 100m in the ocean, which in some ways is as complicated (and potentially more dangerous) than space walks, yet they support such activity with far less overhead than space walks currently use.

Of course just because something is routine does not mean it is exempt from danger.  People die all the time in car crashes, and we think of driving as routine (and you can die while walking from car collisions too).

So are you really asking if there will ever be a point where individuals will routinely go out onto the surface of Mars without the knowledge or assistance of others?
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Offline nacnud

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Re: Will Mars EVAs ever be routine?
« Reply #4 on: 01/05/2017 06:14 pm »
Yes. 'Ever' is a long time. :)

A more interesting question to answer would be; 'what is required to make Mars EVAs routine?'

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Will Mars EVAs ever be routine?
« Reply #5 on: 01/05/2017 06:24 pm »
It'll obviously be dangerous. Think technical SCUBA dives. To make it routine may certainly be possible, but could require innovations that haven't been invented yet.
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Online dwheeler

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Re: Will Mars EVAs ever be routine?
« Reply #6 on: 01/05/2017 06:40 pm »
...
So are you really asking if there will ever be a point where individuals will routinely go out onto the surface of Mars without the knowledge or assistance of others?
Hmmm... I guess something along those lines. The "thousands of hours of work for all the personnel on the ground" leading up to the latest EVA, the level of choreography, the fact that the EVA has a "commander", etc etc... The whole thing is a really complex "big" deal. For basically a battery upgrade in this case. It sounds like the moonwalks were too. I'm just trying to imagine the same level of rigor applied to every little thing we'd need to do on the Mars surface and it seems daunting.

Offline rockets4life97

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Re: Will Mars EVAs ever be routine?
« Reply #7 on: 01/05/2017 06:49 pm »
How much of this is habit and tradition from NASA and how much is required safety procedures? Maybe an intermediate step to Mars EVAs, is how will EVAs look on a commercial station? My guess is a little more free-flow.

Online Bob Shaw

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Re: Will Mars EVAs ever be routine?
« Reply #8 on: 01/05/2017 07:20 pm »
I work as a photographer. go to sea aboard warships from time to time, and also have to climb cranes, vertical ladders, etc. I'm sometimes forced to wear anti-flash gear, over-ear ear defenders, military hard-hats etc, all the while both operating cameras and maintaining unattended cameras. I have been trained to wear a harness, and go through a whole set of checks before I go aloft etc (where I may be required to clamp my safety cable onto a variety of different things as I move across a work area). Sometimes, I go aloft in a cherry-picker. This is all done routinely, and with very few people. I've often been struck by the similarities to EVA work!

All the people involved, however, are trained, and everybody subscribes to a 'no questions' safety culture where you stop if things look wrong. They are backed up by a management hierarchy which demands this (not least because of the UK's Corporate Manslaughter laws) and which provides appropriate resources in terms of training and equipment.

Things get culturally embedded - even getting some guys to take their safety helmet off for a quick photograph of them waving it in the air when there's good news is an uphill struggle, as it just feels 'wrong' now.

Divers, I believe, share these experiences - plus the extreme physics which can kill them in seconds (though if I fell in the water I'd be just as dead as a diver who gets his mix/ascent rate/ etc wrong!).

I think you'll find that routine - but never casual - EVAs will not be an issue so long as the workplace culture supports matters properly. The present NASA approach is... ...strange. They have always micro-managed their astronauts, telling them what to do moment by moment and action by action. The Russians, however, just tell their people to go out and fix the big antenna. The Russian way, backed up by a good culture, is the way things will be.

Finally, the only reason I can see to limit EVAs has nothing to do with the people - but will the equipment hold out? The Apollo surface suits took a helluva pounding, and although the surface of Mars can't be as abrasive as that of the Moon it will nevertheless be a difficult place for equipment.
« Last Edit: 01/05/2017 07:21 pm by Bob Shaw »

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Will Mars EVAs ever be routine?
« Reply #9 on: 01/05/2017 07:26 pm »
...
So are you really asking if there will ever be a point where individuals will routinely go out onto the surface of Mars without the knowledge or assistance of others?
Hmmm... I guess something along those lines. The "thousands of hours of work for all the personnel on the ground" leading up to the latest EVA, the level of choreography, the fact that the EVA has a "commander", etc etc... The whole thing is a really complex "big" deal. For basically a battery upgrade in this case. It sounds like the moonwalks were too. I'm just trying to imagine the same level of rigor applied to every little thing we'd need to do on the Mars surface and it seems daunting.

I think Mars excursions will end up being something like the mission that's happening early on in the Martian movie. The mission commander will be directing the rest of the crew where to go and telling them what needs to get done. They'll probably get periodic updates from Earth about what data / samples the scientists want to get from what area, and so on.
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Offline Jim

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Re: Will Mars EVAs ever be routine?
« Reply #10 on: 01/05/2017 07:44 pm »
Gemini, Skylab and early shuttle EVA's didn't the same comm coverage as Apollo or ISS missions. So they haven't been overly managed.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Will Mars EVAs ever be routine?
« Reply #11 on: 01/05/2017 07:48 pm »
I think you'll find that routine - but never casual - EVAs will not be an issue so long as the workplace culture supports matters properly. The present NASA approach is... ...strange. They have always micro-managed their astronauts, telling them what to do moment by moment and action by action. The Russians, however, just tell their people to go out and fix the big antenna. The Russian way, backed up by a good culture, is the way things will be.
I did not know that about the Russian approach to EVA. I wonder how many here did? It's very different.
Also Mars can be 15 light minutes away from Earth, which will end micro management, unless they insist on a mission control on site.
Quote
Finally, the only reason I can see to limit EVAs has nothing to do with the people - but will the equipment hold out? The Apollo surface suits took a helluva pounding, and although the surface of Mars can't be as abrasive as that of the Moon it will nevertheless be a difficult place for equipment.
I would not bet too highly on that. The Martian environment is looking quite chemically aggressive, something like a powdered kitchen cleaner.

The major reason to limit EVA is radiation exposure.  The near zero magnetic field gives little protection and you'll take the equivalent of a years worth of Earth sea level radiation in a couple of weeks.

It sounds like there's plenty of scope for relaxing the NASA approach to EVA, but the question is should you require so many of them that you need to do so?
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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Will Mars EVAs ever be routine?
« Reply #12 on: 01/05/2017 08:03 pm »
Meh, the radiation isn't that much of a constraint if you consider EVA workers as radiation workers. According to my calculations, at lowish altitudes, you could be unshielded for 30-35 hours every week (as long as you're well shielded the rest of the time), which is nearly a full work week, and still stay within standard US radiation worker limits. That's a long time to be on EVA, so is suspect something else will be the constraint.

Suit wear and tear will be a thing that needs to be considered (and no, Mars soil is NOT as corrosive as kitchen cleaner... Only if /some/ of the components we've measured in /some/ spots were highly concentrated beyond their natural occurrence... In which case they'd be a handy source of chemical energy given the right catalyst).

Apollo suits were only designed for relatively short-term use and so aren't at the limit of what could be done, even still if you EVA multiple times every week you'd probably need a new suit... At least the outer layers... Every year or so.
« Last Edit: 01/05/2017 08:04 pm by Robotbeat »
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Offline guckyfan

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Re: Will Mars EVAs ever be routine?
« Reply #13 on: 01/05/2017 08:32 pm »
About abrasive Mars dust. Opportunity is there for over 13 years and the optics of the cameras are still fine, dust storms and all. It can't be that bad.

Offline meekGee

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Re: Will Mars EVAs ever be routine?
« Reply #14 on: 01/06/2017 03:17 pm »
Moondust is inherently different, since there's no wind erosion. Particles are formed by the extreme thermal cycling, and are sharp down to the molecular level.

Mars OTOH has "normal" fine dust.

For near earth EVAs, you can have 100 people on the ground supporting and EVA, and months of training and practicing beforehand.

Neither of these is possible on Mars, since you don't have those 100 people there, and you don't have the time.

So the answer to the OP is "immediately".  I dont know if "routine", but certainly much more ad hoc.

Always work in pairs, always have contingency plans ready, maybe have a backup assist crew ready to go out.

Vehicles are key.  It could be that a pressurized car with and externally mounted suit (no airlock) will be the standard surface tool.
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Online JamesH65

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Re: Will Mars EVAs ever be routine?
« Reply #15 on: 01/06/2017 03:51 pm »
In 200 years time, once Mars has been populated for 100 years, and has over 10 million inhabitants, do you think EVA's WONT be routine?

A more interesting question would be, how long will it take for EVA's to be routine.


Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Will Mars EVAs ever be routine?
« Reply #16 on: 01/06/2017 09:36 pm »
In 200 years time, once Mars has been populated for 100 years, and has over 10 million inhabitants, do you think EVA's WONT be routine?

A more interesting question would be, how long will it take for EVA's to be routine.
I think low altitude EVAs may only require a breathing mask at that time. :)

(And warm clothes, usually.)
« Last Edit: 01/06/2017 09:37 pm by Robotbeat »
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Offline dglow

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Re: Will Mars EVAs ever be routine?
« Reply #17 on: 01/07/2017 08:03 pm »
In 200 years time, once Mars has been populated for 100 years, and has over 10 million inhabitants, do you think EVA's WONT be routine?

A more interesting question would be, how long will it take for EVA's to be routine.
I think low altitude EVAs may only require a breathing mask at that time. :)

(And warm clothes, usually.)

In 200 years, pressure suit-free on the surface... do you genuinely think that is possible?

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Will Mars EVAs ever be routine?
« Reply #18 on: 01/07/2017 08:10 pm »
In 200 years time, once Mars has been populated for 100 years, and has over 10 million inhabitants, do you think EVA's WONT be routine?

A more interesting question would be, how long will it take for EVA's to be routine.
I think low altitude EVAs may only require a breathing mask at that time. :)

(And warm clothes, usually.)

In 200 years, pressure suit-free on the surface... do you genuinely think that is possible?
Yes, in Hellas Basin.

Requires a lot of work, but definitely possible. A couple F35's worth of funding (trillion) could pay for it.
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Offline john smith 19

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Re: Will Mars EVAs ever be routine?
« Reply #19 on: 01/07/2017 09:49 pm »
Quote
In 200 years, pressure suit-free on the surface... do you genuinely think that is possible?
Yes, in Hellas Basin.

I mentioned that doing this would be a major motivator for Mars settlement but AFAIK no known plan is believed capable of producing results in less than 1000 years.

So whats plan are you referring to that can raise atmospheric pressure 100x in 200 years?
Quote
Requires a lot of work, but definitely possible. A couple F35's worth of funding (trillion) could pay for it.
So 2x the most expensive weapons programme in US history ? A 2013 GAO estimate for the whole deal was $400Bn. So that's $800Bn or $113.28 from every single person on Earth.
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

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