Author Topic: Pad 39A - Transition to SpaceX Falcon Heavy debut - Thread 3  (Read 443810 times)

Offline meberbs

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Re: Pad 39A - Transition to SpaceX Falcon Heavy debut - Thread 3
« Reply #280 on: 04/14/2017 07:36 pm »
A question:
We hear that after LC-40 comes back on line, SpaceX will take LC-39A off line for at least 60 days to modify it for the 3 core Heavy. This includes adding two Tail Service Masts and rearranging and adding hold-downs to the launch table. (LT)

What prevents SpaceX from building another launch table built for 3 cores with new TSM's & hold-downs?  In principle this could be done off-site and off-line to the existing design. Then once 40 is back up they would swap the new 3 core LT for the existing 1 core LT.  Then upgrade the old 1 core LT for Boca Chica, TX which will need one before it can be activated.

Why would this not be more efficient and/or faster?
There are 2 reasons that combine to  make it less efficient the way you described:
-Nothing is gained
-There is the additional cost of building an extra launch mount.

The nothing is gained part isn't immediately obvious, but the reason is that they have the relevant pad crew working full time on 40. They won't be available to build something on 39A until 40 is done, so the only remaining advantage is that you would be able to operate 39A and 40 in parallel for most of those 60 days. This would probably only marginally improve flight rate (if at all), and no payloads before Crew Dragon DM-1 in November (and FH, but that is irrelevant until the changes are complete) require 39A.

You could propose staffing up, but that has its own costs, and generally wouldn't be worth it when you only need the extra staff for a few months. We have gotten some good information here from some of the workers themselves that this is specialized work, so you can't just hire  general contractors. I wouldn't be surprised if trying to staff up would slow down the schedule due to experienced people trying to train the temp hires.

Offline old_sellsword

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Re: Pad 39A - Transition to SpaceX Falcon Heavy debut - Thread 3
« Reply #281 on: 04/14/2017 07:38 pm »
Why would this not be more efficient and/or faster?

Probably because the current reaction frame took a massive amount of work to make, and they're not made to be replaced frequently (if at all). Plus in the long run, one frame with two "little" plugs makes way more sense than two entire reaction frames.

It'd be interesting to hear a more qualified member like ShawnGSE chime in on the specifics though.
« Last Edit: 04/14/2017 07:41 pm by old_sellsword »

Offline KaiFarrimond

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Re: Pad 39A - Transition to SpaceX Falcon Heavy debut - Thread 3
« Reply #282 on: 04/14/2017 07:39 pm »
I wonder if they'll start prepping for crew arm installation or even begin installation during the FH upgrade to 39A, or will they install it like how they did with the Atlas one, little by little between launches?
I imagine that they'll definitely use that time to start on the Crew Access Arm as long as they have the people to do so.
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Offline Kansan52

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Re: Pad 39A - Transition to SpaceX Falcon Heavy debut - Thread 3
« Reply #283 on: 04/14/2017 08:16 pm »
Actually, I'd expect because it is such a huge job that it would not save any time.

The thing that comes to mind is doing mods on Vandenberg launch plate in between Iridium launches and then doing an east/west swap. But it's such huge gear, I can' imagine a way to move after doing the changes. Guess that would be a problem for a 39a/BC swap as well.

Offline PahTo

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Re: Pad 39A - Transition to SpaceX Falcon Heavy debut - Thread 3
« Reply #284 on: 04/14/2017 09:16 pm »
A question:
We hear that after LC-40 comes back on line, SpaceX will take LC-39A off line for at least 60 days to modify it for the 3 core Heavy. This includes adding two Tail Service Masts and rearranging and adding hold-downs to the launch table. (LT)

What prevents SpaceX from building another launch table built for 3 cores with new TSM's & hold-downs? 



Presumably the people who would be building the new table for 39A are the same people who are already repairing 40 at double-time. Perhaps on of the folks working the pad can confirm.

I think this is the largest factor.  Additionally, and as others have pointed out, it would be more work than its worth since the elements for the 3 core variant are already fabricated and are awaiting integration with the existing 39A hardware.

Offline Comga

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Re: Pad 39A - Transition to SpaceX Falcon Heavy debut - Thread 3
« Reply #285 on: 04/14/2017 10:34 pm »
Pad facilities/GSE are hyperspecialized to each location. Usually you build them in location to extreme tolerances.

Very tedious and careful work that isn't "portable".

That makes the most sense to me.
My post explained why it wouldn't be an extra launch plate, but your statement says why it would be a waste to adapt a new one to LC-39A and re-adapt the current one to Boca Chica.
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline Lar

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Re: Pad 39A - Transition to SpaceX Falcon Heavy debut - Thread 3
« Reply #286 on: 04/14/2017 10:55 pm »

I think this is the largest factor.  Additionally, and as others have pointed out, it would be more work than its worth since the elements for the 3 core variant are already fabricated and are awaiting integration with the existing 39A hardware.
presumably? (might have missed it)
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Offline cscott

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Re: Pad 39A - Transition to SpaceX Falcon Heavy debut - Thread 3
« Reply #287 on: 04/14/2017 11:09 pm »
The launch table is not easily detached from the strong back once attached.  Building an entirely new TEL is a yearlong effort.  And likely the construction is not the gating factor: it's the checkout and integration which eats time.

So it wouldn't be faster nor efficient, esp since the folks who would be working on it are the same ones currently bringing up 40.

Offline IntoTheVoid

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Re: Pad 39A - Transition to SpaceX Falcon Heavy debut - Thread 3
« Reply #288 on: 04/14/2017 11:38 pm »
...  Building an entirely new TEL is a yearlong effort. ...

If true then Pad 40 couldn't be ready anywhere close to August, and SpaceX maintains that it will.

Offline envy887

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Re: Pad 39A - Transition to SpaceX Falcon Heavy debut - Thread 3
« Reply #289 on: 04/14/2017 11:48 pm »
...  Building an entirely new TEL is a yearlong effort. ...

If true then Pad 40 couldn't be ready anywhere close to August, and SpaceX maintains that it will.

Unless they started last September...

Offline IntoTheVoid

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Re: Pad 39A - Transition to SpaceX Falcon Heavy debut - Thread 3
« Reply #290 on: 04/15/2017 04:25 am »
...  Building an entirely new TEL is a yearlong effort. ...

If true then Pad 40 couldn't be ready anywhere close to August, and SpaceX maintains that it will.

Unless they started last September...
So, you now believe that they have two teams, since they were working on 39A at that time?

Offline dorkmo

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Re: Pad 39A - Transition to SpaceX Falcon Heavy debut - Thread 3
« Reply #291 on: 04/15/2017 06:07 am »
so what youre saying is that TELs are not made of LEGO elements?

Offline vanoord

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Re: Pad 39A - Transition to SpaceX Falcon Heavy debut - Thread 3
« Reply #292 on: 04/15/2017 08:48 am »
...  Building an entirely new TEL is a yearlong effort. ...

If true then Pad 40 couldn't be ready anywhere close to August, and SpaceX maintains that it will.

Unless they started last September...
So, you now believe that they have two teams, since they were working on 39A at that time?

I've always suspected that the decision to build a new TEL would have been made very soon after the incident at LC40 - it would have been evident early on that the original TEL could not be recovered and unless a decision was made to abandon the pad entirely, then there was no reason not to start work on what would be the longest-lead item for the rebuilding.

As for the two teams - I'd assume that the fabrication of the TEL frame would be undertaken by an outside contractor and then it would be fitted out in situ by the pad team. I think there's a quote in the LC40 thread from someone who's been working at LC39 saying pretty much that.


Offline darkenfast

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Re: Pad 39A - Transition to SpaceX Falcon Heavy debut - Thread 3
« Reply #293 on: 04/16/2017 03:05 am »
IRT the 40 vs 39A efforts: remember, it isn't a case of "everybody finish 39A and THEN everybody works on 40!".  People have probably been moving over to the 40 project for some time and some design and fabrication was probably going for both pads, as well.  There's probably a multitude of contracts and contractors flying around on this.  Since we can't be "flies on the wall" at planning meetings, we simply don't have enough information.
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Offline old_sellsword

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Re: Pad 39A - Transition to SpaceX Falcon Heavy debut - Thread 3
« Reply #294 on: 04/18/2017 01:05 am »
Reddit user MicroMatrixx found the NASA video of SpaceX's Pad 39A water deluge test. Here's the link to the file in their new online database, and the video file is attached.
« Last Edit: 04/18/2017 01:33 am by old_sellsword »

Offline corrodedNut

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Re: Pad 39A - Transition to SpaceX Falcon Heavy debut - Thread 3
« Reply #295 on: 04/26/2017 02:20 pm »
New Google Earth images from this March:

Offline rpapo

In the upper left of the second picture above, we see a interesting arrangement of wide and narrow water pipes.  Does anybody here have any idea why it is set up that way?  One wide pipe splits to several narrow pipes, then they rejoin to form a single pipe again before going to the pad, presumably to feed the water birds?  Something to make the water flow better, or to reduce hydraulic shock?
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Offline Johnnyhinbos

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Re: Pad 39A - Transition to SpaceX Falcon Heavy debut - Thread 3
« Reply #297 on: 04/26/2017 03:58 pm »
In the upper left of the second picture above, we see a interesting arrangement of wide and narrow water pipes.  Does anybody here have any idea why it is set up that way?  One wide pipe splits to several narrow pipes, then they rejoin to form a single pipe again before going to the pad, presumably to feed the water birds?  Something to make the water flow better, or to reduce hydraulic shock?
It looks like valving - it's easier and quicker to control flow through smaller diameter pipes that one or two honkers...
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Offline Jim

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Re: Pad 39A - Transition to SpaceX Falcon Heavy debut - Thread 3
« Reply #298 on: 04/26/2017 07:13 pm »
In the upper left of the second picture above, we see a interesting arrangement of wide and narrow water pipes.  Does anybody here have any idea why it is set up that way?  One wide pipe splits to several narrow pipes, then they rejoin to form a single pipe again before going to the pad, presumably to feed the water birds?  Something to make the water flow better, or to reduce hydraulic shock?

That is shuttle legacy infrastructure.  There weren't valves large enough that could react the way they needed.

Those were there before Musk was 10 year old. 
« Last Edit: 04/26/2017 07:16 pm by Jim »

Offline Jim

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Re: Pad 39A - Transition to SpaceX Falcon Heavy debut - Thread 3
« Reply #299 on: 04/26/2017 07:16 pm »
In the upper left of the second picture above,

So why the interest now?  Just because LC-39 has the smell of musk on it now?

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