Author Topic: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine  (Read 124069 times)

Online gongora

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1634
  • US
  • Liked: 1078
  • Likes Given: 853
Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #360 on: 06/30/2017 03:59 PM »
Could SpaceX's Rapter Power Pack be used or lessons learned to mature Blue's BE-4 development?

1.  They are not the same type of engine design (ORSC for BE-4, FFSC for Raptor).
2.  Why would SpaceX turn their proprietary designs and test results over to a competitor?

Online abaddon

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1407
  • Liked: 871
  • Likes Given: 683
Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #361 on: 06/30/2017 04:27 PM »
First of all, no.

Second, even if yes, why would SpaceX be interested in helping a competitor?

Third, Blue is fully capable of figuring this out on their own, and are in fact the most expert of experts dealing with their own engine design.

It's gonna be fine without outside help.

Offline Lar

  • Fan boy at large
  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8154
  • Saw Gemini live on TV
  • A large LEGO storage facility ... in Michigan
  • Liked: 4903
  • Likes Given: 3327
Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #362 on: 06/30/2017 04:49 PM »
This isn't space policy, thanks. It's also not about SpaceX...
« Last Edit: 06/30/2017 04:50 PM by Lar »
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline 99miles

  • Member
  • Posts: 9
  • Denver
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #363 on: 07/13/2017 05:42 PM »
Does anyone have any guesses about the burn time of the BE-4 (at 100% rated thrust)?  Will it be similar to 270 second burn time of the RD-180?

Offline brickmack

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 227
  • USA
  • Liked: 68
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #364 on: 07/13/2017 09:05 PM »
For Vulcan you mean? Its propellant mass is estimated at like 380 tons for the core stage. 2x BE-4s put out (at sea level), ~4800000 newtons thrust at ~311 seconds ISP.

4800000 = 9.8 * 311 * flowRate

FlowRate = 1.57 tons/second

About 242 seconds, or just over 4 minutes (probably closer to 5 or 5.5 with throttling)

Online FutureSpaceTourist

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3617
  • UK
    • Plan 28
  • Liked: 2418
  • Likes Given: 791
Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #365 on: 07/13/2017 09:47 PM »
Quote
Madison County Commission votes to do their part in Blue Origin agreement

POSTED 5:24 PM, JULY 12, 2017, BY CAITLAN DALLAS, UPDATED AT 09:28PM, JULY 12, 2017

Quote
"This commission voted to authorize that we do site preparation, and that we also contributed a half a million dollars towards this incentive package,"

http://whnt.com/2017/07/12/madison-county-commission-votes-to-do-their-part-in-blue-origin-agreement/

Online FutureSpaceTourist

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3617
  • UK
    • Plan 28
  • Liked: 2418
  • Likes Given: 791
Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #366 on: 07/15/2017 05:43 PM »
Quote
Huntsville Oks deal 'confident' Blue Origin plant is coming

Updated on July 15, 2017 at 11:43 AM
Posted on July 14, 2017 at 5:17 AM

The Huntsville City Council unanimously approved a deal Thursday night to bring a $200 million Blue Origin rocket engine factory and up to 400 high-paying jobs to Cummings Research Park.

That so-called Project Development Agreement depends on Blue Origin Alabama getting an engine production contract from United Launch Alliance. [...]

http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2017/07/huntsville_oks_deal_confident.html

The agreement with Blue Origin is attached.

Offline edkyle99

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12551
    • Space Launch Report
  • Liked: 3347
  • Likes Given: 559
Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #367 on: 07/16/2017 01:10 AM »
On May 14, after the BE-4 powerpack failure on Blue's Texas test stand, the company tweeted that it would be "back into testing soon".  Two months have now passed.  Is there any evidence that testing of any kind has resumed?

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 07/16/2017 01:11 AM by edkyle99 »

Online Robotbeat

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26577
  • Minnesota
  • Liked: 6468
  • Likes Given: 4694
Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #368 on: 07/16/2017 04:12 PM »
On May 14, after the BE-4 powerpack failure on Blue's Texas test stand, the company tweeted that it would be "back into testing soon".  Two months have now passed.  Is there any evidence that testing of any kind has resumed?

 - Ed Kyle
Gradatim, Ed, Gradatim.
« Last Edit: 07/16/2017 04:12 PM by Robotbeat »
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Online yokem55

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 393
  • Oregon (Ore-uh-gun dammit)
  • Liked: 202
  • Likes Given: 12
Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #369 on: 07/16/2017 04:48 PM »
On May 14, after the BE-4 powerpack failure on Blue's Texas test stand, the company tweeted that it would be "back into testing soon".  Two months have now passed.  Is there any evidence that testing of any kind has resumed?

 - Ed Kyle
Well, if it's a design problem, then the hardware rich approach will mean that there is a lot of hardware that's been made that can't be used and new hardware would have to be built to fix the issue and that will take time. If it's a sequencing or controller issue, then I would expect them to be testing again shortly.

Offline edkyle99

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12551
    • Space Launch Report
  • Liked: 3347
  • Likes Given: 559
Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #370 on: 08/09/2017 03:41 AM »
Or, perhaps its more ... late fall now? How's it going in the Texas heat?
Blue would be crowing if there had been any success, I think. 

 - Ed Kyle

Offline HVM

  • Member
  • Posts: 76
  • Finland
  • Liked: 73
  • Likes Given: 62
Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #371 on: 08/09/2017 07:59 AM »
Even if BE-4 is considered here as moderate in technical aspects (compared to Raptor), it's still an oxidizer-rich staged combustion engine. And Americans never built, -and used- one for orbital flight. Also this is from company which has never built orbital class engine before. So, some delays are expected.

Offline StvB

  • Member
  • Posts: 11
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #372 on: 08/09/2017 12:28 PM »
Even if BE-4 is considered here as moderate in technical aspects (compared to Raptor), it's still an oxidizer-rich staged combustion engine. And Americans never built, -and used- one for orbital flight. Also this is from company which has never built orbital class engine before. So, some delays are expected.

The RD-180 and 181 (Both from NPOE) are used on American rockets currently flying (Atlas and Antares, respectively). Not sure how easily that experience translates to future use of the BE-4, though.
-Steve

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31130
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 9387
  • Likes Given: 296
Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #373 on: 08/09/2017 12:46 PM »
It doesn't

Online Robotbeat

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26577
  • Minnesota
  • Liked: 6468
  • Likes Given: 4694
Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #374 on: 08/09/2017 12:47 PM »
Even if BE-4 is considered here as moderate in technical aspects (compared to Raptor), it's still an oxidizer-rich staged combustion engine. And Americans never built, -and used- one for orbital flight. Also this is from company which has never built orbital class engine before. So, some delays are expected.
Good point.

I'm excited that we have bothe Blue Origin and SpaceX, both BE-4 and Raptor. Wonderful assets, both represent an improvement in the state of the art.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline StvB

  • Member
  • Posts: 11
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #375 on: 08/09/2017 01:02 PM »
It doesn't

I figured as much.

I'm excited that we have bothe Blue Origin and SpaceX, both BE-4 and Raptor. Wonderful assets, both represent an improvement in the state of the art.

It's definitely exciting to take in and I really enjoy reading the investigative work of people here on NSF
-Steve

Offline HVM

  • Member
  • Posts: 76
  • Finland
  • Liked: 73
  • Likes Given: 62
Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #376 on: 08/09/2017 06:42 PM »
...
The RD-180 and 181 (Both from NPOE) are used on American rockets currently flying (Atlas and Antares, respectively). Not sure how easily that experience translates to future use of the BE-4, though.

-Russian engines. I think, even as ULA has boosted, that they have RD-180 blueprints, Russian still have the secret sauce for oxygen-rich tech (-cough; porcelain enamel coating*; cough -). And like Jim says Blue doesn't have access for those.

*"Currently, the Russian-developed enamel coatings are a far more mature and proven technology. However, application of these special coatings and/or advanced materials to U.S. ORSC engine designs has not been fully proven, so a comprehensive risk reduction program will be required."

-Liquid Rocket Hydrocarbon Booster Engines (LRHCBE’s) for Launch Vehicles – A Status Report
Robert L. Sackheim  Aerospace Propulsion Consultant, Huntsville, Alabama



Offline flyright

  • Member
  • Posts: 80
  • Denver, Colorado
  • Liked: 84
  • Likes Given: 103
Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #377 on: 08/09/2017 07:44 PM »
...
The RD-180 and 181 (Both from NPOE) are used on American rockets currently flying (Atlas and Antares, respectively). Not sure how easily that experience translates to future use of the BE-4, though.

-Russian engines. I think, even as ULA has boosted, that they have RD-180 blueprints, Russian still have the secret sauce for oxygen-rich tech (-cough; porcelain enamel coating*; cough -). And like Jim says Blue doesn't have access for those.

*"Currently, the Russian-developed enamel coatings are a far more mature and proven technology. However, application of these special coatings and/or advanced materials to U.S. ORSC engine designs has not been fully proven, so a comprehensive risk reduction program will be required."

-Liquid Rocket Hydrocarbon Booster Engines (LRHCBE’s) for Launch Vehicles – A Status Report
Robert L. Sackheim  Aerospace Propulsion Consultant, Huntsville, Alabama


Now I'm curious. Where are the enamel coatings used in an ORSC engine? Bearings? Turbine blades?, chamber walls? Everything exposed to oxygen?
« Last Edit: 08/09/2017 07:45 PM by flyright »

Offline StvB

  • Member
  • Posts: 11
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #378 on: 08/09/2017 11:15 PM »
-Russian engines. I think, even as ULA has boosted, that they have RD-180 blueprints, Russian still have the secret sauce for oxygen-rich tech (-cough; porcelain enamel coating*; cough -). And like Jim says Blue doesn't have access for those.

*"Currently, the Russian-developed enamel coatings are a far more mature and proven technology. However, application of these special coatings and/or advanced materials to U.S. ORSC engine designs has not been fully proven, so a comprehensive risk reduction program will be required."

-Liquid Rocket Hydrocarbon Booster Engines (LRHCBE’s) for Launch Vehicles – A Status Report
Robert L. Sackheim  Aerospace Propulsion Consultant, Huntsville, Alabama


Now I'm curious. Where are the enamel coatings used in an ORSC engine? Bearings? Turbine blades?, chamber walls? Everything exposed to oxygen?

From the document quoted by HVM:
Quote
It is well known that Russian engine designs have overcome this material incompatibility challenge by using inert enamel coatings on traditional high-strength turbine alloys and hot-gas ducting. The alloys provide the structural load support, while the enamel coating provides the requisite hot-oxygen-rich environment protection for various exposed surfaces.

And a link should you wish to read more: http://guest.warr.de/Archiv/Konferenzen/EUCASS_2013_Papers/full/p596.pdf

Is this something that Blue will certainly need to overcome on the BE-4 or is a `medium-performing version of a high-performance design' somehow able to get away without such enamel coatings? If the speculating is true that they'll gradually improve to be a high-performing version, then maybe it is eventually unavoidable.
-Steve

Online gongora

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1634
  • US
  • Liked: 1078
  • Likes Given: 853
Re: Blue Origin's BE-4 Engine
« Reply #379 on: 08/10/2017 12:32 AM »
Is this something that Blue will certainly need to overcome on the BE-4 or is a `medium-performing version of a high-performance design' somehow able to get away without such enamel coatings? If the speculating is true that they'll gradually improve to be a high-performing version, then maybe it is eventually unavoidable.

Based on past hints we've seen the new engines may be using nickel superalloys that weren't in common use when the Russians first designed their engines.

Tags: