Author Topic: New crew vehicles to scale?  (Read 19041 times)

Offline Ike17055

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New crew vehicles to scale?
« on: 10/08/2015 03:05 AM »
In watching the new crew tower go up for Star Liner, i had to wonder how the new vehicles compare in scale to current and  previous vehicles, but I have never seen a direct comparison with the new and older vehicles.  would anyone have or know of a good comparison graphic? In particular, i would favor seeing how Starliner on Atlas v (and maybe eventually, starliner on the Vulcan booster) compares sideby side with Falconv 2, STS, Aand maybe Saturn 1b, our previous orbital workhorse.

Offline docmordrid

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Re: New crew vehicles to scale?
« Reply #1 on: 10/08/2015 04:20 PM »
This do? F9 Full Thrust would be about 6 feet taller.
« Last Edit: 10/08/2015 04:27 PM by docmordrid »
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Online llanitedave

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Re: New crew vehicles to scale?
« Reply #2 on: 10/08/2015 06:09 PM »
Are those spacecraft diagrams really  correct?  The Apollo, CST100, and Orion look pretty close to the same size to me.
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Offline Lars-J

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Re: New crew vehicles to scale?
« Reply #3 on: 10/08/2015 06:16 PM »
Are those spacecraft diagrams really  correct?  The Apollo, CST100, and Orion look pretty close to the same size to me.

yeah, there's lots of scale inaccuracies there. CST-100 looks larger than Orion. The Vostok to Soyuz size looks off as well.

EDIT: Here is a better scale comparison of Apollo, Orion, CST-100, and Dragon: (excluding service modules/trunks)
« Last Edit: 10/08/2015 06:18 PM by Lars-J »

Offline funkyjive

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Re: New crew vehicles to scale?
« Reply #4 on: 10/08/2015 07:35 PM »
Another but no scale :(

Offline JamesG123

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Re: New crew vehicles to scale?
« Reply #5 on: 12/25/2015 11:03 PM »
Another but no scale [/img]

And sub-orbital too. Sort of like including a Sopwith Camel in a comparison of current generation fighters.

Offline Craftyatom

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Re: New crew vehicles to scale?
« Reply #6 on: 12/26/2015 05:25 PM »
EDIT: Here is a better scale comparison of Apollo, Orion, CST-100, and Dragon: (excluding service modules/trunks)

This picture looks to be about 54.3 pixels/meter - so I added some more craft to scale (not all commercial, and actually, not all spacecraft either).

While Blue is reluctant to give out any of their dimensions besides volume, they're quite proud of their 42.7" tall windows, so I've scaled the spacecraft accordingly, and it's just about 3.7m wide.  Must be a popular width for newspace capsules.
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Offline whitelancer64

Re: New crew vehicles to scale?
« Reply #7 on: 01/27/2016 03:37 PM »
There's a nice comparison of the evolution of the Falcon line of rockets I'll attach here. If anyone has a good side-view of the Atlas V with Starliner (I couldn't find one with a few quick google searches, so I gave up on that), then it would be easy to make a direct comparison of them.
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Offline whitelancer64

Re: New crew vehicles to scale?
« Reply #8 on: 01/27/2016 04:11 PM »
I just found a really good spacecraft comparison here: http://ciudad-futura.net/category/agitprop/ilustracion-e-infografia/

Also this is the best side-view of the Atlas V and Starliner I can find.
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Offline okan170

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Re: New crew vehicles to scale?
« Reply #9 on: 01/27/2016 04:49 PM »
Also this is the best side-view of the Atlas V and Starliner I can find.

After doing lots of research, I've found that a lot of the NASA images for Atlas V/Starliner side-on appear to be photographs of a desktop model.  I do hope they release some nice profile renders in the upcoming months, its kind of a big gap in their material!

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: New crew vehicles to scale?
« Reply #10 on: 01/28/2016 05:32 AM »
I just found a really good spacecraft comparison here: http://ciudad-futura.net/category/agitprop/ilustracion-e-infografia/

Thanks! Here are the volume to mass ratios

Soyuz: 1.45 L/kg
Shenzhou: 1.75 L/kg
CST-100: 0.92 L/kg
Dragon 2: 0.83 L/kg
Orion: 0.92 L/kg
Federatsiya: 1.18 L/kg

The winner is Shenzhou!
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Online AncientU

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Re: New crew vehicles to scale?
« Reply #11 on: 02/07/2016 10:28 PM »
I just found a really good spacecraft comparison here: http://ciudad-futura.net/category/agitprop/ilustracion-e-infografia/

Thanks! Here are the volume to mass ratios

Soyuz: 1.45 L/kg
Shenzhou: 1.75 L/kg
CST-100: 0.92 L/kg
Dragon 2: 0.83 L/kg
Orion: 0.92 L/kg
Federatsiya: 1.18 L/kg

The winner is Shenzhou!

Are these as-launched masses including LAS and/or trunk?
« Last Edit: 02/07/2016 10:29 PM by AncientU »
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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: New crew vehicles to scale?
« Reply #12 on: 02/08/2016 05:07 AM »
Are these as-launched masses including LAS and/or trunk?

Including trunk and excluding LAS towers, since they are ejected early in ascent.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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Re: New crew vehicles to scale?
« Reply #13 on: 02/15/2016 12:06 AM »
Are these as-launched masses including LAS and/or trunk?

Including trunk and excluding LAS towers, since they are ejected early in ascent.
Which puts dragon at a disadvantage since the LAS is an integral part of the space craft. So the comparison is not entirely fair.

Offline Arcas

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Re: New crew vehicles to scale?
« Reply #14 on: 02/15/2016 01:03 AM »
Are these as-launched masses including LAS and/or trunk?

Including trunk and excluding LAS towers, since they are ejected early in ascent.
Which puts dragon at a disadvantage since the LAS is an integral part of the space craft. So the comparison is not entirely fair.
Yeah, obviously, but Orion is designed for BEO, so it's obviously going to weigh more than the less demanding vehicles. If we were competing them, it isn't a fair fight anyways.
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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: New crew vehicles to scale?
« Reply #15 on: 02/15/2016 06:08 AM »
Which puts dragon at a disadvantage since the LAS is an integral part of the space craft. So the comparison is not entirely fair.

How is it not fair? Taking your LAS all the way to orbit is a big penalty. For the other vehicles, they have a large service module which is used for abort after LAS separation. That's part of what these comparisons are showing. A metric I care about is which design has the greatest volume to mass in orbit. Another metric is how many tonnes per crew member. Numbers below:

Soyuz: 2.41 t
Shenzhou: 2.67 t
CST-100: 1.71 t
Dragon 2: 1.71 t
Orion: 5.31 t
Federatsiya: 3.6 t

The winners are CST-100 and Dragon 2 and loser is Orion! Which scheme has the greatest volume per crew member?

Soyuz: 3.5 m
Shenzhou: 4.67 m
CST-100: 1.57 m
Dragon 2: 1.43 m
Orion: 4.88 m
Federatsiya: 4.25 m

The winner is Orion and the loser is Dragon 2!
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Offline sdsds

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Re: New crew vehicles to scale?
« Reply #16 on: 02/15/2016 06:19 AM »
A metric I care about is which design has the greatest volume to mass in orbit. [...]:

Soyuz: 3.5 m
Shenzhou: 4.67 m
CST-100: 1.57 m
Dragon 2: 1.43 m
Orion: 4.88 m
Federatsiya: 4.25 m

The winner is Orion and the loser is Dragon 2!

I haven't figured out how much of each vehicle's pressurized volume is:
- available for crew members to move around in;
- accessible to crew members for e.g. storage of equipment and supplies they might need;
- totally inaccessible but inside the pressure vessel anyway.

I think the "loser" in your comparison above probably has almost all its pressurized volume available for crew to move around in. The "winner" might have lots of the other two types. Is that your sense of these as well?
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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: New crew vehicles to scale?
« Reply #17 on: 02/15/2016 06:37 AM »
I think the "loser" in your comparison above probably has almost all its pressurized volume available for crew to move around in. The "winner" might have lots of the other two types. Is that your sense of these as well?

I had assumed that those values were total volume. The habitable volumes will be less.
« Last Edit: 02/15/2016 06:41 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Online llanitedave

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Re: New crew vehicles to scale?
« Reply #18 on: 02/15/2016 03:05 PM »
Which puts dragon at a disadvantage since the LAS is an integral part of the space craft. So the comparison is not entirely fair.

How is it not fair? Taking your LAS all the way to orbit is a big penalty. For the other vehicles, they have a large service module which is used for abort after LAS separation. That's part of what these comparisons are showing. A metric I care about is which design has the greatest volume to mass in orbit. Another metric is how many tonnes per crew member. Numbers below:

Soyuz: 2.41 t
Shenzhou: 2.67 t
CST-100: 1.71 t
Dragon 2: 1.71 t
Orion: 5.31 t
Federatsiya: 3.6 t

The winners are CST-100 and Dragon 2 and loser is Orion! Which scheme has the greatest volume per crew member?

Soyuz: 3.5 m
Shenzhou: 4.67 m
CST-100: 1.57 m
Dragon 2: 1.43 m
Orion: 4.88 m
Federatsiya: 4.25 m

The winner is Orion and the loser is Dragon 2!


Is that assuming the full complement of 7 for CST 100 and Dragon 2?
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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: New crew vehicles to scale?
« Reply #19 on: 02/16/2016 04:08 AM »
Is that assuming the full complement of 7 for CST 100 and Dragon 2?

Yes.
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Online Prettz

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Re: New crew vehicles to scale?
« Reply #20 on: 02/17/2016 05:43 PM »
I just found a really good spacecraft comparison here: http://ciudad-futura.net/category/agitprop/ilustracion-e-infografia/

Also this is the best side-view of the Atlas V and Starliner I can find.
I really wish that chart included Apollo. It's kind of the metric that other capsules are judged by.

Offline Nomadd

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Re: New crew vehicles to scale?
« Reply #21 on: 02/19/2016 10:09 PM »
Is that assuming the full complement of 7 for CST 100 and Dragon 2?

Yes.
And only a crew of 4 for the Orion.

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