Author Topic: Pad 39B to gain new Flame Deflector and Trench upgrade  (Read 21357 times)

Online Lobo

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Re: Pad 39B to gain new Flame Deflector and Trench upgrade
« Reply #40 on: 02/16/2015 05:05 PM »
I doubt that's it.  I'm guessing it's just with modern CAD anaysis and materials to construct a flame deflector today, that they're able to be pretty sure that all of SLS's thrust can be channelled out just one side of 39B's trench.  And if it can handle that, then it has some benefits as Jim and others have mentioned.  STS's offset engines needed for the thrust to be divided out both sides, and with Saturn, they designed it to withstand a Nova Class rocket, and just set Saturn V up the way a Nova would sit on the pad, with it's thrust divided out both sides.  There wasn't the sort of CAD analysis available in the 1960's so there was no reason not to just to error on the side of caution in case deflecting all of Saturn V's thrust out just the north side caused some sort of problems.

That's my guess, but I was hoping for someone who knew the real reason Saturn V was divided while SLS will not be, even thought Saturn V had less thrust than SLS will, could explain fully.

PS:  I wonder if it has anything to do with the "width" of the thrust?  SLS's width will only be around 8.4m wide, pretty much just the width of the core as the RS-25 nozzles won't prodrude very far from the core (at lease as depicted in renderings of SLS).  Saturn V's was a little over 11m as the F-1 nozzles were a little wider than the 10m S-1C.  Maybe 11+m wide meant deflecting it all out to one side would mean to shallow of a slope for a deflector.  So they actually had to divide it?  SLS's deflector is shorter and would have a steeper slope.  Perhaps steep enough to be provide enough thrust redirection?

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Pad 39B to gain new Flame Deflector and Trench upgrade
« Reply #41 on: 02/16/2015 07:15 PM »
That's my guess, but I was hoping for someone who knew the real reason Saturn V was divided while SLS will not be, even thought Saturn V had less thrust than SLS will, could explain fully.
According to:
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/pao/History/SP-4204/ch11-7.html
a two-sided deflector was selected for LC 39 because that was what had been used at LC 34 and LC 37.

According to:
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/pao/History/SP-4204/ch2-4.html
a two-sided deflector was chosen for LC 34 because the four-sided deflector design previously used by ABMA/MSFC for Redstone and Jupiter would have created plumes that would have blocked views from the blockhouse.  This was an uncooled design.  Single-direction deflectors were used on Saturn test stands at MSFC and MTF, but they needed to be water-cooled and also required the pedestal to be taller, raising costs.

Presumably, flame trench science has advanced since the early 1960s, especially as it relates to the use of acoustic suppression deluge systems.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 02/16/2015 07:22 PM by edkyle99 »

Online Lobo

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Re: Pad 39B to gain new Flame Deflector and Trench upgrade
« Reply #42 on: 02/17/2015 04:11 PM »
That's my guess, but I was hoping for someone who knew the real reason Saturn V was divided while SLS will not be, even thought Saturn V had less thrust than SLS will, could explain fully.
According to:
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/pao/History/SP-4204/ch11-7.html
a two-sided deflector was selected for LC 39 because that was what had been used at LC 34 and LC 37.

According to:
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/pao/History/SP-4204/ch2-4.html
a two-sided deflector was chosen for LC 34 because the four-sided deflector design previously used by ABMA/MSFC for Redstone and Jupiter would have created plumes that would have blocked views from the blockhouse.  This was an uncooled design.  Single-direction deflectors were used on Saturn test stands at MSFC and MTF, but they needed to be water-cooled and also required the pedestal to be taller, raising costs.

Presumably, flame trench science has advanced since the early 1960s, especially as it relates to the use of acoustic suppression deluge systems.

 - Ed Kyle

Ahhh...thanks Ed.  That's the info I was looking for.

Well, one thing about all of the exhaust going north, is the plume won't obstruct the view from the Causeway when SLS takes off.  :-)

As an aside, depending on the size of a SpaceX BFR, they could probably launch it from 39A basically how they will be launching Falcon, and direct all of the exhaust out the north side rather than needing to split it.  Which means the south side of the trench could contain the erecting mechanisms.

Offline jacqmans

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Re: Pad 39B to gain new Flame Deflector and Trench upgrade
« Reply #43 on: 03/05/2016 08:48 AM »
Upgrades and modifications continue to the flame trench at Launch Pad 39B at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida. Pad B is being refurbished to support the launch of NASA’s Space Launch System rocket. The Ground Systems Development and Operations (GSDO) Program at Kennedy is helping transform the space center into a multi-user spaceport and prepare for Exploration Mission-1, deep-space missions, and the journey to Mars. For more information about GSDO, visit: www.nasa.gov/groundsystems. Photo credit: NASA/Kim Shiflett

Offline AncientU

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Re: Pad 39B to gain new Flame Deflector and Trench upgrade
« Reply #44 on: 03/05/2016 01:27 PM »
Upgrades and modifications continue to the flame trench at Launch Pad 39B at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida. Pad B is being refurbished to support the launch of NASA’s Space Launch System rocket. The Ground Systems Development and Operations (GSDO) Program at Kennedy is helping transform the space center into a multi-user spaceport and prepare for Exploration Mission-1, deep-space missions, and the journey to Mars. For more information about GSDO, visit: www.nasa.gov/groundsystems. Photo credit: NASA/Kim Shiflett

Are there any commitments from other users to use LC-39B or any work being done on the infrastructure to accommodate other users?  Haven't heard a word on that topic for a couple years...
"If we shared everything [we are working on] people would think we are insane!"
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Offline rayleighscatter

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Re: Pad 39B to gain new Flame Deflector and Trench upgrade
« Reply #45 on: 03/06/2016 12:00 AM »
Upgrades and modifications continue to the flame trench at Launch Pad 39B at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida. Pad B is being refurbished to support the launch of NASA’s Space Launch System rocket. The Ground Systems Development and Operations (GSDO) Program at Kennedy is helping transform the space center into a multi-user spaceport and prepare for Exploration Mission-1, deep-space missions, and the journey to Mars. For more information about GSDO, visit: www.nasa.gov/groundsystems. Photo credit: NASA/Kim Shiflett

There really is a remarkable amount of work that's gone on there. I have a picture from 39A that really contrasts from that last shot of 39B.

« Last Edit: 03/06/2016 12:06 AM by rayleighscatter »

Offline catdlr

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Re: Pad 39B to gain new Flame Deflector and Trench upgrade
« Reply #46 on: 04/29/2016 07:08 PM »
Kennedy's Launch Pad 39B Transforms for Launch of Largest Rocket Ever

NASAKennedy

Published on Apr 29, 2016
In the Launch Pad 39B north flame trench at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida, construction workers prepare the concrete walls for new heat-resistant bricks. The Pad B flame trench is being refurbished to support the launch of NASA’s Space Launch System rocket. The Ground Systems Development and Operations Program at Kennedy is helping transform the space center into a multi-user spaceport and prepare for Exploration Mission 1, deep-space missions, and the journey to Mars. For more information about GSDO, visit: www.nasa.gov/groundsystems.

Video Location: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=RZ9j97zxWUo

Tony De La Rosa



Offline jacqmans

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Re: Pad 39B to gain new Flame Deflector and Trench upgrade
« Reply #49 on: 07/26/2017 06:17 AM »
At Launch Pad 39B at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida, construction workers position large segments of the support hardware for a new flame deflector in the flame trench. The new flame deflector will be positioned about six feet south of the shuttle-era flame deflector’s position. During liftoff of NASA’s Space Launch System, the rocket’s flame and energy will be diverted to the north side of the flame trench. The north side of the deflector will be protected by a NASA standard coating. The south side of the deflector will not be slanted and will have no lining. The new design will provide easier access for inspection, maintenance and repair. The Ground Systems Development and Operations (GSDO) Program at Kennedy is managing the installation of the flame deflector for Exploration Mission 1, deep space missions, and NASA's Journey to Mars.
Photo credit: NASA/Kim Shiflett

Offline jacqmans

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Re: Pad 39B to gain new Flame Deflector and Trench upgrade
« Reply #50 on: 07/26/2017 06:18 AM »

Offline jacqmans

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Re: Pad 39B to gain new Flame Deflector and Trench upgrade
« Reply #51 on: 07/26/2017 06:19 AM »

Offline jacqmans

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Re: Pad 39B to gain new Flame Deflector and Trench upgrade
« Reply #52 on: 07/26/2017 06:21 AM »


Offline Lars-J

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Re: Pad 39B to gain new Flame Deflector and Trench upgrade
« Reply #54 on: 07/26/2017 04:49 PM »
I thought they were done with the flame trench wall upgrades, but in the last image we see a closeup of the south end, which looks in pretty bad condition. (Wall cracks, weeds, etc) Are they only doing the northern end?

Offline Khadgars

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Re: Pad 39B to gain new Flame Deflector and Trench upgrade
« Reply #55 on: 07/26/2017 05:35 PM »
I thought they were done with the flame trench wall upgrades, but in the last image we see a closeup of the south end, which looks in pretty bad condition. (Wall cracks, weeds, etc) Are they only doing the northern end?

That is how I understand it.  The exhaust is being channeled in one direction only, the Flame Deflector you are seeing being erected in the pictures above will direct it towards the newly minted flame trench (just completed earlier this month).  The other side of the flame trench does not need to be upgraded.

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