Author Topic: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try  (Read 8664 times)

Offline JohnFornaro

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Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« on: 09/26/2014 02:23 PM »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline antriksh

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #1 on: 09/26/2014 02:25 PM »
« Last Edit: 09/26/2014 02:28 PM by antriksh »
Nasadiya Sukta:
Srishti se pehle sat nahin thaa, asat bhi nahin | Antariksh bhi nahin, aakaash bhi nahin thaa | chhipaa thaa kyaa, kahaan, kisne dhakaa thaa | us pal to agam, atal jal bhi kahaan thaa ||

From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #2 on: 09/26/2014 03:39 PM »
Took a peek at the "Live" section first.  No news on Mangalyaan there!  MAVEN has top billing.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline gwiz

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #3 on: 09/26/2014 04:01 PM »

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #4 on: 09/26/2014 05:34 PM »
Sheesh.  ISRU, ISRO Can't keep track of all the acronyms!   Was searching for "Mangalyaan".
« Last Edit: 09/26/2014 05:35 PM by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #5 on: 09/27/2014 01:25 PM »
Reposted here:

This article is another example of what I've been calling cognitive infiltration.  Here, the technique employed is known as "damning with faint praise".

http://io9.com/is-the-focus-on-indias-cheap-mission-to-mars-missing-1639082635

Quote from: the Kinja article
1) Okay, we get it — India's Mars Orbiter Mission was spectacularly cheap, costing less than the entire budget of the Hollywood movie Gravity. But is this really what we —and India — should be focusing on?

2) No doubt, this is a stunning achievement for India. ...

3) "Our program stands out as the most cost-effective," noted Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi back in June. "There is this story of our Mars mission costing less than the Hollywood movie Gravity... Our scientists have shown the world a new paradigm of engineering and the power of imagination."

4) Clearly, India is doing something right, and they deserve to be commended...

5) First, accounting standards are not the same across agencies such as ISRO and, say, [just to pick a USG Agency at random] NASA ...

6) The "cheapness" was forced upon ISRO because of earlier failures. ...

This is just the beginning... "That pay-off is long-term, and it cannot be easily quantified. But it is huge."

1) Absolutely, cost is the main thing that should be focused on.  This author has it entirely wrong in this regard.

Elon Musk has suggested a ticket price "to Mars", not to TMI], of $500K.  If there is to be permanent human settlement off planet, then cost is the driver.  Not technology.  Not the number of volunteers. (NSoV) Not country of origin.

2) It is a stunning achievement.  There's no other way to describe it.  It is a textbook example of how applied theory works.  At this time in humanity's directed evolution, aerospace information is cheap.  Use it correctly and appropriately, and you get a successful mission.

Still, past productivity is no indicator of future productivity.  They will have to carefully monitor egos so as to ensure the success of their second mission.

3) The "paradigm of engineering" speaks quietly to my observation of the low cost of information these days.

4) They do indeed, and not faintly, as this author insists in his opening words.

5) This is the worst part of the cognitive infiltration.  There's a lot of discussion here about how the USAF doesn't really know the cost of launching and AtlasV, due to the directed evolution of proprietary cost information.  The truth of the matter is that the simple equation is income minus revenue equals profit.  When income and profit are proprietary, the equation is irreparably broken.

Our tax and accounting system is, for practical purposes, such as colonizing Luna and Mars, an impediment to the accomplishment of those goals.

6) More cognitive infiltration.  There is no "forcing".  The "cheapness" is directly related to salaries.  Period.

As always, when a commentator wants to disparage a program it is called "cheap".  when the intent is to praise a program, it's called "cost effective".

On NPR this morning, they suggested that an Indian engineer makes about $1K per month, compared to the US engineer at $10K per month.  The fact of the matter is that when an Indian engineers sez "F=ma", it has the same value as when an American engineer sez "F=ma".

It is clinically interesting to see how the titans of US industry unanimously call for a virtual elimination of minimum wage here, sending their jobs overseas, yet whine bitterly when the rest of the world outperforms them on cost. 

Our titans pretend not to understand that Mangalyaan cost a tenth of MAVEN, and that salaries probably play the biggest role in that comparison.  Our aerospace titans will also compare MAVEN, built on a half century of experience with Mangalyaan, a first effort, and assert that it is a fair comparison.

Yay India. 

Solo dicendo.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline R7

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AD·ASTRA·ASTRORVM·GRATIA

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #7 on: 09/27/2014 02:35 PM »
http://io9.com/is-the-focus-on-indias-cheap-mission-to-mars-missing-1639082635

Blah blah, here's compressed version:



India for the win!

Hey!  I resemble that!  Yer late to the game.  See my OP.

"Yay India!" Fifty percent fewer (count 'em) words.
« Last Edit: 09/27/2014 09:10 PM by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline R7

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #8 on: 09/27/2014 02:44 PM »
"Yay India!" Fifty percent (count 'em) words.

I opted the Entish way and took longer time to say it because it is worth taking a longer time to say.
AD·ASTRA·ASTRORVM·GRATIA

Offline sanman

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #9 on: 09/27/2014 07:24 PM »
In the heady days of the Apollo era, there were accompanying educational campaigns such as the one where schoolchildren were encouraged to come up with answers to the following:

"If we can land on the Moon, we can ________"


Well, likewise, with India's Mars orbiter Mission being so well-received by the Indian public, it could serve as an inspiration to countless youngsters to pursue dreams in engineering and science.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/26/opinion/indias-mars-shot.html?_r=0


Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #10 on: 09/27/2014 09:12 PM »
"Yay India!" Fifty percent fewer (count 'em) words.

I opted the Entish way and took longer time to say it because it is worth taking a longer time to say.

Sheesh.  Ya dinged me for being even more Entish than you (your uncompressed blah blah, blah argument) and then for being less Entish than you!  What's a guy gotta do around here to get some respect?
« Last Edit: 09/30/2014 12:46 PM by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Moe Grills

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #11 on: 10/04/2014 04:54 PM »
   Slightly off topic: Does India have serious plans, with a formal plenary group started, to develop and fund a Mars lander within say 10 years?

I'm confident that some Indian spacecraft designer already has made a computerized model already in his/her  bonus time.

Offline antriksh

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #12 on: 10/04/2014 05:39 PM »
   Slightly off topic: Does India have serious plans, with a formal plenary group started, to develop and fund a Mars lander within say 10 years?

I'm confident that some Indian spacecraft designer already has made a computerized model already in his/her  bonus time.

Yes I would hope the next mission includes a orbiter +  lander/rover. The Mars feasibility study conducted by ISRO in 2011 looked into all the possible mission profiles. They studied all kind of missions possible using PSLV, GSLVmk2 and LVM3. Actually, different groups from PRL recently held a discussion on how to go ahead with proposals for various science payloads for MOM-2.
Nasadiya Sukta:
Srishti se pehle sat nahin thaa, asat bhi nahin | Antariksh bhi nahin, aakaash bhi nahin thaa | chhipaa thaa kyaa, kahaan, kisne dhakaa thaa | us pal to agam, atal jal bhi kahaan thaa ||

From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline Star One

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Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #13 on: 10/04/2014 07:00 PM »
Reposted here:

This article is another example of what I've been calling cognitive infiltration.  Here, the technique employed is known as "damning with faint praise".

http://io9.com/is-the-focus-on-indias-cheap-mission-to-mars-missing-1639082635

Quote from: the Kinja article
1) Okay, we get it — India's Mars Orbiter Mission was spectacularly cheap, costing less than the entire budget of the Hollywood movie Gravity. But is this really what we —and India — should be focusing on?

2) No doubt, this is a stunning achievement for India. ...

3) "Our program stands out as the most cost-effective," noted Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi back in June. "There is this story of our Mars mission costing less than the Hollywood movie Gravity... Our scientists have shown the world a new paradigm of engineering and the power of imagination."

4) Clearly, India is doing something right, and they deserve to be commended...

5) First, accounting standards are not the same across agencies such as ISRO and, say, [just to pick a USG Agency at random] NASA ...

6) The "cheapness" was forced upon ISRO because of earlier failures. ...

This is just the beginning... "That pay-off is long-term, and it cannot be easily quantified. But it is huge."

1) Absolutely, cost is the main thing that should be focused on.  This author has it entirely wrong in this regard.

Elon Musk has suggested a ticket price "to Mars", not to TMI], of $500K.  If there is to be permanent human settlement off planet, then cost is the driver.  Not technology.  Not the number of volunteers. (NSoV) Not country of origin.

2) It is a stunning achievement.  There's no other way to describe it.  It is a textbook example of how applied theory works.  At this time in humanity's directed evolution, aerospace information is cheap.  Use it correctly and appropriately, and you get a successful mission.

Still, past productivity is no indicator of future productivity.  They will have to carefully monitor egos so as to ensure the success of their second mission.

3) The "paradigm of engineering" speaks quietly to my observation of the low cost of information these days.

4) They do indeed, and not faintly, as this author insists in his opening words.

5) This is the worst part of the cognitive infiltration.  There's a lot of discussion here about how the USAF doesn't really know the cost of launching and AtlasV, due to the directed evolution of proprietary cost information.  The truth of the matter is that the simple equation is income minus revenue equals profit.  When income and profit are proprietary, the equation is irreparably broken.

Our tax and accounting system is, for practical purposes, such as colonizing Luna and Mars, an impediment to the accomplishment of those goals.

6) More cognitive infiltration.  There is no "forcing".  The "cheapness" is directly related to salaries.  Period.

As always, when a commentator wants to disparage a program it is called "cheap".  when the intent is to praise a program, it's called "cost effective".

On NPR this morning, they suggested that an Indian engineer makes about $1K per month, compared to the US engineer at $10K per month.  The fact of the matter is that when an Indian engineers sez "F=ma", it has the same value as when an American engineer sez "F=ma".

It is clinically interesting to see how the titans of US industry unanimously call for a virtual elimination of minimum wage here, sending their jobs overseas, yet whine bitterly when the rest of the world outperforms them on cost. 

Our titans pretend not to understand that Mangalyaan cost a tenth of MAVEN, and that salaries probably play the biggest role in that comparison.  Our aerospace titans will also compare MAVEN, built on a half century of experience with Mangalyaan, a first effort, and assert that it is a fair comparison.

Yay India. 

Solo dicendo.

Did you point these out to io9?
« Last Edit: 10/04/2014 07:00 PM by Star One »

Offline sanman

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #14 on: 10/04/2014 09:42 PM »
   Slightly off topic: Does India have serious plans, with a formal plenary group started, to develop and fund a Mars lander within say 10 years?

I'm confident that some Indian spacecraft designer already has made a computerized model already in his/her  bonus time.

Yes I would hope the next mission includes a orbiter +  lander/rover. The Mars feasibility study conducted by ISRO in 2011 looked into all the possible mission profiles. They studied all kind of missions possible using PSLV, GSLVmk2 and LVM3. Actually, different groups from PRL recently held a discussion on how to go ahead with proposals for various science payloads for MOM-2.

Probably the Chandrayaan-2 lander mission would have to be done first. Then once that mission has validated some basic lander technology, a later MOM-2 lander mission would try to derive technologies for the much more complicated and difficult Mars EDL challenge.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #15 on: 10/06/2014 01:34 AM »
Reposted here:

This article is another example of what I've been calling cognitive infiltration.  Here, the technique employed is known as "damning with faint praise", blah, blah, blah...

Did you point these out to io9?

Nahhh.  No point.  Online outfits like this sell clicks, not truth.

There's a half dozen peoiple on this site who read what I have to say, and they're my target audience.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline sanman

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Offline abhishek

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #17 on: 11/12/2014 09:29 AM »
Quote
Appearing on a special show, along with all senior members of the entire Mangalyaan (Mars Mission) team, Dr Radhakrishnan said that ISRO had locked in a design of an Indian-made Martian lander and would soon be in a position to build a prototype. 

He added that Mangalyaan, the spacecraft which entered the orbit Mars orbit in September, was healthy and is now likely to remain operational for years, well beyond the six to ten months that had once been envisioned. ISRO scientists are looking at data received from the orbiter's sensors and say exciting new discoveries could be announced within two to three months.
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/india-s-first-manned-space-mission-in-2021-isro-chairman-to-ndtv-619855?pfrom=home-lateststories
10, 9, ignition sequence start 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, all engines running Lift off, we have a lift off, lift off

Offline sanman

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #18 on: 11/17/2014 07:29 PM »

Offline abhishek

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Re: Mangalyaan gets to Mars on first try
« Reply #19 on: 12/30/2014 11:15 AM »
MOM marks 100 days on New Year, to live for years

Quote
As the world rings in the New Year on January 1 Indian space scientists will have another reason to uncork the champagne: The day will mark 100 days of the Mars Orbiter Mission (MOM) in the red planet's orbit.

What's more, MOM which was given a life span of 180 days may well continue to study Martian details for up to 15 years.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/science/MOM-marks-100-days-on-New-Year-to-live-for-years/articleshow/45682718.cms
10, 9, ignition sequence start 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, all engines running Lift off, we have a lift off, lift off

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