Author Topic: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread  (Read 228180 times)

Offline sdsds

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #20 on: 09/30/2014 10:25 PM »
I believe that the protest by SNC will put a hold on CCtCap payments until the dispute is resolved.

Isn't it stronger than that? NASA cannot even enter into the awarded contracts, much less pay for work performed under them, until the dispute is resolved?
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Offline joek

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #21 on: 09/30/2014 10:49 PM »
I believe that the protest by SNC will put a hold on CCtCap payments until the dispute is resolved.
Isn't it stronger than that? NASA cannot even enter into the awarded contracts, much less pay for work performed under them, until the dispute is resolved?

Yes.  Contract award may not be completed while the protest is outstanding.  If contracts were awarded, any work incurring USG obligations would be suspended unless there are compelling reasons to do otherwise; none of those would apply in this case.  (FYI.  GAO must resolve within 100 days, although it typically takes less time.  Deadline for this dispute is 5-Jan-2015.

Offline docmordrid

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #22 on: 09/30/2014 10:58 PM »
The next question is, does that prevent SpaceX and Boeing from doing work on their own?  Presumably, one is more likely to do that than the other. How about paying for delayed milestones from CCiCap? Don't both have abort tests that moved right, not just SpaceX?
« Last Edit: 09/30/2014 10:59 PM by docmordrid »
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Offline joek

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #23 on: 10/01/2014 12:24 AM »
The next question is, does that prevent SpaceX and Boeing from doing work on their own?  Presumably, one is more likely to do that than the other. How about paying for delayed milestones from CCiCap? Don't both have abort tests that moved right, not just SpaceX?

This does not prevent Boeing or SpaceX from performing CCtCap-related work--as long as no USG obligations are incurred.  USG obligations include any work by contractors for which any payment is expected or liability incurred, and any work by NASA in support of such; e.g., consulting or other support for Boeing or SpaceX.

In short, if the work was either not part of the CCtCap contract, was at no charge (directly or indirectly) to the USG, and the work did not incur any other liabilities for which the USG might be held accountable, then SpaceX and Boeing would be free to proceed with that work.  No idea what CCtCap-related work by Boeing or SpaceX might fall into that category.

This does not prevent work from proceeding or payments being made under CCiCap.  Essentially the same situation as PlanetSpace protest of CRS, which did not prevent work continuing under COTS.
« Last Edit: 10/01/2014 12:26 AM by joek »

Offline Kabloona

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #24 on: 10/01/2014 01:34 AM »
Its sounds like you're saying the protest should have no effect on SpaceX's pad abort test schedule, correct?
« Last Edit: 10/01/2014 01:35 AM by Kabloona »

Offline woods170

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #25 on: 10/01/2014 09:06 AM »
Its sounds like you're saying the protest should have no effect on SpaceX's pad abort test schedule, correct?
Correct as the pad abort is part of CCiCAP, not CCtCAP.

Offline abaddon

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #26 on: 10/01/2014 03:02 PM »
Found this in the avweek article linked in the DreamChaser thread, but I think it's more appropriate here:

Quote
In filing its bid protest on Sept. 26, Sierra Nevada set a 10-day clock running for the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) to issue a stay of NASA’s decision. Even without a stay, the protest could place a question mark over future work by Boeing and SpaceX as they prepare their CST-100 and Dragon crew vehicles to meet NASA’s deadline of first flights in 2017. The GAO has until Jan. 5, 2015, to make its decision.
http://aviationweek.com/space/sierra-nevada-turns-international-market-dream-chaser

This is the first I have heard of a 10 day clock for an initial stay.  That's five days from now...
« Last Edit: 10/01/2014 03:02 PM by abaddon »

Offline joek

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #27 on: 10/01/2014 03:26 PM »
Avweek writer has several points wrong.  It is a 100 day clock not a 10 day clock (10 days is the window in which to file a protest after an award, which SNC did).

GAO does not issue stay; it is the contracting agency's responsibility (i.e., NASA).  The agency (NASA) must be informed of a protest within 1 day of receipt by the GAO.  That is, the GAO informs the agency; the agency then takes the required action, which will vary depending on where things are in the contracting cycle.

The stay is required, immediate, and automatic unless and until "a written finding that urgent and compelling circumstances which significantly affect interests of the United States will not permit waiting for the decision" [see 31 USC 3553]

In short, there will be no work performed under the CCtCap contract until SNC's protest is resolved.
« Last Edit: 10/01/2014 03:48 PM by joek »

Offline abaddon

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #28 on: 10/01/2014 04:09 PM »
And that's why I come here for good info and avoid reading too much into what the press say.  Thanks joek.

Offline oiorionsbelt

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #29 on: 10/01/2014 09:20 PM »


In short, there will be no work performed under the CCtCap contract until SNC's protest is resolved.
Thanks for this post joek. Just want to be sure, did you mean to say "no work performed" or no money paid out?
« Last Edit: 10/01/2014 09:20 PM by oiorionsbelt »

Offline Jcc

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #30 on: 10/01/2014 11:50 PM »


In short, there will be no work performed under the CCtCap contract until SNC's protest is resolved.
Thanks for this post joek. Just want to be sure, did you mean to say "no work performed" or no money paid out?

Garret Reisman said SpaceX was already starting the next steps beyond CCiCAP including "bending metal" even before the CCtCAP announcement, so I don't think they will stop now.

Offline jabe

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #31 on: 10/01/2014 11:54 PM »
Garret Reisman said SpaceX was already starting the next steps beyond CCiCAP including "bending metal" even before the CCtCAP announcement, so I don't think they will stop now.
this is something I am not clear of what are they building beyond their current dragon V2?  I wish they will release details of the award (unless i missed it) to see what the next process will be.  time will tell
jb

Offline erioladastra

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #32 on: 10/02/2014 12:42 AM »


In short, there will be no work performed under the CCtCap contract until SNC's protest is resolved.
Thanks for this post joek. Just want to be sure, did you mean to say "no work performed" or no money paid out?

No payment from NASA and NASA (CCP and ISS) cannot help either partner towards integration or certification.  Both Boeing and SpaceX are continuing to work towards their tCAP milestones.   SpaceX has money flowing in form NASA since they are behind on their milestones but probably have enough money in house anyway to keep pressing.  But in my opinion it is the interaction with NASA that will put things behind.  We will see in a short bit hopefully fi the courts will let them continue while the GAO occurs. 

Online obi-wan

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #33 on: 10/02/2014 01:20 AM »


In short, there will be no work performed under the CCtCap contract until SNC's protest is resolved.
Thanks for this post joek. Just want to be sure, did you mean to say "no work performed" or no money paid out?

No payment from NASA and NASA (CCP and ISS) cannot help either partner towards integration or certification.  Both Boeing and SpaceX are continuing to work towards their tCAP milestones.   SpaceX has money flowing in form NASA since they are behind on their milestones but probably have enough money in house anyway to keep pressing.  But in my opinion it is the interaction with NASA that will put things behind.  We will see in a short bit hopefully fi the courts will let them continue while the GAO occurs.

I don't think "flowing in" is an accurate depiction - as a milestone-based FFP contract, they get paid when they accomplish an agreed-upon milestone. The other option would be a cost-reimbursable contract where they get paid as they spend money. While a cost-reimbursable contract would be issued a stop-work order (because spending money encumbers the government), Boeing and SpaceX are spending their own money anyway. What the SNC protest does is put them at risk, because if they get dropped due to the protest, they never get paid. Each company can stop work because of the risk inherent in the protest, but any money they spend will get paid back if they make the milestone and aren't dropped from the winning companies.

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #34 on: 10/02/2014 01:37 AM »


In short, there will be no work performed under the CCtCap contract until SNC's protest is resolved.
Thanks for this post joek. Just want to be sure, did you mean to say "no work performed" or no money paid out?

No payment from NASA and NASA (CCP and ISS) cannot help either partner towards integration or certification.  Both Boeing and SpaceX are continuing to work towards their tCAP milestones.   SpaceX has money flowing in form NASA since they are behind on their milestones but probably have enough money in house anyway to keep pressing.  But in my opinion it is the interaction with NASA that will put things behind.  We will see in a short bit hopefully fi the courts will let them continue while the GAO occurs.

I don't think "flowing in" is an accurate depiction - as a milestone-based FFP contract, they get paid when they accomplish an agreed-upon milestone. The other option would be a cost-reimbursable contract where they get paid as they spend money. While a cost-reimbursable contract would be issued a stop-work order (because spending money encumbers the government), Boeing and SpaceX are spending their own money anyway. What the SNC protest does is put them at risk, because if they get dropped due to the protest, they never get paid. Each company can stop work because of the risk inherent in the protest, but any money they spend will get paid back if they make the milestone and aren't dropped from the winning companies.

I think everyone here understands the CCiCap money is paid for milestones and I interpreted "flowing in" to mean they'll keep getting paid for CCiCap milestones as they hit them.

Online su27k

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #35 on: 10/02/2014 03:06 AM »
Looks like source selection document is leaked to an anti-SpaceX reporter in WSJ, I wonder how did that happen.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/why-boeing-beat-spacex-in-nasas-space-taxi-contest-1412207046

Nothing surprising, seems in terms of HSF NASA is still very much in the old ways, unlike COTS. Very little information on SNC, author is too busy gloating for Boeing.

Offline GalacticIntruder

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #36 on: 10/02/2014 03:41 AM »
Looks like source selection document is leaked to an anti-SpaceX reporter in WSJ, I wonder how did that happen.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/why-boeing-beat-spacex-in-nasas-space-taxi-contest-1412207046

Nothing surprising, seems in terms of HSF NASA is still very much in the old ways, unlike COTS. Very little information on SNC, author is too busy gloating for Boeing.

I basically read it as NASA was too worried about SpaceX's innovation,  their secrecy, independence of NASA and not using NASA/space related COTS hardware as the main negative or risks. I don't see NASA opinions a negative on SpaceX.

A badge of honor IMO. It is labeled New Space for a reason.
« Last Edit: 10/02/2014 03:48 AM by GalacticIntruder »
Watch out for those pesky corners, they have teeth.

Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #37 on: 10/02/2014 03:54 AM »
Looks like source selection document is leaked to an anti-SpaceX reporter in WSJ, I wonder how did that happen.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/why-boeing-beat-spacex-in-nasas-space-taxi-contest-1412207046

Nothing surprising, seems in terms of HSF NASA is still very much in the old ways, unlike COTS. Very little information on SNC, author is too busy gloating for Boeing.

I basically read it as NASA was too worried about SpaceX's innovation,  their secrecy, independence of NASA and not using NASA/space related COTS hardware as the main negative or risks. I don't see NASA opinions a negative on SpaceX.

A badge of honor IMO. It is labeled New Space for a reason.

It's a good thing that the Administration fought to have at least two CCtCap companies. DC on Stratolaunch (if it goes ahead) may end up being the cheapest because they won't have to deal with NASA oversight.

Offline Kabloona

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #38 on: 10/02/2014 04:08 AM »
Looks like source selection document is leaked to an anti-SpaceX reporter in WSJ, I wonder how did that happen.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/why-boeing-beat-spacex-in-nasas-space-taxi-contest-1412207046

Nothing surprising, seems in terms of HSF NASA is still very much in the old ways, unlike COTS. Very little information on SNC, author is too busy gloating for Boeing.

And that article was effectively debunked here by Rand Simberg:

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/388477/boeing-isnt-getting-more-nasa-money-because-its-doing-better-job-spacex-rand-simberg

Online QuantumG

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #39 on: 10/02/2014 04:26 AM »
Looks like source selection document is leaked to an anti-SpaceX reporter in WSJ, I wonder how did that happen.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/why-boeing-beat-spacex-in-nasas-space-taxi-contest-1412207046

Nothing surprising, seems in terms of HSF NASA is still very much in the old ways, unlike COTS. Very little information on SNC, author is too busy gloating for Boeing.

And that article was effectively debunked here by Rand Simberg:

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/388477/boeing-isnt-getting-more-nasa-money-because-its-doing-better-job-spacex-rand-simberg

Rand's good, but I don't see how he debunked today's article in the WSJ back on Sep 19. :)

Jeff Bezos has billions to spend on rockets and can go at whatever pace he likes! Wow! What pace is he going at? The slowest possible.

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