Author Topic: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 3  (Read 800456 times)

Offline llanitedave

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 3
« Reply #20 on: 08/23/2014 02:40 AM »
SpaceX expected to break ground soon
Cameron County approves agreements

http://www.valleymorningstar.com/news/local_news/article_14122bbc-29ab-11e4-bfbf-001a4bcf6878.html

A word of caution,  a ground breaking ceremony is not the same as the start of work.  I've seen ceremonies happen 6 months before work really started.  Even seen them indoors with a box of dirt because it was raining.

It doesn't mean much, the most meaningful information available in the public domain is when permits are issued by the city or county.

It can go the other way, too.  "Groundbreaking" for the mine I'm involved in building occured after some major excavations had already begun.
"I've just abducted an alien -- now what?"

Offline jfallen79

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 3
« Reply #21 on: 08/25/2014 03:46 AM »
An interesting article:

http://www.themonitor.com/news/local/spacex-supplier-based-in-michigan-acquires-brownsville-firm/article_1d64cbca-2a73-11e4-a096-0017a43b2370.html

Quote
Paragon hopes to be a “co-traveler” with SpaceX as it evolves in Brownsville, and aims to expand its relationship with the Hawthorne, Calif.-based aerospace company via the Brownsville facility

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 3
« Reply #22 on: 08/25/2014 04:52 AM »
An interesting article:

http://www.themonitor.com/news/local/spacex-supplier-based-in-michigan-acquires-brownsville-firm/article_1d64cbca-2a73-11e4-a096-0017a43b2370.html

Quote
Paragon hopes to be a “co-traveler” with SpaceX as it evolves in Brownsville, and aims to expand its relationship with the Hawthorne, Calif.-based aerospace company via the Brownsville facility

Although they are not focusing exclusively on work from SpaceX.  From the rest of the article:

"Initially, the Brownsville shop will concentrate on meeting the growing demand for quick-turnaround tooling, engineering and repair from automotive and heavy truck manufacturers in Mexico and Texas, Samrick said. Paragon ultimately hopes to service all its industry lines, including oil and gas, from Brownsville, he said."

One of it's industry lines is aerospace, which SpaceX would be part of.  No doubt having a customer near their new facility was an important factor, but likely not the main one.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline MP99

An interesting article:

http://www.themonitor.com/news/local/spacex-supplier-based-in-michigan-acquires-brownsville-firm/article_1d64cbca-2a73-11e4-a096-0017a43b2370.html

Quote
Paragon hopes to be a “co-traveler” with SpaceX as it evolves in Brownsville, and aims to expand its relationship with the Hawthorne, Calif.-based aerospace company via the Brownsville facility
Is this the same Paragon that's developing WorldView balloon systems & Inspiration Mars / Mars One ECLSS?

http://www.paragonsdc.com/index.php?action=viewPost&postID=50

If so, seems strange they wouldn't mention it.

Cheers, Martin

Offline docmordrid

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 3
« Reply #24 on: 08/25/2014 08:49 AM »
Don't think so. This is Paragon Die and Engineering, a Grand Rapids MI  company with an Aerospace division.  AFAICT it's separate from the Paragon Space Development Corporation of Houston.
« Last Edit: 08/25/2014 08:50 AM by docmordrid »
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Offline MP99

Don't think so. This is Paragon Die and Engineering, a Grand Rapids MI  company with an Aerospace division.  AFAICT it's separate from the Paragon Space Development Corporation of Houston.
Helpful, many thanks.

Cheers, Martin

Offline Mariusuiram

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 3
« Reply #26 on: 08/26/2014 02:49 AM »
Don't think so. This is Paragon Die and Engineering, a Grand Rapids MI  company with an Aerospace division.  AFAICT it's separate from the Paragon Space Development Corporation of Houston.

I remember interviews with Elon back in the day talking about their philosophy with parts suppliers. He was pretty dismissive of the existing aerospace sub-contractors and what he considered abusive pricing.

He referenced looking at other industries where similar parts were made but maybe weren't space-qualified and then helping those firms qualify their products which ended up being much cheaper.

Is Paragon an example of that? They seem to be primarily automotive with some Aerospace & defense work, but don't explicitly reference Space systems in there.


Offline Dave G

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 3
« Reply #27 on: 08/27/2014 12:19 AM »
I remember interviews with Elon back in the day talking about their philosophy with parts suppliers. He was pretty dismissive of the existing aerospace sub-contractors and what he considered abusive pricing.

He referenced looking at other industries where similar parts were made but maybe weren't space-qualified and then helping those firms qualify their products which ended up being much cheaper.

That was Max Vozoff, formerly of SpaceX.

Here's the excerpt:

Quote
There's a YouTube video of Elon speaking somewhere in 2003 saying ...  "we're really just a systems integrator, we're buying things from other people", but by the time I showed up in 2005 that had completely turned around and pretty much everything was getting done in-house. 

And you can see why when you see the interactions with these suppliers, particularly the ones in the space industry.  They think they're the only ones who can make this widget or who have the secret sauce, and when you say "no, you're too expensive", they say "well, that's what it is". And they're used to customers who, if they slip the schedule and double the price, the customer shrugs and goes back to headquarters and says, "well, it's gonna take twice as long and it's gonna cost twice as much", and that's how things go in a traditional government run program.

But SpaceX would say "no, that's not acceptable", and they'd cancel the contract.  And sometimes these suppliers were literally scoffing on the phone as you hung up, and call you back a couple of months later saying "so, have you changed your mind yet?"  And being able to say to them that "no, if you can do it, then maybe somebody else can do it too", like either SpaceX figured out how to do it themselves, because they hired some smart people and gave them the resources and tools, or you find another supplier with maybe a non-space version and you upgrade and qualify it for space.

And now what you've done, this backward supplier has bred a competitor for themselves, where they're not used to competition.  I mean, many of the suppliers in this industry would just go out of business in a heartbeat if competition were actually introduced.

So really that's the game changing stuff that SpaceX has been doing: bringing stuff in-house, not just because it gives them control of cost and schedule, but because the space suppliers, traditional suppliers just don't get it.  They're not used to being held to schedules and budgets.

And that's not true of everybody, but there is list of anecdotes I could tell you about suppliers with this attitude.  And in each case either SpaceX brings in in-house and makes it successfully, or they find another supplier and upgrade it, and that supplier is usually thrilled to have a whole new market opened up for them.

http://thespaceshow.wordpress.com/2011/03/05/max-vozoff-friday-3-4-11/

Offline Scylla

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 3
« Reply #28 on: 08/30/2014 06:55 PM »
The New Residents: Renovation planned for house linked to SpaceX
http://www.valleymorningstar.com/news/local_news/article_1a1b2c44-2fef-11e4-aa5d-0017a43b2370.html

Start of SpaceX employee housing?

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Offline kamilfredo

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Offline docmordrid

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 3
« Reply #30 on: 08/30/2014 08:47 PM »
Maybe housing for visiting staff instead of putting them up in fleabag hotels.
« Last Edit: 08/30/2014 08:47 PM by docmordrid »
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Offline Elvis in Space

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 3
« Reply #31 on: 08/30/2014 09:04 PM »
Maybe housing for visiting staff instead of putting them up in fleabag hotels.

Whatever the reason it all starts with a beginning. I guess that's what we're seeing. Notice every house appears to have a water tank(s). I see no sign of well houses.
Cheeseburgers on Mars!

Offline docmordrid

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 3
« Reply #32 on: 08/30/2014 09:09 PM »
Well house? Who uses those these days? Up here in the north we use  submersible pumps and underground pipes.
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Offline Scylla

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 3
« Reply #33 on: 08/30/2014 10:15 PM »
Found this image in Thread 2. Looks like the house being renovated on Weems Rd. is walking distance from Launch Control and Processing.



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Offline Avron

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 3
« Reply #34 on: 08/30/2014 10:35 PM »
The New Residents: Renovation planned for house linked to SpaceX
http://www.valleymorningstar.com/news/local_news/article_1a1b2c44-2fef-11e4-aa5d-0017a43b2370.html

Start of SpaceX employee housing?

Here is that place from the photo...

https://www.google.com/maps/@25.992313,-97.182783,3a,75y,88.89h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sus-PJ_5ttHN5ITte7UEYOw!2e0

If there are renovations. maybe there are plans.. but really I don't think this house will the launch control, so maybe we should just leave it as housing .. and find something more exciting

Offline Dave G

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 3
« Reply #35 on: 08/31/2014 02:22 AM »
Updated composite map to include SpaceX property on Weems Road.

Offline Dave G

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 3
« Reply #36 on: 08/31/2014 11:38 AM »
Found this image in Thread 2. Looks like the house being renovated on Weems Rd. is walking distance from Launch Control and Processing.

This is from the Environmental Impact Statement (EIS), page 2-22, available here

The EIS actually shows multiple locations for control centers, payload processing, etc.  But SpaceX submitted these plans a few years ago, and since then they've been able to acquire significantly more land adjacent to Parcel 1 in the EIS, and Cameron County allowed SpaceX to close and essentially annex portions of Remedios Avenue and Joanna Street (see pictures below).  SpaceX has not purchased the land for Parcels 2 and 3 in the EIS.

So its possible that they will build all of the payload processing, launch vehicle processing, and control center in one location.  The EIS seems to be worded flexibly to allow these types of changes.
« Last Edit: 08/31/2014 12:08 PM by Dave G »

Offline MP99



Found this image in Thread 2. Looks like the house being renovated on Weems Rd. is walking distance from Launch Control and Processing.

This is from the Environmental Impact Statement (EIS), page 2-22, available here

The EIS actually shows multiple locations for control centers, payload processing, etc.  But SpaceX submitted these plans a few years ago, and since then they've been able to acquire significantly more land adjacent to Parcel 1 in the EIS, and Cameron County allowed SpaceX to close and essentially annex portions of Remedios Avenue and Joanna Street (see pictures below).  SpaceX has not purchased the land for Parcels 2 and 3 in the EIS.

So its possible that they will build all of the payload processing, launch vehicle processing, and control center in one location.  The EIS seems to be worded flexibly to allow these types of changes.

The Final EIS (same link), describes it as:-

" The command and control functions for a launch are required to be conducted at a safe separation distance from the actual launch site, which is approximately 2 miles away. As a result, the proposed control center area is approximately 2 miles west from the vertical launch area and north of Boca Chica Boulevard. 

The proposed control center area consists of three parcels north of Boca Chica Boulevard and west of the proposed vertical launch area, which are all privately-owned. Only one of these parcels has existing infrastructure consisting of a concrete pad (a former swimming pool). Boca Chica Village, a small residential subdivision with a transient population, is adjacent to the three parcels that comprise the proposed control center area. The area surrounding the proposed control center area is primarily used for recreational purposes. The 4.0-acre Parcel 1 is located the furthest from the proposed vertical launch area and is bounded on the southeastern side by Boca Chica Boulevard and the southwestern side by Remedios Avenue. 

The 4.4-acre Parcel 2 is bounded on the southeastern side by Boca Chica Boulevard, the southern end is bounded by San Martin Boulevard, and the northwestern side is bounded by Esperson Street. 

The 4.0-acre Parcel 3, which is the closest to the proposed vertical launch area, is located northeast of Eichorn Boulevard. Proposed facility and infrastructure construction at the control center area would include the following:

• Two launch control center buildings
• Two payload processing facilities
• Launch vehicle processing hangar
• Two radio frequency transmitter/receivers
• Generators and diesel storage facilities
• Roads, parking areas, fencing, security, lighting, and utilities
• A satellite fuels storage facility

Construction at this location would generally involve grading to level the land. As a result, additional land areas inside the proposed fence lines could be disturbed at some point. "

Offline Dave G

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 3
« Reply #38 on: 08/31/2014 01:28 PM »
The Final EIS (same link), describes it as: ...

"The 4.0-acre Parcel 1 is located the furthest from the proposed vertical launch area and is bounded on the southeastern side by Boca Chica Boulevard and the southwestern side by Remedios Avenue. 

The 4.4-acre Parcel 2 is bounded on the southeastern side by Boca Chica Boulevard, the southern end is bounded by San Martin Boulevard, and the northwestern side is bounded by Esperson Street. 

The 4.0-acre Parcel 3, which is the closest to the proposed vertical launch area, is located northeast of Eichorn Boulevard. Proposed facility and infrastructure construction at the control center area would include the following: ..."

Parcel 1 has changed since this was written. Parcel 1 has grown from 4 acres to 9.5 acres. 

Parcel 2 and Parcel 3 have not been purchased by SpaceX.

These facts lead me to believe that SpaceX will concentrate things around Parcel 1, at least initially.

Online guckyfan

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 3
« Reply #39 on: 08/31/2014 01:35 PM »
Parcel 2 and 3 are owned by county and state. They can get them when needed.


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