Author Topic: Warp drive requires negative energy  (Read 16563 times)

Online Stormbringer

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Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #40 on: 08/19/2014 10:11 PM »



anyway to prevent this from going adrift back to an earlier point:

can you imagine what it would mean if the anomalous spectrum reading from Perseus and Andromeda turns out to be from matter with nonstandard nucleons or an electron substitute of some type?

the strength of electronic bonds and nuclear bonds in matter are derived in part from the density and mass of the nucleons and the bond lengths of the electrons.  if you had carbon and iron that had smaller nucleons and tighter bonding orbitals then steel made from these exotic atoms would have magnified properties. it would be harder to break the bonds. photons and particles would have a tougher time going through the atoms and empty spaces between atoms. it would have a higher melting point. it would be harder to break, bend, puncture, or cut.

you could have hull materials that could take a beating, shield from radiation better and could reenter the atmosphere unphased or go beyond current limits of crush depth in the ocean or in dense atmospheres like venus.

if there was not a fault in the machine or an error in the signal processing then whatever that was it was not a known element and there is almost no room in the periodic table for unknown normal matter elements. on the face of it it is something other than known forms of matter.

Heh. I'm quoting me! Ain't I special?

anyway check this out:

http://phys.org/news/2014-08-indirect-evidence-so-far-undetected-strange.html

indirect evidence of baryons made of weird quarks. (tm) it goes a little way towards the idea of making matter with odd quark make ups with resultant special properties such as being immune to antimatter annihilation or having superior temperature resistance or physical integrity.
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Online Stormbringer

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Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #41 on: 11/14/2014 11:59 AM »
for certain spatial models negative energy may not be necessary according to this wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp-field_experiments

in the first paragraph towards the bottom:

Quote
The theoretical framework for the experiments dates back to work by Harold G. White from 2003 as well as work by White and Eric W. Davis from 2006 that was published in the AIP, where they also consider how baryonic matter could, at least mathematically, adopt characteristics of dark energy (see section below). In the process, they described how a toroidal positive energy density may result in a spherical negative-pressure region, possibly eliminating the need for actual exotic matter.[2][4]

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Online Stormbringer

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Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #42 on: 11/19/2014 11:20 AM »
new article suggest darkmatter is rather like monopole matter in that it its fundamental particle make up are units smaller than protons and neutrons. kind of like a continuous atom made of nothing but quarks locked together in a solid.

http://www.livescience.com/48740-dark-matter-large-chunks-macros.html

Quote
Dark matter may not be made of tiny particles as most scientists believe, but instead may consist of large chunks of strange matter anywhere from the size of an apple to an asteroid, researchers said.

anyway; i think this article adds to the plausibility of the notion of  the existence of unusual forms of matter that I hope may solve some engineering issues with advanced power systems as well as other engineering problems.
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Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #43 on: 11/19/2014 01:00 PM »
I have no idea if there is such a thing as "negative energy".  However, such a concept cannot be created at all, even with a well produced video complete with wooshing sounds, eery music, a narrator with a well modulated voice, and an artificially dirty actor pretending to dig a hole from pre-loosened soil.

Perhaps the Original Poster has noticed that a duel of credentials is not the analytical tool required to settle the facts behind the faith based scientific creation myth hinted at in the first 1:01 of the video.
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Online Stormbringer

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Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #44 on: 11/19/2014 01:15 PM »
Dunno what that was all about...

But I have pointed out that the proper set up may eliminate the need for negative mass or energy and in addition to that i have recently read that  exotic matter, mass or whatever is more of a topological condition in modeling that actual material "stuff."

The upshot is you may dismiss any sort of magical space lint bunnies and still be able to satisfy the warp equations requirement for exotic mass or energy.
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Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #45 on: 11/19/2014 01:21 PM »
Dunno what that was all about...

Executive summary:  No such thing as warp drive.  Probably not ever.
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Offline R7

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Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #46 on: 11/19/2014 01:31 PM »
I have no idea if there is such a thing as "negative energy".  However, such a concept cannot be created at all, even with a well produced video complete with wooshing sounds, eery music, a narrator with a well modulated voice, and an artificially dirty actor pretending to dig a hole from pre-loosened soil.

I envy you, that yoga must work really well. I've felt negative energy while trying to dig a trench in muddy field to drain a puddle suffocating crops. Hammering finger instead of nail creates sudden strong negative energy. There's a lot of negative energy in internet forums too!

But curious, at least for me it takes energy to dig a hole in a field. Would energy required to dig a hole big enough to fit an universe be positive, negative, neutral or is it some sort of self-digging hole?
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Offline kch

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Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #47 on: 11/19/2014 01:38 PM »

But curious, at least for me it takes energy to dig a hole in a field. Would energy required to dig a hole big enough to fit an universe be positive, negative, neutral or is it some sort of self-digging hole?

It's hole-istic energy ... ;)

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #48 on: 11/19/2014 01:56 PM »
I have no idea if there is such a thing as "negative energy"...

I envy you, that yoga must work really well. I've felt negative energy while trying to dig a trench in muddy field to drain a puddle suffocating crops. Hammering finger instead of nail creates sudden strong negative energy. There's a lot of negative energy in internet forums too!

But curious, at least for me it takes energy to dig a hole in a field. Would energy required to dig a hole big enough to fit an universe be positive, negative, neutral or is it some sort of self-digging hole?

Yoga is restraining the thought-streams natural to the mind.  Laphroaig will perform the same function with different side effects.  Even so, I feel your pain, particularly having dug many a trench, and with more digging in my future.  Plus, I've gotta fix the tiller and the snowblower soon, and resolve an emotional void resulting from the beloved's absense.  The sources of that kind of negative energy require much concentration and effort to negate, but that negative energy will never tip a torsion balance.

Seriously?  This thread's quality is low.

But hey:  What do I know?  I'm just a  koi farmer...  who recycles old jokes on new threads.
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Offline RonM

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Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #49 on: 11/19/2014 02:52 PM »
Who knows if negative energy or negative mass really exists, but the equations in modern physics allows negative energy and negative mass. People used to scoff at black holes, but they are now considered to be real. Until we refine modern theory to the point we can drop the negative results, we need to keep an open mind.

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Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #50 on: 11/19/2014 03:04 PM »
this is rather old but it is an article at Icarus in which Dr White participates in the comment section. someone other than Dr White had the following to say:

http://www.icarusinterstellar.org/daydreaming-beyond-the-solar-system-with-warp-field-mechanics/

Quote
If you read this paper:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2010arXiv1005.5682M

You’ll see that “exotic matter” is actually “negative space-time pressure.”The Cassimir Effect, which Dr White is focusing on, goes like this:

1) Make a metal donut.

2) Run a ridiculous amount of electricity into it.

3) Space-time should expand at the center of the donut, or, if you blast enough electricity, around the donut.

This space-time expansion (also called an increase in York Time) IS exotic matter. In other words, physicists have a weird name for the expansion of space-time.

The question is how much energy will it actually require to achieve this expansion. The current experiments focus on determining whether the Cassimir Effect even works as we’ve theorized, and then how much energy delivers how much expansion.

he refers to this paper:  http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2010arXiv1005.5682M

i know his belief that cassimir effect is one such example of so called exotic matter is probably overtaken by subsequent scientific research. but what about the core idea:

You’ll see that “exotic matter” is actually “negative space-time pressure.”

If this is more than his own handwavium then the need for some sort of weird matter or energy may be illusory.



« Last Edit: 11/19/2014 03:16 PM by Stormbringer »
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Offline Quantum Gravity

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Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #51 on: 06/16/2017 12:06 AM »

Please don't hate or call me stupid im just wondering is it how that works, if anyone knows answers or any explanation for me thanks  :)   
 
 
 
Warp drive requires negative energy ?
 
No problemo!
 
” Until now, negative matter has not been found to exist in natural form. However, since E=mc˛, negative matter may be created in a laboratory using negative energies. Previous studies showed that effective negative inertia exists for neutrons and also for electrons in short transient time intervals. We present two possibilities to create stationary, charged negative effective masses that could be used to test self-propulsion effect. It is based on the assumption that Weber’s electrodynamics is correct predicting a negative mass regime for electrons inside a highly charged dielectric sphere. The other possibility is using asymmetric charge distributions that could be realized using electrets. With proper geometry and charge densities, negative mass regimes are derived, which could lead to negative energies many orders of magnitude larger than those obtained from the Casimir effect. Based on these concepts, a negative matter could be realized in a laboratory environment.”

Propellantless Propulsion with Negative Matter Generated by Electric Charges
 


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Offline dustinthewind

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Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #52 on: 06/16/2017 12:47 AM »
this is rather old but it is an article at Icarus in which Dr White participates in the comment section. someone other than Dr White had the following to say:

http://www.icarusinterstellar.org/daydreaming-beyond-the-solar-system-with-warp-field-mechanics/

Quote
If you read this paper:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2010arXiv1005.5682M

You’ll see that “exotic matter” is actually “negative space-time pressure.”The Cassimir Effect, which Dr White is focusing on, goes like this:

1) Make a metal donut.

2) Run a ridiculous amount of electricity into it.

3) Space-time should expand at the center of the donut, or, if you blast enough electricity, around the donut.

This space-time expansion (also called an increase in York Time) IS exotic matter. In other words, physicists have a weird name for the expansion of space-time.

The question is how much energy will it actually require to achieve this expansion. The current experiments focus on determining whether the Cassimir Effect even works as we’ve theorized, and then how much energy delivers how much expansion.

he refers to this paper:  http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2010arXiv1005.5682M

i know his belief that cassimir effect is one such example of so called exotic matter is probably overtaken by subsequent scientific research. but what about the core idea:

You’ll see that “exotic matter” is actually “negative space-time pressure.”

If this is more than his own handwavium then the need for some sort of weird matter or energy may be illusory.

Propellant-less Propulsion:

Negative effective mass = Negative energy is negative work.  You want to separate these so that negative work is in front of the apparatus and positive work is done behind the apparatus.  Similar to how positive energy should attract but negative energy should repel. 

Line them up and it starts drifting froward.  How to you avoid the infinite energy conundrum from constant acceleration?  You have to do work so entropy increases. 

What would you be pushing against if not the light itself?  It might transfer energy to the vacuum efficiently and make gravity waves.  Yes the vacuum can flow.  (Lense-Thirring effect) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lense%E2%80%93Thirring_precession

We already have a working example of propellant-less propulsion.  A phased array is a form of propellant-less propulsion.  Problem is in a phased array we have 2 forces working against each other.  Static electric vs magnetic.
 There is a way to rectify this and I think it would give larger than photon propulsion but the way things are going I question if I will ever have the chance to build it.  https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36911.msg1459290#msg1459290

-rant- But hey, I suppose capitalism is all that and a bag of chips they say.  Mean while I know for a fact car companies could be making cars capable of hundreds of miles/gallon, but they work and go vroom vroom.  Good enough eh?  Frog in the pot comes to mind.  -song- it's a small world after all. /song -/rant-
« Last Edit: 06/16/2017 12:54 AM by dustinthewind »

Offline dustinthewind

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Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #53 on: 06/16/2017 12:56 AM »
for certain spatial models negative energy may not be necessary according to this wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp-field_experiments

in the first paragraph towards the bottom:

Quote
The theoretical framework for the experiments dates back to work by Harold G. White from 2003 as well as work by White and Eric W. Davis from 2006 that was published in the AIP, where they also consider how baryonic matter could, at least mathematically, adopt characteristics of dark energy (see section below). In the process, they described how a toroidal positive energy density may result in a spherical negative-pressure region, possibly eliminating the need for actual exotic matter.[2][4]

I find that torroid interesting.  I was toying with an idea that used a toroid.  https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39464.msg1484673#msg1484673

I wonder if it uses a flow of space in the center of the torroid.  The Idea I was toying with would not give a thrust to the ring itself.  Rather any object in the center would begin to drift with the local space.  You then connect the ship with the torroid, a stress exist from the ship accelerating the ring via the bridged connection.  Not sure it could ever work, but was an interesting twist of thought.
« Last Edit: 06/16/2017 01:09 AM by dustinthewind »

Online Stormbringer

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Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #54 on: 06/16/2017 01:01 PM »
Propellant-less Propulsion:

Negative effective mass = Negative energy is negative work.  You want to separate these so that negative work is in front of the apparatus and positive work is done behind the apparatus.  Similar to how positive energy should attract but negative energy should repel. 

Line them up and it starts drifting froward.  How to you avoid the infinite energy conundrum from constant acceleration?  You have to do work so entropy increases. 

What would you be pushing against if not the light itself?  It might transfer energy to the vacuum efficiently and make gravity waves.  Yes the vacuum can flow.  (Lense-Thirring effect) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lense%E2%80%93Thirring_precession

We already have a working example of propellant-less propulsion.  A phased array is a form of propellant-less propulsion.  Problem is in a phased array we have 2 forces working against each other.  Static electric vs magnetic.
 There is a way to rectify this and I think it would give larger than photon propulsion but the way things are going I question if I will ever have the chance to build it.  https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36911.msg1459290#msg1459290

-rant- But hey, I suppose capitalism is all that and a bag of chips they say.  Mean while I know for a fact car companies could be making cars capable of hundreds of miles/gallon, but they work and go vroom vroom.  Good enough eh?  Frog in the pot comes to mind.  -song- it's a small world after all. /song -/rant-
This sounds like a diametric or disjunction drive. ideas explored under the old NASA breakthrough propulsion program.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_Propulsion_Physics_Program

 interestingly one was recently made in a laser ring model. well about a decade ago? nope later than that...

https://phys.org/news/2013-10-optical-diametric.html



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Offline dustinthewind

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Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #55 on: 06/16/2017 06:13 PM »
Propellant-less Propulsion:

Negative effective mass = Negative energy is negative work.  You want to separate these so that negative work is in front of the apparatus and positive work is done behind the apparatus.  Similar to how positive energy should attract but negative energy should repel. 

Line them up and it starts drifting froward.  How to you avoid the infinite energy conundrum from constant acceleration?  You have to do work so entropy increases. 

What would you be pushing against if not the light itself?  It might transfer energy to the vacuum efficiently and make gravity waves.  Yes the vacuum can flow.  (Lense-Thirring effect) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lense%E2%80%93Thirring_precession

We already have a working example of propellant-less propulsion.  A phased array is a form of propellant-less propulsion.  Problem is in a phased array we have 2 forces working against each other.  Static electric vs magnetic.
 There is a way to rectify this and I think it would give larger than photon propulsion but the way things are going I question if I will ever have the chance to build it.  https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36911.msg1459290#msg1459290

-rant- But hey, I suppose capitalism is all that and a bag of chips they say.  Mean while I know for a fact car companies could be making cars capable of hundreds of miles/gallon, but they work and go vroom vroom.  Good enough eh?  Frog in the pot comes to mind.  -song- it's a small world after all. /song -/rant-
This sounds like a diametric or disjunction drive. ideas explored under the old NASA breakthrough propulsion program.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_Propulsion_Physics_Program

 interestingly one was recently made in a laser ring model. well about a decade ago? nope later than that...

https://phys.org/news/2013-10-optical-diametric.html

There are some parallels to it and a diametric drive but not using physical negative energy matter which can't be had. 

The phys.org article seems an amateur​ attempt at such an engine really but I think it just shows the concept exists.  I've read that article before.  If I remember correctly it didn't even seem they wanted to use it for propulsion. 

Their 2 coils interact together very weakly.  I would have the entire coil interacting the the other entire coil.  I have a few tricks to use that would allow to possibly amplify the forces several orders of magnitude and allow use of low rf frequencies so as not to burn out coils.  There is a patent I posted about some time ago that comes close to what I am thinking bit I would intend to take it a bit further than even in the patent to amplify the effect. 

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