### Author Topic: Warp drive requires negative energy  (Read 16640 times)

#### reefli

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##### Warp drive requires negative energy
« on: 07/27/2014 03:37 PM »
I just watched a video
and in it it said that if there is for example 50 positive energy there has to be 50 negative energy.
So where do they all come from?
This is what i came up with
Positive <- ? -> Negative
1                     =           1
20                   =           20

So is there natural energy?
in the attachment there is a picture of two rods of whetever you would like to call them, they are flat against eachother with nothing in the middle and they are in a air isolated room, what would happen if they got pulled appart somehow? would energy be generated in the middle of them or what? thats where i like to think as negative and positive energy is being created and the natural energy was there anyway.

Please don't hate or call me stupid im just wondering is it how that works, if anyone knows answers or any explanation for me thanks

#### reefli

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #1 on: 07/27/2014 03:43 PM »
i just had a quick thought through my mind, are black holes negative energy or positive? if they are negative then thats must be where all sucked in material must go to be produced back to natural energy.

#### RonM

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #2 on: 07/27/2014 04:02 PM »
You are over thinking the example. The total of positive energy (the hill) and the total of negative energy (the hole) must equal zero.

Look up virtual particles and Hawking Radiation. Virtual particles are pairs of matter and antimatter particles that appear out of the vacuum. They immediately collide and annihilate each other. Just like the idea behind positive and negative energy, they cancel each other out and the net result is zero. Hawking radiation is where virtual particles appear next to the event horizon of a black hole. One escapes and one falls in. Now the particle that escapes is no longer virtual and the mass of the black hole is reduced. Eventually, black holes evaporate away. Adding a particle to the Universe and reducing the mass of the black hole still adds up to zero change.

It's an amazing amount of activity and still it all adds up to zero.

#### reefli

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #3 on: 07/27/2014 04:05 PM »
so if it adds up to zero its "natural energy" ? and how can it evaporate away if like you said one escapes and one falls in, it cannot evaporate.
« Last Edit: 07/27/2014 04:19 PM by reefli »

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #4 on: 07/27/2014 06:25 PM »
so if it adds up to zero its "natural energy" ? and how can it evaporate away if like you said one escapes and one falls in, it cannot evaporate.
It's assumed that, to preserve conservation of mass/energy, the particle that falls into the black hole is negative energy, so reduces the mass of the hole. I was never that clear why the negative half of the virtual pair was more likely to fall in while the positive half went the other way. Hawking radiation would actually increase as the hole got smaller because the gravitational gradient would get steeper.

#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #5 on: 07/27/2014 09:45 PM »
oh this is easy! really! you see in QED the naked rest mass of all matter is negative so you just need to avoid renormalization by separating or delaying the renormalization term

Dr Woodward explains that here:

but besides that how about these ideas i posted elsewhere?
Quote
at any rate there are at least 5 ways to approach the negative mass energy thing that i have seen put forward in publication.

1. Casimir forces set up a condition of relative negative energy density between two closely spaced barriers. there is debate on whether a relative negative density behaves in all particulars as if it were negative energy for purposes of negative deformations of space.

2. squeezed light waveforms have a tiny component that is negative energy. working out how to grab that portion and amplify it and move it around seems to a laymen to be analogous to regular amplifier techniques. but i am not familiar with that enough to say that that is the case. physicists imply that this would be difficult but they are not engineers.

3. the region near black hole event horizons is chock full of negative energy. if so this should actually be relatively easy to access. remember the hooplah over the collider potentially making a mini black hole? such an event would not be dangerous (cosmic rays collide by the trillions at higher energy so any blackholes created vanish before they can feed and stabilize) and in fact might allow access to negative energy albeit with significant engineering issues.

4. like item three only involving quantum wormholes and not needing a collider.

5. Cosmic back reaction in macroscopic wormholes: throwing stuff into a wormhole magically generates it's opposite on the other end. positive energy input is negative energy output. as it happens this is more useful than harmful for wormhole tech. it can be used to hold a wormhole open, produce exotic energy and control the distal end of a wormhole. This greatly amuses me and annoys skeptics of wormhole travel.

In addition to the above which i have seen in theoretical discussion and articles about where to get the exotic matter/energy these are possibilities i have thought of myself using my Ko0K science powers as authorization:

6. recently there were articles about thermodynamically acceptable temperatures below zero degrees kelvin. you'd think that was absurd. it sound wackier than any kook science claim i have ever heard. but it's real. it seems to me that this would be negative energy.

7. dark matter. well it's possible however unlikely that some dark matter is exotic matter of the requisite properties.

8. Mirror sector matter. what are it's properties? are mirror photons negative in the sense we need for warps? if mirror matter exist as has been seriously proposed by many credentialed scientists then why can't other sectors of the universe exist which have the right properties? the cool thing with this is regular matter is easily converted to mirror matter under certain circumstances. it's like throwing a switch.

9. Time reversed particles or tachyonic particles would behave as negative energy (I think and hope.)

AND FINALLY: I believe Dr White has said in some of his presentations that he thinks he can eliminate the exotic matter requirements entirely by jiggering AC field waveforms in the ring the right way.

also part of the puzzle are being worked at slowly. here is something that might lead to better access to Casimir, Van Der Wahls and Plank scaled stuff:

http://phys.org/news/2014-07-boosting-space.html

my thoughts from another site:

Quote
this is a tie in because :

1. it shows that quantum flux can be amplified.
2. it shows the area of action can be enlarged.
3. technique could be applied to tech that develops casimir scale force technology
4. it is possible that similar techniques could do for casimir derived negative energy and thus;
5. it could be of use for warp drive and wormhole science and later technology.

My opinion on it is stuff like this that will build the foundation for ZPE, warp and wormhole breakthroughs in the future.

BTW there is a NASA paper pending on specra from Perseus Cluster and Andromeda that do not match known elemental spectral signatures. it is thought if there was not some sort of problem with the observations that this must represent some type of unknown matter:

Quote
I do not know the bone fides of the website i sourced because i do not have time to go through the whole thing.i do know that there is a NASA paper on this discovery and other astronomers have detected this anomalous spectrum line in andromeda. I will link to the article and also to the NASA paper preprint abstract.

background information. the specral line emissions of every type of matter in the periodic table are known and commonly used to tell the make up of stuff on earth and all the way to the end of the universe. for a line to appear in a gap between these known signatures means either there was an observational error or glitch in the machines or something not of the known elements has been observed.

that means taken at face value this is some sort of exotic matter. possibly dark matter or even something made up of particles with nucleons made out of different quarks than normal protons and neutrons or made of monopoles or negative matter or something exciting like that.

nasa paper preprint at: http://arxiv.org/abs/1402.2301

« Last Edit: 07/27/2014 10:09 PM by Stormbringer »
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#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #6 on: 07/27/2014 10:17 PM »
i just had a quick thought through my mind, are black holes negative energy or positive? if they are negative then thats must be where all sucked in material must go to be produced back to natural energy.

in addition to the hawking radiation mechanism there is also negative energy  and mass that accumulate very near the event horizon as per an article by Dr Michio Kaku i read sometime back unless he was talking about the same thing.

plus if you had a wormhole you could make your own negative energy via a mechanism proposed to prevent mucking about with macroscopic wormholes. it's called Cosmic Back Reaction and though it does  limit wormhole utility in some ways in others it makes wormholes easier to make, maintain and use.
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#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #7 on: 07/27/2014 10:22 PM »

It's assumed that, to preserve conservation of mass/energy, the particle that falls into the black hole is negative energy, so reduces the mass of the hole. I was never that clear why the negative half of the virtual pair was more likely to fall in while the positive half went the other way. Hawking radiation would actually increase as the hole got smaller because the gravitational gradient would get steeper.

it would probably be random unless there is something else i am not considering. the inertia of a negative mass reacts the same way that the inertia of a regular mass behaves according to Dr Woodward from the video i posted. He says a lot of people who should know better get that wrong.
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#### IslandPlaya

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #8 on: 07/27/2014 10:31 PM »

It's assumed that, to preserve conservation of mass/energy, the particle that falls into the black hole is negative energy, so reduces the mass of the hole. I was never that clear why the negative half of the virtual pair was more likely to fall in while the positive half went the other way. Hawking radiation would actually increase as the hole got smaller because the gravitational gradient would get steeper.

it would probably be random unless there is something else i am not considering. the inertia of a negative mass reacts the same way that the inertia of a regular mass behaves according to Dr Woodward from the video i posted. He says a lot of people who should know better get that wrong.
I'm not sure that can be correct. If it were random then the hole would not evaporate (lose mass) over time as Hawking suggests.
I think the idea is that the pair of particles are virtual. They are in a superposition where they have both +ve and -ve mass. When one ventures over the event horizon, they are both promoted to real particles. Since observable particles can only have +ve mass the superposition collapses accordingly, with the one with -ve mass always being the one inside the event horizon.

#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #9 on: 07/27/2014 10:36 PM »

It's assumed that, to preserve conservation of mass/energy, the particle that falls into the black hole is negative energy, so reduces the mass of the hole. I was never that clear why the negative half of the virtual pair was more likely to fall in while the positive half went the other way. Hawking radiation would actually increase as the hole got smaller because the gravitational gradient would get steeper.

it would probably be random unless there is something else i am not considering. the inertia of a negative mass reacts the same way that the inertia of a regular mass behaves according to Dr Woodward from the video i posted. He says a lot of people who should know better get that wrong.
I'm not sure that can be correct. If it were random then the hole would not evaporate (lose mass) over time as Hawking suggests.
I think the idea is that the pair of particles are virtual. They are in a superposition where they have both +ve and -ve mass. When one ventures over the event horizon, they are both promoted to real particles. Since observable particles can only have +ve mass the superposition collapses accordingly, with the one with -ve mass always being the one inside the event horizon.

it could very well be wrong. Dr Woodward did say the inertia was the same but it was I that extrapolated that to randomizing the distribution at the event horizon; though i was using Dr Kaku's statement as my guide on that. I was still "using the jedi force" to come up with the conclusion. I am not in the fields in question and approach it with more optimism than may be warranted.
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#### QuantumG

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #10 on: 07/27/2014 10:37 PM »
I thought you were claiming antimatter has -ve mass? Antimatter is observable.

However, if there was some quirk of black holes that causes the emission of regular particles to be preferred over antimatter particles, that would explain black hole evaporation (it's just matter/antimatter annihilation in the core) and it would go towards explaining the abundance of matter over antimatter in the observable universe.

That'd be neat. Clearly the way to test it is with domesticated black holes.

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#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #11 on: 07/27/2014 10:45 PM »
in a article about how  to escape the universe Dr Michio kaku  in the section on negative energy or mass said this:

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/escapefromtheuniverse

Quote
Even black holes have negative energy surrounding them, near their event horizons. In principle, this may yield vast quantities of negative energy. However, the technical problems of extracting negative energy so close to a black hole are extremely tricky.

this seems to me that he meant outside the event horizon since stuff inside the event horizon is unreachable except according to one article i read which discussed a method of eliminating the event horizon with specificaly applied waveforms of directed energy.

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#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #12 on: 07/28/2014 01:47 AM »

That'd be neat. Clearly the way to test it is with domesticated black holes.

i wonder which would be easier to domesticate: Cosmic ray initiated blackholes or one made in a collider? there would be more of them in the cosmic ray variety. more chances? but the ones in a collider would be easier to time and would appear at basically a known fixed position each time.

there might just be a way to grab on to one. that article on lengthening the quantum flux field area i posted above might be adaptable to acting as a plank length tweezer.
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#### momerathe

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #13 on: 07/28/2014 04:20 PM »
Threads like this make me die a little inside.

(all emphasis in quotes mine)

1. Casimir forces set up a condition of relative negative energy density between two closely spaced barriers. there is debate on whether a relative negative density behaves in all particulars as if it were negative energy for purposes of negative deformations of space.

Indeed.

You also have the problem of the parallel plates themselves, which will contribute rather more to the local mass-energy of space than the region between will subtract from it.

Quote
2. squeezed light waveforms have a tiny component that is negative energy. working out how to grab that portion and amplify it and move it around seems to a laymen to be analogous to regular amplifier techniques. but i am not familiar with that enough to say that that is the case. physicists imply that this would be difficult but they are not engineers.

What does this even mean?

In any event, these "components" are not separable, any more than you can pick up the crest of a water wave and take it somewhere else.

Quote
3. the region near black hole event horizons is chock full of negative energy. if so this should actually be relatively easy to access. remember the hooplah over the collider potentially making a mini black hole? such an event would not be dangerous (cosmic rays collide by the trillions at higher energy so any blackholes created vanish before they can feed and stabilize) and in fact might allow access to negative energy albeit with significant engineering issues.

[citation needed]

it's true that when considering Hawking radiation it appears that the infalling particle had negative energy. The problem here is that it's inside the event horizon, and causally disconnected from the rest of the universe.

There's another point I'd like to make here: between this and your previous bullet, you seem to be thinking of energy as "stuff". Energy is not stuff; you cannot pick it up, move it, amplify it, or anything else. Energy is a property of stuff (by which I mean fields and particles).

Quote
4. like item three only involving quantum wormholes and not needing a collider.

5. Cosmic back reaction in macroscopic wormholes: throwing stuff into a wormhole magically generates it's opposite on the other end. positive energy input is negative energy output. as it happens this is more useful than harmful for wormhole tech. it can be used to hold a wormhole open, produce exotic energy and control the distal end of a wormhole. This greatly amuses me and annoys skeptics of wormhole travel.

[citation needed]

I did a search for this, and all I found was an old article from Analog magazine.

Quote
6. recently there were articles about thermodynamically acceptable temperatures below zero degrees kelvin. you'd think that was absurd. it sound wackier than any kook science claim i have ever heard. but it's real. it seems to me that this would be negative energy.

This is absolutely wrong. Negative temperatures are caused by population inversions, and they are very (positively) energetic indeed.

I'm also worried by your use of the word "Seem". This is not really a topic you can intuit about without knowing anything about the specifics.

Quote
7. dark matter. well it's possible however unlikely that some dark matter is exotic matter of the requisite properties.

No it isn't. dark matter definitionally has positive mass. that's kind of the point.

Quote
8. Mirror sector matter. what are it's properties?

The same as regular matter, except interacting via bosons of different parity. just because it has "mirror" in the name, doesn't mean you get to make up whatever you feel like.

Quote
9. Time reversed particles or tachyonic particles would behave as negative energy (I think and hope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyon_condensation

thermodynamics will get you in the end

#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #14 on: 07/28/2014 06:47 PM »
Threads like this make me die a little inside.

Quote

What does this even mean?

In any event, these "components" are not separable, any more than you can pick up the crest of a water wave and take it somewhere else.

in power circuits generators etc; you can pick up individual components of an electrical wave form or multiple waveforms and lead the bits away to do separate but real bits of work. for example in polyphase circuits you can tap just one phase. i believe also that you could time the pick up to occur only during the negative portion of the wave form if you had suitable circuitry to work with negative energy or mass. it seems to me the problem would be akin to electrical engineering.

Quote
[citation needed]

citation of negative particles or energy outside the event horizon of a black hole (parts are implicit or self evident; but ) from michio Kaku's article on how to escape the universe. the article was picked up and reprinted in several magazines but here is where i found it:

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/escapefromtheuniverse

EXCERPT:
Quote
Even black holes have negative energy surrounding them, near their event horizons. In principle, this may yield vast quantities of negative energy. However, the technical problems of extracting negative energy so close to a black hole are extremely tricky.

Quote
There's another point I'd like to make here: between this and your previous bullet, you seem to be thinking of energy as "stuff". Energy is not stuff; you cannot pick it up, move it, amplify it, or anything else. Energy is a property of stuff (by which I mean fields and particles).

of course i know that energy is a property of particles. when summarizing as opposed perhaps to publishing peer reviewed papers (as if that is something i do)  i don't see a need to go to the trouble of adding extra and superflous information of the details. i ramble enough as it is. If at some point I turn my garage into a mad Scientist's den to build my star cruiser I might take the trouble to make up impressive looking equations of Greek squiggles for everyone's amusement. for now i am discussing in general English and seeking information from other such as yourself. Which i immensely enjoy even when being scolded.

Quote
[citation needed]

I did a search for this, and all I found was an old article from Analog magazine.
not surprising. my source is Dr John Cramer; professor emeritus of physics at Washington University, etc. Who also wrote columns for Analog magazine. however i cite from his talk here:

Quote
This is absolutely wrong. Negative temperatures are caused by population inversions, and they are very (positively) energetic indeed.
fine. I know the mathematics allows for sub absolute zero temperatures but that the mathematical signs are then reversed from normal thermodynamical expression.
at absolute zero there should be no movement or passage of time hence it was logical to assign negative energy in that sense to that odd result because if it starts wiggling on the other side of zero thats just positive energy then how can you say it's beyond Zero?.  positive movement is positive temperature. though i am looking not only for negative energy but acceptable proxies for it. recall the idea about the casimir plates.

Quote
No it isn't. dark matter definitionally has positive mass. that's kind of the point.
i think i heard someone say there are at least twenty flavors of dark matter in contention. therefore i think if we are positing unicorns i can pick any darned unicorn i like. in other words if all these unknown types of matter are permissible why not others. and there is support for this in the form of the specra from perseus and andromeda. who heard of mirror matter? why is it that it comes up in the general consciousness and then scientist say oh yeah we knew this was possible all along? how many other types of exotic matter are out there in dusty tomes that will be acknowledged only when it jumps up into popular knowledge for a while? why is it people don't know general relativity predicts coupling of gravity with magnetism but when Dr Tajmar gets some result there are dozens of articles that mention "oh we knew gravity and magnetism were coupled all along; it is GR don'cha know?" that's kind aggravating.

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The same as regular matter, except interacting via bosons of different parity. just because it has "mirror" in the name, doesn't mean you get to make up whatever you feel like.

except it isn't the same. it interacts with normal matter only via gravity and weak photon mixing (collisions.) there are mirror magnetic fields. there are mirror photons. none of which we can even see.
This is in the literature of  the art. we do not know the properties of the mirror sector. we assume it's Constants and so forth are the same as the normal sector. what if it isn't? what if those dark photons have a different speed limit or distances are compressed or any of a myriad of other "what ifs?"

and there are other sectors allowable in the math if I recall correctly. what of those?

the detection of anomalous (In the strongest sense possible) spectral lines in Perseus and Andromeda intrigues me. like you said dark matter is supposed to be dark as in you cannot see it. so this is something else because you can see it. If it is not some observational error then it has to be a new form of matter. something that does not fit into our periodic table. maybe nucleons with weird quark make up. perhaps atoms with nucleons entirely different from protons and neutrons. (yeah, I know spectral emissions come from dancing electrons. ) maybe an electron substitute. whatever it is it's weird. and weird is good when authentic.
« Last Edit: 07/28/2014 07:53 PM by Stormbringer »
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#### momerathe

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #15 on: 07/29/2014 04:07 PM »

In any event, these "components" are not separable, any more than you can pick up the crest of a water wave and take it somewhere else.

in power circuits generators etc; you can pick up individual components of an electrical wave form or multiple waveforms and lead the bits away to do separate but real bits of work. for example in polyphase circuits you can tap just one phase. i believe also that you could time the pick up to occur only during the negative portion of the wave form if you had suitable circuitry to work with negative energy or mass. it seems to me the problem would be akin to electrical engineering.

these are two completely different concepts. The negative energy density of squeezed light is an ensemble phenomenon, similar to an interference pattern. While you could indeed separate out the photons in frequency domain (or phase, etc.) you can't take the dark fringes and leave the light ones behind.

Quote
citation of negative particles or energy outside the event horizon of a black hole (parts are implicit or self evident; but ) from michio Kaku's article on how to escape the universe. the article was picked up and reprinted in several magazines but here is where i found it:

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/escapefromtheuniverse

EXCERPT:
Quote
Even black holes have negative energy surrounding them, near their event horizons. In principle, this may yield vast quantities of negative energy. However, the technical problems of extracting negative energy so close to a black hole are extremely tricky.

Ugh. I wouldn't trust Michio Kaku to tie my shoelaces. He's rather too fond of throwing away factual accuracy to make a trite phrase.

Quote
Quote
There's another point I'd like to make here: between this and your previous bullet, you seem to be thinking of energy as "stuff". Energy is not stuff; you cannot pick it up, move it, amplify it, or anything else. Energy is a property of stuff (by which I mean fields and particles).

of course i know that energy is a property of particles. when summarizing as opposed perhaps to publishing peer reviewed papers (as if that is something i do)  i don't see a need to go to the trouble of adding extra and superflous information of the details.

It's really not superfluous at all - it's key to understanding energy as a physical concept.

Take black holes. Yes, the particles in Hawking radiation that fall into the event horizon have negative energy - but they're just ordinary particles nonetheless. Their negative energy is a property of the situation you find them in. If you could magically fish them from the bring of destruction and store them, you would find that they are just regular particles with positive mass.

In fact, I'm surprised you haven't listed the most obvious and uncontroversial example of negative energy - nuclear binding energy*. We're surrounded, and indeed composed of, negative energy, but you can't isolate it because it's a property of the system of nucleons, and without the (considerably more massive) nucleons - no negative energy.

You see why I make the connection? To make statements about taking negative energy from X, without reference to the particles and fields that give rise to it, is meaningless.

(* tl;dr version: a deuteron weighs less than a free proton + a free neutron, because the binding energy between them is negative.)

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at absolute zero there should be no movement or passage of time hence it was logical to assign negative energy in that sense to that odd result because if it starts wiggling on the other side of zero thats just positive energy then how can you say it's beyond Zero?.  positive movement is positive temperature.

temperature is not what you think it is.
there's a good explanation here: http://bit.ly/1bkvt2c (video)

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therefore i think if we are positing unicorns i can pick any darned unicorn i like.

Yeah, you can, but then it just becomes noise. You can daydream about exotic matter particles all you want, but the conversation is moot unless there's reason to believe that they exist.

thermodynamics will get you in the end

#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #16 on: 07/29/2014 05:40 PM »

Ugh. I wouldn't trust Michio Kaku to tie my shoelaces. He's rather too fond of throwing away factual accuracy to make a trite phrase.

In a duel of credentials who would win; you or Dr Kaku?

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In fact, I'm surprised you haven't listed the most obvious and uncontroversial example of negative energy - nuclear binding energy*. We're surrounded, and indeed composed of, negative energy, but you can't isolate it because it's a property of the system of nucleons, and without the (considerably more massive) nucleons - no negative energy.

i was being too flippant at the beginning of my first post in this thread. But i also mentioned that in QED theory the bare mass of all matter is negative.

i did not touch on the strong force because then i would go into something that would probably go into territory the mods would be uncomfortable with and shut it down. but briefly Zvi Bern and other Sakurai prize winning physicists have published papers that peg the graviton (it's feynman diagram and it's mathematical representation) as being a doubled version of the feynman diagram of the gluon.

thats not "woo woo" territory yet. but the next step puts it into what you would consider "woo woo" land so i won't go there.

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You see why I make the connection? To make statements about taking negative energy from X, without reference to the particles and fields that give rise to it, is meaningless.

I will be more careful in the future then. but i would ask you to look at Dr Woodward's own explanation of his form of the Mach's principle equation.  I linked it earlier in the thread. he allows a glance at the math for those who would be interested but because of his audience he passes over three pages of algebra to explain the terms in the final equation. he does so in English terms and the math is thus comprehensible to a layman.

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(* tl;dr version: a deuteron weighs less than a free proton + a free neutron, because the binding energy between them is negative.)

this is outstanding. thank you for putting that in a simple form.

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therefore i think if we are positing unicorns i can pick any darned unicorn i like.

Quote
Yeah, you can, but then it just becomes noise. You can daydream about exotic matter particles all you want, but the conversation is moot unless there's reason to believe that they exist.

ok. i was being too flippant again. In part; the point i was trying to make is that the nature of dark matter is largely unknown. i cited 20 candidates for species of dark matter. it turns out there were actually 60.
Dark matter as it stands is a placeholder term for an unknown species or species (plural) of matter necessary to explain observations. there is actually a chart of the dark matter candidates and how they intersect with each other.

right now they are all unicorns. if i want to say tachyons are not a mathematical artifact i would be on equally solid a ground as the dark matter theorists for some of the dark matter candidates. if i want to posit that a domain analogous to the mirror sector is also real and not a mathematical artifact then i am on even ground with some of the dark matter candidates.

Kook science or fringers or whatever have said gravity and magnetism are related. turns out that so did Einstein in GR. yet they are kooks. established science was kinda snickering about it until something happened in their precincts which made them comment. then it was "well we knew it all along; It's GR didn't you know that?" about 20 years ago or so fringers said gravity and the strong force were related. decades later prize winning scientists publish that this is likely so at least as far as the diagrams and math are concerned.

It's all unicorns. all of it. that does not mean that there isn't dark matter. but it may be one or more of them but it cannot be all of them. therefore there is a lot of establishment science support for their own flavor of unicorn.
« Last Edit: 07/29/2014 05:43 PM by Stormbringer »
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#### IslandPlaya

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #17 on: 07/29/2014 06:09 PM »
@Stormbringer

Despite the smiley...
It is a basic mistake to appeal to Authority when you try to compare 'credentials' between Kaku and momerathe in support of your argument. And who knows what credentials momerathe has?

From what I know, I would back momerathe in a shoelace tying contest.

Please refrain from being too flippant in future. I cannot explain what I feel to be correct physics as well as momerathe, so I too will try to improve going forward.

#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #18 on: 07/29/2014 06:36 PM »
@Stormbringer

Despite the smiley...
It is a basic mistake to appeal to Authority when you try to compare 'credentials' between Kaku and momerathe in support of your argument. And who knows what credentials momerathe has?

From what I know, I would back momerathe in a shoelace tying contest.

Please refrain from being too flippant in future. I cannot explain what I feel to be correct physics as well as momerathe, so I too will try to improve going forward.

whatever one's opinion of Dr Kaku is; you can bet he did not make that up. you can bet he had primary sources.

and since we are speaking of logical fallacies let me add my own submission for one:  How about trying to discredit information by "attacking" sources? otherwise known as a subtype of argumentum ad hominem.

I did not think the poster's remark was belligerent or i would not have posted the smiley. so i was gently poking him or her for slipping into that. no offense was intended.

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#### IslandPlaya

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #19 on: 07/29/2014 06:47 PM »
Neither yours, momeranthe's or my own comments were belligerent. No worries there.
Is trying to discredit an argumentum ab auctoritate source an ad hom? Maybe. Strike that then. You are just left with your original argumentum ab auctoritate.

#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #20 on: 07/29/2014 06:58 PM »
Neither yours, momeranthe's or my own comments were belligerent. No worries there.
Is trying to discredit an argumentum ab auctoritate source an ad hom? Maybe. Strike that then. You are just left with your original argumentum ab auctoritate.

When one (me) is not an authority then the only recourse one has in arguing is to cite authoritative sources. as it happens i cited kaku but kaku is not the primary source for the information concerned.  i am certain he said that because he read it or heard it from primary sources qualified to say that; not that he himself isn't qualified.

anyway to prevent this from going adrift back to an earlier point:

can you imagine what it would mean if the anomalous spectrum reading from Perseus and Andromeda turns out to be from matter with nonstandard nucleons or an electron substitute of some type?

the strength of electronic bonds and nuclear bonds in matter are derived in part from the density and mass of the nucleons and the bond lengths of the electrons.  if you had carbon and iron that had smaller nucleons and tighter bonding orbitals then steel made from these exotic atoms would have magnified properties. it would be harder to break the bonds. photons and particles would have a tougher time going through the atoms and empty spaces between atoms. it would have a higher melting point. it would be harder to break, bend, puncture, or cut.

you could have hull materials that could take a beating, shield from radiation better and could reenter the atmosphere unphased or go beyond current limits of crush depth in the ocean or in dense atmospheres like venus.

if there was not a fault in the machine or an error in the signal processing then whatever that was it was not a known element and there is almost no room in the periodic table for unknown normal matter elements. on the face of it it is something other than known forms of matter.
« Last Edit: 07/29/2014 07:01 PM by Stormbringer »
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#### IslandPlaya

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #21 on: 07/29/2014 07:08 PM »
Neither yours, momeranthe's or my own comments were belligerent. No worries there.
Is trying to discredit an argumentum ab auctoritate source an ad hom? Maybe. Strike that then. You are just left with your original argumentum ab auctoritate.

When one (me) is not an authority then the only recourse one has in arguing is to cite authoritative sources. as it happens i cited kaku but kaku is not the primary source for the information concerned.  i am certain he said that because he read it or heard it from primary sources qualified to say that; not that he himself isn't qualified.

anyway to prevent this from going adrift back to an earlier point:

can you imagine what it would mean if the anomalous spectrum reading from Perseus and Andromeda turns out to be from matter with nonstandard nucleons or an electron substitute of some type?

the strength of electronic bonds and nuclear bonds in matter are derived in part from the density and mass of the nucleons and the bond lengths of the electrons.  if you had carbon and iron that had smaller nucleons and tighter bonding orbitals then steel made from these exotic atoms would have magnified properties. it would be harder to break the bonds. photons and particles would have a tougher time going through the atoms and empty spaces between atoms. it would have a higher melting point. it would be harder to break, bend, puncture, or cut.

you could have hull materials that could take a beating, shield from radiation better and could reenter the atmosphere unphased or go beyond current limits of crush depth in the ocean or in dense atmospheres like venus.

if there was not a fault in the machine or an error in the signal processing then whatever that was it was not a known element and there is almost no room in the periodic table for unknown normal matter elements. on the face of it it is something other than known forms of matter.
Whoa big guy!
The anomalous spectrum reading from Perseus and Andromeda is easily explained by excitations.

#### RanulfC

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #22 on: 07/29/2014 07:17 PM »
In a duel of credentials who would win; you or Dr Kaku?
whatever one's opinion of Dr Kaku is; you can bet he did not make that up. you can bet he had primary sources.

As an "aside" but slightly significant note on "appeals to authority" in arguments and discussions and specifically directed at Dr. Kaku; "assuming" he has a "primary source" assumes a huge amount about his argument and how he sources materials in the first place. Dr. Kaku is a "Theoretical Physicist" and as such has a great deal of knowledge of theory and advanced versions thereof. He however is also human and tends to take certain "beliefs" as fact even when presented with evidence contrary to his beliefs. An example would be his stance on and beliefs in the various "dangers" of nuclear power. He often plays his being a "Physicist" as basis for his arguments against Nuclear Power but deliberitly leaves aside the "Theoretical" part so as not to "confuse" people. He actually does this because it quickly becomes obvious that he is in fact a Theoretical Physicist and has almost no experiance working with or in the Nuclear Power field and makes very basic and fundamental mistakes in understanding how nuclear power works beyond knowing the theory behind it. He delibritly attempts to appeal to his own "authority" as being a "Physicist" to appear more knowledgeable than mere "engineers" who actually work in the industry.

The entire cited article is very much of the "if/could" variety where Dr. Kaku makes a great many assumptions to support his suppositons. A major one is the ability to access and make useful work from "negative" energy which is still very much only theory. The article seems a bit dated due to the explination of the "cassmir" effect being evidence of negative energy, (in fact this is evidence of quantum flucuation, the "zero-point" energy effect and is NOT considered "negative" energy) and "anti-mass" negative matter which is today accepted to NOT have negative mass.

I suspect that looking for more updated articles by Dr. Kaku will yeild a different "rationalization" if he even still believes the assumptions made in the ariticle itself.

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #23 on: 07/29/2014 07:19 PM »

Whoa big guy!
The anomalous spectrum reading from Perseus and Andromeda is easily explained by excitations.

i could very well be wrong. but it was my understanding that the line appears in a place other than lines occupied by normal matter no matter the degree of ionization which is what i think of when you say excitation. so in the event my understanding is faulty can you elaborate?

i would think that a more likely nullifying explanation would be a loose wire or broken bracket or faulty signal processing algorithms.

the argument against is i think that the Perseus and Andromeda observations were made by different teams with different instruments at physically separate observatories.

i really do crave any news that supports exotic forms of matter but i know there are probably other explanations and am willing to listen to reason.
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#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #24 on: 07/29/2014 07:29 PM »

I suspect that looking for more updated articles by Dr. Kaku will yeild a different "rationalization" if he even still believes the assumptions made in the ariticle itself.

Randy

Sorry for the sever clipping of your points about Kaku. it was for brevity. not because they are without merit.

let me say that his political and ideological editorializing annoy me when i run across them. however; that does not mean that i cannot enjoy his books interviews and so forth popularizing science and especially speculative futuristic stuff. i don't want to go on about it because it and people's feelings about him are a side issue.

and i'd rather discuss the topics here than get them closed down over trivial issues. the lifespan of these sorts of threads are short enough as it is.
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#### IslandPlaya

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #25 on: 07/29/2014 07:33 PM »

Whoa big guy!
The anomalous spectrum reading from Perseus and Andromeda is easily explained by excitations.

i could very well be wrong. but it was my understanding that the line appears in a place other than lines occupied by normal matter no matter the degree of ionization which is what i think of when you say excitation. so in the event my understanding is faulty can you elaborate?

i would think that a more likely nullifying explanation would be a loose wire or broken bracket or faulty signal processing algorithms.

the argument against is i think that the Perseus and Andromeda observations were made by different teams with different instruments at physically separate observatories.

i really do crave any news that supports exotic forms of matter but i know there are probably other explanations and am willing to listen to reason.
http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/events/2014/sackler/index/talks/Harvard2014_Weiner.pdf
Just go to the end of the doc. The rest of the doc is fine, handwaving stuff...

#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #26 on: 07/29/2014 07:48 PM »

http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/events/2014/sackler/index/talks/Harvard2014_Weiner.pdf
Just go to the end of the doc. The rest of the doc is fine, handwaving stuff...

that's interesting. they allow that it could be dark matter but think the more probable explanation is excitations.
it's not conclusive but occams razor would imply that explanation is likely.

well it seems if i want weird matter i have to stick with mirror matter or this until something else pops up

which is fun romp through monopole lore even though it is a science fiction site:

http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/48630634d2591

it is fiction but based in peer reviewed papers on the topic of monopoles and atoms made of monopoles.
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#### IslandPlaya

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #27 on: 07/29/2014 07:59 PM »

http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/events/2014/sackler/index/talks/Harvard2014_Weiner.pdf
Just go to the end of the doc. The rest of the doc is fine, handwaving stuff...

that's interesting. they allow that it could be dark matter but think the more probable explanation is excitations.
it's not conclusive but occams razor would imply that explanation is likely.

well it seems if i want weird matter i have to stick with mirror matter or this until something else pops up

which is fun romp through monopole lore even though it is a science fiction site:

http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/48630634d2591

it is fiction but based in peer reviewed papers on the topic of monopoles and atoms made of monopoles.
I have dreams that the Woodward/Mach effect is true and usable. Also I dream that we will have a compact fusion source of power. Together that would be awesome!
I'm an optimist.
But lets not get into kookdom and suchlike... Y'know?

#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #28 on: 07/29/2014 08:06 PM »

I have dreams that the Woodward/Mach effect is true and usable. Also I dream that we will have a compact fusion source of power. Together that would be awesome!
I'm an optimist.
But lets not get into kookdom and suchlike... Y'know?

I don't think Dr Woodward or Dr white or others in a similar class are kooks. there are kooks out there of course but these are not in that class even if they turn out to be wrong. i think both are open to falsification of their pet theories. kooks are not open to their null hypothesis if they even have one.

besides even if they are kooks sometimes a dip into kook land is fun.
« Last Edit: 07/29/2014 08:07 PM by Stormbringer »
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#### IslandPlaya

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #29 on: 07/29/2014 08:54 PM »
I never called Dr Woodward or anyone for that matter kooks!

#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #30 on: 07/29/2014 08:59 PM »
I never called Dr Woodward or anyone for that matter kooks!
I did not think you had.
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#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #31 on: 07/29/2014 11:46 PM »
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#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #32 on: 08/05/2014 06:08 AM »
say! i have a new question but it's sort of related to stuff i mentioned in this thread about Woodward's take on negative mass... i mean maybe it's related. that's the question.

Woodward mentioned in his video that in QED theory the naked mass of all matter is actually negative (at least in the math) before being renormalized. He further said that it might be possible to separate the renormalization terms and hence possibly the physics such that the negative mass is revealed. which in turn would possibly lead you to easily accessible negative mass or energy needed to do science fictiony stuff.

so anyway I saw this:

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Scientists_separate_a_particle_from_its_properties_999.html

and my question is even though the properties separated here are not the renormalization factors he theorized about; does this illuminate in any way the potential to do what he said about separating the QED renormalization or adding a delay line to it or something like that?

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#### Nilof

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #33 on: 08/05/2014 06:19 PM »
say! i have a new question but it's sort of related to stuff i mentioned in this thread about Woodward's take on negative mass... i mean maybe it's related. that's the question.

Woodward mentioned in his video that in QED theory the naked mass of all matter is actually negative (at least in the math) before being renormalized. He further said that it might be possible to separate the renormalization terms and hence possibly the physics such that the negative mass is revealed. which in turn would possibly lead you to easily accessible negative mass or energy needed to do science fictiony stuff.

so anyway I saw this:

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Scientists_separate_a_particle_from_its_properties_999.html

and my question is even though the properties separated here are not the renormalization factors he theorized about; does this illuminate in any way the potential to do what he said about separating the QED renormalization or adding a delay line to it or something like that?

The method linked isn't powerful enough to probe the internal structure of a particle. It is only applicable to large-scale(or equivalently, low energy) quantities. The negative-infinite electron mass is set to cancel an ultraviolet divergence for the single loop term for the electron self energy(the Feynman diagram with an electron and one photon line coming out of the electron and then back into it), so it is inherently a small-scale phenomenon.
For a variable Isp spacecraft running at constant power and constant acceleration, the mass ratio is linear in delta-v.   Δv = ve0(MR-1). Or equivalently: Δv = vef PMF. Also, this is energy-optimal for a fixed delta-v and mass ratio.

#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #34 on: 08/15/2014 09:35 AM »
random silly insomnia driven way to early in the morning question:

Dr White said in his 2013 conference presentation that he thinks he can increase the permitivity of space by collapsing and expanding the negative energy zone around the ring on his theoretical space ship. the permitivity of space... It's kind of like a fundamental constant isn't it?

what other things like this are theoretically possible? can you alter van der wahl's force such that matter becomes intangible or invisible or something freaky like that? what else is theoretically possible in that vein but not widely known or talked about? i never had the slightest clue that altering something like permitivity of space is even possible not even as a theoretical exercise. and believe me if it has to do with FTL, warps, wormholes or stuff like that i am usually all over it.

EDIT:  i just thought of something. if the permitivity of space can be altered and space and time are inextricably related does that mean you can mess with the "permitivity of time" as well?
« Last Edit: 08/15/2014 09:40 AM by Stormbringer »
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#### ChrisWilson68

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #35 on: 08/15/2014 09:48 AM »
random silly insomnia driven way to early in the morning question:

Dr White said in his 2013 conference presentation that he thinks he can increase the permitivity of space by collapsing and expanding the negative energy zone around the ring on his theoretical space ship. the permitivity of space... It's kind of like a fundamental constant isn't it?

what other things like this are theoretically possible? can you alter van der wahl's force such that matter becomes intangible or invisible or something freaky like that? what else is theoretically possible in that vein but not widely known or talked about? i never had the slightest clue that altering something like permitivity of space is even possible not even as a theoretical exercise. and believe me if it has to do with FTL, warps, wormholes or stuff like that i am usually all over it.

EDIT:  i just thought of something. if the permitivity of space can be altered and space and time are inextricably related does that mean you can mess with the "permitivity of time" as well?

There's no reason to believe that this is possible.  It's only "theoretically possible" in the sense that anything at all is theoretically possible if we discover that there are new laws of physics we don't know about.  Everything Sonny White talks about requires new laws of physics, and he has never shown any good evidence any of those new laws of physics exist.

So, changing permitivity is no more or less crazy than anything else White proposes.  If you buy into the other wackiness he's selling, you might as well buy into this too.

#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #36 on: 08/15/2014 10:01 AM »
That seems kind of harsh. Dr white did go through the academic acreditisation process and get both a doctorate and a masters degree and is a physicist and an engineer. He did get hired and retained by NASA. i don't think he did any of that by having delusions or being unreliable or ill suited to his fields and so forth.
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#### ChrisWilson68

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #37 on: 08/15/2014 10:39 AM »
That seems kind of harsh. Dr white did go through the academic acreditisation process and get both a doctorate and a masters degree and is a physicist and an engineer. He did get hired and retained by NASA. i don't think he did any of that by having delusions or being unreliable or ill suited to his fields and so forth.

The beauty of science is that we can judge ideas by the ideas themselves and by the experimental evidence for them.  We can judge people by their track records of claims.  We don't have to give ideas credence just because the letters PhD are tacked up next to the name of the person who espouses them.

#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #38 on: 08/16/2014 09:11 AM »

There's no reason to believe that this is possible.  It's only "theoretically possible" in the sense that anything at all is theoretically possible if we discover that there are new laws of physics we don't know about.  Everything Sonny White talks about requires new laws of physics, and he has never shown any good evidence any of those new laws of physics exist.

So, changing permitivity is no more or less crazy than anything else White proposes.  If you buy into the other wackiness he's selling, you might as well buy into this too.

it's been long enough since i watched the presentation that i cannot remember the details but i think that maybe he had the theoretical underpinnings of his claim either on the display or by way of preliminary remarks that lead in to that statement. this is not the sort of thing you say to an audience of professionals, peers and critics (other physicists and engineers) if you are just pulling it out of your most distal orifice.

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#### MP99

##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #39 on: 08/16/2014 10:01 AM »

However, if there was some quirk of black holes that causes the emission of regular particles to be preferred over antimatter particles, that would explain black hole evaporation (it's just matter/antimatter annihilation in the core) and it would go towards explaining the abundance of matter over antimatter in the observable universe.

That'd be neat. Clearly the way to test it is with domesticated black holes.

I believe that this is a misunderstanding of how black holes evaporate.

In normal space, virtual particle pairs are produced due to Heisenberg Uncertainty, but then destroyed very quickly when the universe "realises" and "wants to be paid back".

Near a black hole, one of the virtual particles may disappear inside the event horizon before it gets a chance to recombine and "pay back" the borrowed energy. If the other particle has escape velocity, then the black hole's mass is reduced to "pay back" the borrowed energy, and the other particle becomes a real particle.

Note that it's 50:50 whether the escaping particle is matter or antimatter. A matter particle leaves a net increase of one in the number of particles in the universe. An antimatter particle leaves a temporary increase of one in the number of antiparticles, but will eventually annihilate a particle, leaving the long-term balance as +0 antiparticles, - 1 particles.

The +1 & - 1 of the particles net out to zero, and the energy lost by the black hole ends up in the energy of the gamma ray pair produced when the antimatter annihilates (plus kinetic energy of the particle).

Note, also, that escape energy is incredibly high from the vicinity of the event horizon of a large black hole, and this is why large holes evaporate so slowly. Only a tiny proportion of the "orphaned" particles will have enough energy to escape, with the rest being recaptured for no net energy loss.

As the black hole shrinks, escape velocity gets lower, and a larger proportion can escape to become "real", which explains why the rate of particle emission (the BH's temperature) increases as it shrinks.

Cheers, Martin

#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #40 on: 08/19/2014 10:11 PM »

anyway to prevent this from going adrift back to an earlier point:

can you imagine what it would mean if the anomalous spectrum reading from Perseus and Andromeda turns out to be from matter with nonstandard nucleons or an electron substitute of some type?

the strength of electronic bonds and nuclear bonds in matter are derived in part from the density and mass of the nucleons and the bond lengths of the electrons.  if you had carbon and iron that had smaller nucleons and tighter bonding orbitals then steel made from these exotic atoms would have magnified properties. it would be harder to break the bonds. photons and particles would have a tougher time going through the atoms and empty spaces between atoms. it would have a higher melting point. it would be harder to break, bend, puncture, or cut.

you could have hull materials that could take a beating, shield from radiation better and could reenter the atmosphere unphased or go beyond current limits of crush depth in the ocean or in dense atmospheres like venus.

if there was not a fault in the machine or an error in the signal processing then whatever that was it was not a known element and there is almost no room in the periodic table for unknown normal matter elements. on the face of it it is something other than known forms of matter.

Heh. I'm quoting me! Ain't I special?

anyway check this out:

http://phys.org/news/2014-08-indirect-evidence-so-far-undetected-strange.html

indirect evidence of baryons made of weird quarks. (tm) it goes a little way towards the idea of making matter with odd quark make ups with resultant special properties such as being immune to antimatter annihilation or having superior temperature resistance or physical integrity.
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#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #41 on: 11/14/2014 11:59 AM »
for certain spatial models negative energy may not be necessary according to this wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp-field_experiments

in the first paragraph towards the bottom:

Quote
The theoretical framework for the experiments dates back to work by Harold G. White from 2003 as well as work by White and Eric W. Davis from 2006 that was published in the AIP, where they also consider how baryonic matter could, at least mathematically, adopt characteristics of dark energy (see section below). In the process, they described how a toroidal positive energy density may result in a spherical negative-pressure region, possibly eliminating the need for actual exotic matter.[2][4]

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#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #42 on: 11/19/2014 11:20 AM »
new article suggest darkmatter is rather like monopole matter in that it its fundamental particle make up are units smaller than protons and neutrons. kind of like a continuous atom made of nothing but quarks locked together in a solid.

http://www.livescience.com/48740-dark-matter-large-chunks-macros.html

Quote
Dark matter may not be made of tiny particles as most scientists believe, but instead may consist of large chunks of strange matter anywhere from the size of an apple to an asteroid, researchers said.

anyway; i think this article adds to the plausibility of the notion of  the existence of unusual forms of matter that I hope may solve some engineering issues with advanced power systems as well as other engineering problems.
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#### JohnFornaro

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #43 on: 11/19/2014 01:00 PM »
I have no idea if there is such a thing as "negative energy".  However, such a concept cannot be created at all, even with a well produced video complete with wooshing sounds, eery music, a narrator with a well modulated voice, and an artificially dirty actor pretending to dig a hole from pre-loosened soil.

Perhaps the Original Poster has noticed that a duel of credentials is not the analytical tool required to settle the facts behind the faith based scientific creation myth hinted at in the first 1:01 of the video.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #44 on: 11/19/2014 01:15 PM »
Dunno what that was all about...

But I have pointed out that the proper set up may eliminate the need for negative mass or energy and in addition to that i have recently read that  exotic matter, mass or whatever is more of a topological condition in modeling that actual material "stuff."

The upshot is you may dismiss any sort of magical space lint bunnies and still be able to satisfy the warp equations requirement for exotic mass or energy.
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#### JohnFornaro

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #45 on: 11/19/2014 01:21 PM »
Dunno what that was all about...

Executive summary:  No such thing as warp drive.  Probably not ever.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

#### R7

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #46 on: 11/19/2014 01:31 PM »
I have no idea if there is such a thing as "negative energy".  However, such a concept cannot be created at all, even with a well produced video complete with wooshing sounds, eery music, a narrator with a well modulated voice, and an artificially dirty actor pretending to dig a hole from pre-loosened soil.

I envy you, that yoga must work really well. I've felt negative energy while trying to dig a trench in muddy field to drain a puddle suffocating crops. Hammering finger instead of nail creates sudden strong negative energy. There's a lot of negative energy in internet forums too!

But curious, at least for me it takes energy to dig a hole in a field. Would energy required to dig a hole big enough to fit an universe be positive, negative, neutral or is it some sort of self-digging hole?

#### kch

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #47 on: 11/19/2014 01:38 PM »

But curious, at least for me it takes energy to dig a hole in a field. Would energy required to dig a hole big enough to fit an universe be positive, negative, neutral or is it some sort of self-digging hole?

It's hole-istic energy ...

#### JohnFornaro

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #48 on: 11/19/2014 01:56 PM »
I have no idea if there is such a thing as "negative energy"...

I envy you, that yoga must work really well. I've felt negative energy while trying to dig a trench in muddy field to drain a puddle suffocating crops. Hammering finger instead of nail creates sudden strong negative energy. There's a lot of negative energy in internet forums too!

But curious, at least for me it takes energy to dig a hole in a field. Would energy required to dig a hole big enough to fit an universe be positive, negative, neutral or is it some sort of self-digging hole?

Yoga is restraining the thought-streams natural to the mind.  Laphroaig will perform the same function with different side effects.  Even so, I feel your pain, particularly having dug many a trench, and with more digging in my future.  Plus, I've gotta fix the tiller and the snowblower soon, and resolve an emotional void resulting from the beloved's absense.  The sources of that kind of negative energy require much concentration and effort to negate, but that negative energy will never tip a torsion balance.

Seriously?  This thread's quality is low.

But hey:  What do I know?  I'm just a  koi farmer...  who recycles old jokes on new threads.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

#### RonM

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #49 on: 11/19/2014 02:52 PM »
Who knows if negative energy or negative mass really exists, but the equations in modern physics allows negative energy and negative mass. People used to scoff at black holes, but they are now considered to be real. Until we refine modern theory to the point we can drop the negative results, we need to keep an open mind.

#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #50 on: 11/19/2014 03:04 PM »
this is rather old but it is an article at Icarus in which Dr White participates in the comment section. someone other than Dr White had the following to say:

http://www.icarusinterstellar.org/daydreaming-beyond-the-solar-system-with-warp-field-mechanics/

Quote

You’ll see that “exotic matter” is actually “negative space-time pressure.”The Cassimir Effect, which Dr White is focusing on, goes like this:

1) Make a metal donut.

2) Run a ridiculous amount of electricity into it.

3) Space-time should expand at the center of the donut, or, if you blast enough electricity, around the donut.

This space-time expansion (also called an increase in York Time) IS exotic matter. In other words, physicists have a weird name for the expansion of space-time.

The question is how much energy will it actually require to achieve this expansion. The current experiments focus on determining whether the Cassimir Effect even works as we’ve theorized, and then how much energy delivers how much expansion.

he refers to this paper:  http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2010arXiv1005.5682M

i know his belief that cassimir effect is one such example of so called exotic matter is probably overtaken by subsequent scientific research. but what about the core idea:

You’ll see that “exotic matter” is actually “negative space-time pressure.”

If this is more than his own handwavium then the need for some sort of weird matter or energy may be illusory.

« Last Edit: 11/19/2014 03:16 PM by Stormbringer »
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#### Quantum Gravity

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #51 on: 06/16/2017 12:06 AM »

Please don't hate or call me stupid im just wondering is it how that works, if anyone knows answers or any explanation for me thanks

Warp drive requires negative energy ?

No problemo!

” Until now, negative matter has not been found to exist in natural form. However, since E=mc˛, negative matter may be created in a laboratory using negative energies. Previous studies showed that effective negative inertia exists for neutrons and also for electrons in short transient time intervals. We present two possibilities to create stationary, charged negative effective masses that could be used to test self-propulsion effect. It is based on the assumption that Weber’s electrodynamics is correct predicting a negative mass regime for electrons inside a highly charged dielectric sphere. The other possibility is using asymmetric charge distributions that could be realized using electrets. With proper geometry and charge densities, negative mass regimes are derived, which could lead to negative energies many orders of magnitude larger than those obtained from the Casimir effect. Based on these concepts, a negative matter could be realized in a laboratory environment.”

Propellantless Propulsion with Negative Matter Generated by Electric Charges

EXPERIMENTAL Quantum Antigravity — https://quantumantigravity.wordpress.com/

#### dustinthewind

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #52 on: 06/16/2017 12:47 AM »
this is rather old but it is an article at Icarus in which Dr White participates in the comment section. someone other than Dr White had the following to say:

http://www.icarusinterstellar.org/daydreaming-beyond-the-solar-system-with-warp-field-mechanics/

Quote

You’ll see that “exotic matter” is actually “negative space-time pressure.”The Cassimir Effect, which Dr White is focusing on, goes like this:

1) Make a metal donut.

2) Run a ridiculous amount of electricity into it.

3) Space-time should expand at the center of the donut, or, if you blast enough electricity, around the donut.

This space-time expansion (also called an increase in York Time) IS exotic matter. In other words, physicists have a weird name for the expansion of space-time.

The question is how much energy will it actually require to achieve this expansion. The current experiments focus on determining whether the Cassimir Effect even works as we’ve theorized, and then how much energy delivers how much expansion.

he refers to this paper:  http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2010arXiv1005.5682M

i know his belief that cassimir effect is one such example of so called exotic matter is probably overtaken by subsequent scientific research. but what about the core idea:

You’ll see that “exotic matter” is actually “negative space-time pressure.”

If this is more than his own handwavium then the need for some sort of weird matter or energy may be illusory.

Propellant-less Propulsion:

Negative effective mass = Negative energy is negative work.  You want to separate these so that negative work is in front of the apparatus and positive work is done behind the apparatus.  Similar to how positive energy should attract but negative energy should repel.

Line them up and it starts drifting froward.  How to you avoid the infinite energy conundrum from constant acceleration?  You have to do work so entropy increases.

What would you be pushing against if not the light itself?  It might transfer energy to the vacuum efficiently and make gravity waves.  Yes the vacuum can flow.  (Lense-Thirring effect) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lense%E2%80%93Thirring_precession

We already have a working example of propellant-less propulsion.  A phased array is a form of propellant-less propulsion.  Problem is in a phased array we have 2 forces working against each other.  Static electric vs magnetic.
There is a way to rectify this and I think it would give larger than photon propulsion but the way things are going I question if I will ever have the chance to build it.  https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36911.msg1459290#msg1459290

-rant- But hey, I suppose capitalism is all that and a bag of chips they say.  Mean while I know for a fact car companies could be making cars capable of hundreds of miles/gallon, but they work and go vroom vroom.  Good enough eh?  Frog in the pot comes to mind.  -song- it's a small world after all. /song -/rant-
« Last Edit: 06/16/2017 12:54 AM by dustinthewind »

#### dustinthewind

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #53 on: 06/16/2017 12:56 AM »
for certain spatial models negative energy may not be necessary according to this wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp-field_experiments

in the first paragraph towards the bottom:

Quote
The theoretical framework for the experiments dates back to work by Harold G. White from 2003 as well as work by White and Eric W. Davis from 2006 that was published in the AIP, where they also consider how baryonic matter could, at least mathematically, adopt characteristics of dark energy (see section below). In the process, they described how a toroidal positive energy density may result in a spherical negative-pressure region, possibly eliminating the need for actual exotic matter.[2][4]

I find that torroid interesting.  I was toying with an idea that used a toroid.  https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39464.msg1484673#msg1484673

I wonder if it uses a flow of space in the center of the torroid.  The Idea I was toying with would not give a thrust to the ring itself.  Rather any object in the center would begin to drift with the local space.  You then connect the ship with the torroid, a stress exist from the ship accelerating the ring via the bridged connection.  Not sure it could ever work, but was an interesting twist of thought.
« Last Edit: 06/16/2017 01:09 AM by dustinthewind »

#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #54 on: 06/16/2017 01:01 PM »
Propellant-less Propulsion:

Negative effective mass = Negative energy is negative work.  You want to separate these so that negative work is in front of the apparatus and positive work is done behind the apparatus.  Similar to how positive energy should attract but negative energy should repel.

Line them up and it starts drifting froward.  How to you avoid the infinite energy conundrum from constant acceleration?  You have to do work so entropy increases.

What would you be pushing against if not the light itself?  It might transfer energy to the vacuum efficiently and make gravity waves.  Yes the vacuum can flow.  (Lense-Thirring effect) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lense%E2%80%93Thirring_precession

We already have a working example of propellant-less propulsion.  A phased array is a form of propellant-less propulsion.  Problem is in a phased array we have 2 forces working against each other.  Static electric vs magnetic.
There is a way to rectify this and I think it would give larger than photon propulsion but the way things are going I question if I will ever have the chance to build it.  https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36911.msg1459290#msg1459290

-rant- But hey, I suppose capitalism is all that and a bag of chips they say.  Mean while I know for a fact car companies could be making cars capable of hundreds of miles/gallon, but they work and go vroom vroom.  Good enough eh?  Frog in the pot comes to mind.  -song- it's a small world after all. /song -/rant-
This sounds like a diametric or disjunction drive. ideas explored under the old NASA breakthrough propulsion program.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_Propulsion_Physics_Program

interestingly one was recently made in a laser ring model. well about a decade ago? nope later than that...

https://phys.org/news/2013-10-optical-diametric.html

When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

#### dustinthewind

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #55 on: 06/16/2017 06:13 PM »
Propellant-less Propulsion:

Negative effective mass = Negative energy is negative work.  You want to separate these so that negative work is in front of the apparatus and positive work is done behind the apparatus.  Similar to how positive energy should attract but negative energy should repel.

Line them up and it starts drifting froward.  How to you avoid the infinite energy conundrum from constant acceleration?  You have to do work so entropy increases.

What would you be pushing against if not the light itself?  It might transfer energy to the vacuum efficiently and make gravity waves.  Yes the vacuum can flow.  (Lense-Thirring effect) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lense%E2%80%93Thirring_precession

We already have a working example of propellant-less propulsion.  A phased array is a form of propellant-less propulsion.  Problem is in a phased array we have 2 forces working against each other.  Static electric vs magnetic.
There is a way to rectify this and I think it would give larger than photon propulsion but the way things are going I question if I will ever have the chance to build it.  https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36911.msg1459290#msg1459290

-rant- But hey, I suppose capitalism is all that and a bag of chips they say.  Mean while I know for a fact car companies could be making cars capable of hundreds of miles/gallon, but they work and go vroom vroom.  Good enough eh?  Frog in the pot comes to mind.  -song- it's a small world after all. /song -/rant-
This sounds like a diametric or disjunction drive. ideas explored under the old NASA breakthrough propulsion program.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_Propulsion_Physics_Program

interestingly one was recently made in a laser ring model. well about a decade ago? nope later than that...

https://phys.org/news/2013-10-optical-diametric.html

There are some parallels to it and a diametric drive but not using physical negative energy matter which can't be had.

The phys.org article seems an amateur​ attempt at such an engine really but I think it just shows the concept exists.  I've read that article before.  If I remember correctly it didn't even seem they wanted to use it for propulsion.

Their 2 coils interact together very weakly.  I would have the entire coil interacting the the other entire coil.  I have a few tricks to use that would allow to possibly amplify the forces several orders of magnitude and allow use of low rf frequencies so as not to burn out coils.  There is a patent I posted about some time ago that comes close to what I am thinking bit I would intend to take it a bit further than even in the patent to amplify the effect.

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