### Author Topic: Warp drive requires negative energy  (Read 28780 times)

#### reefli

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##### Warp drive requires negative energy
« on: 07/27/2014 03:37 PM »
I just watched a video
and in it it said that if there is for example 50 positive energy there has to be 50 negative energy.
So where do they all come from?
This is what i came up with
Positive <- ? -> Negative
1                     =           1
20                   =           20

So is there natural energy?
in the attachment there is a picture of two rods of whetever you would like to call them, they are flat against eachother with nothing in the middle and they are in a air isolated room, what would happen if they got pulled appart somehow? would energy be generated in the middle of them or what? thats where i like to think as negative and positive energy is being created and the natural energy was there anyway.

Please don't hate or call me stupid im just wondering is it how that works, if anyone knows answers or any explanation for me thanks

#### reefli

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #1 on: 07/27/2014 03:43 PM »
i just had a quick thought through my mind, are black holes negative energy or positive? if they are negative then thats must be where all sucked in material must go to be produced back to natural energy.

#### RonM

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #2 on: 07/27/2014 04:02 PM »
You are over thinking the example. The total of positive energy (the hill) and the total of negative energy (the hole) must equal zero.

Look up virtual particles and Hawking Radiation. Virtual particles are pairs of matter and antimatter particles that appear out of the vacuum. They immediately collide and annihilate each other. Just like the idea behind positive and negative energy, they cancel each other out and the net result is zero. Hawking radiation is where virtual particles appear next to the event horizon of a black hole. One escapes and one falls in. Now the particle that escapes is no longer virtual and the mass of the black hole is reduced. Eventually, black holes evaporate away. Adding a particle to the Universe and reducing the mass of the black hole still adds up to zero change.

It's an amazing amount of activity and still it all adds up to zero.

#### reefli

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #3 on: 07/27/2014 04:05 PM »
so if it adds up to zero its "natural energy" ? and how can it evaporate away if like you said one escapes and one falls in, it cannot evaporate.
« Last Edit: 07/27/2014 04:19 PM by reefli »

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #4 on: 07/27/2014 06:25 PM »
so if it adds up to zero its "natural energy" ? and how can it evaporate away if like you said one escapes and one falls in, it cannot evaporate.
It's assumed that, to preserve conservation of mass/energy, the particle that falls into the black hole is negative energy, so reduces the mass of the hole. I was never that clear why the negative half of the virtual pair was more likely to fall in while the positive half went the other way. Hawking radiation would actually increase as the hole got smaller because the gravitational gradient would get steeper.

#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #5 on: 07/27/2014 09:45 PM »
oh this is easy! really! you see in QED the naked rest mass of all matter is negative so you just need to avoid renormalization by separating or delaying the renormalization term

Dr Woodward explains that here:

but besides that how about these ideas i posted elsewhere?
Quote
at any rate there are at least 5 ways to approach the negative mass energy thing that i have seen put forward in publication.

1. Casimir forces set up a condition of relative negative energy density between two closely spaced barriers. there is debate on whether a relative negative density behaves in all particulars as if it were negative energy for purposes of negative deformations of space.

2. squeezed light waveforms have a tiny component that is negative energy. working out how to grab that portion and amplify it and move it around seems to a laymen to be analogous to regular amplifier techniques. but i am not familiar with that enough to say that that is the case. physicists imply that this would be difficult but they are not engineers.

3. the region near black hole event horizons is chock full of negative energy. if so this should actually be relatively easy to access. remember the hooplah over the collider potentially making a mini black hole? such an event would not be dangerous (cosmic rays collide by the trillions at higher energy so any blackholes created vanish before they can feed and stabilize) and in fact might allow access to negative energy albeit with significant engineering issues.

4. like item three only involving quantum wormholes and not needing a collider.

5. Cosmic back reaction in macroscopic wormholes: throwing stuff into a wormhole magically generates it's opposite on the other end. positive energy input is negative energy output. as it happens this is more useful than harmful for wormhole tech. it can be used to hold a wormhole open, produce exotic energy and control the distal end of a wormhole. This greatly amuses me and annoys skeptics of wormhole travel.

In addition to the above which i have seen in theoretical discussion and articles about where to get the exotic matter/energy these are possibilities i have thought of myself using my Ko0K science powers as authorization:

6. recently there were articles about thermodynamically acceptable temperatures below zero degrees kelvin. you'd think that was absurd. it sound wackier than any kook science claim i have ever heard. but it's real. it seems to me that this would be negative energy.

7. dark matter. well it's possible however unlikely that some dark matter is exotic matter of the requisite properties.

8. Mirror sector matter. what are it's properties? are mirror photons negative in the sense we need for warps? if mirror matter exist as has been seriously proposed by many credentialed scientists then why can't other sectors of the universe exist which have the right properties? the cool thing with this is regular matter is easily converted to mirror matter under certain circumstances. it's like throwing a switch.

9. Time reversed particles or tachyonic particles would behave as negative energy (I think and hope.)

AND FINALLY: I believe Dr White has said in some of his presentations that he thinks he can eliminate the exotic matter requirements entirely by jiggering AC field waveforms in the ring the right way.

also part of the puzzle are being worked at slowly. here is something that might lead to better access to Casimir, Van Der Wahls and Plank scaled stuff:

http://phys.org/news/2014-07-boosting-space.html

my thoughts from another site:

Quote
this is a tie in because :

1. it shows that quantum flux can be amplified.
2. it shows the area of action can be enlarged.
3. technique could be applied to tech that develops casimir scale force technology
4. it is possible that similar techniques could do for casimir derived negative energy and thus;
5. it could be of use for warp drive and wormhole science and later technology.

My opinion on it is stuff like this that will build the foundation for ZPE, warp and wormhole breakthroughs in the future.

BTW there is a NASA paper pending on specra from Perseus Cluster and Andromeda that do not match known elemental spectral signatures. it is thought if there was not some sort of problem with the observations that this must represent some type of unknown matter:

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I do not know the bone fides of the website i sourced because i do not have time to go through the whole thing.i do know that there is a NASA paper on this discovery and other astronomers have detected this anomalous spectrum line in andromeda. I will link to the article and also to the NASA paper preprint abstract.

background information. the specral line emissions of every type of matter in the periodic table are known and commonly used to tell the make up of stuff on earth and all the way to the end of the universe. for a line to appear in a gap between these known signatures means either there was an observational error or glitch in the machines or something not of the known elements has been observed.

that means taken at face value this is some sort of exotic matter. possibly dark matter or even something made up of particles with nucleons made out of different quarks than normal protons and neutrons or made of monopoles or negative matter or something exciting like that.

nasa paper preprint at: http://arxiv.org/abs/1402.2301

« Last Edit: 07/27/2014 10:09 PM by Stormbringer »
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#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #6 on: 07/27/2014 10:17 PM »
i just had a quick thought through my mind, are black holes negative energy or positive? if they are negative then thats must be where all sucked in material must go to be produced back to natural energy.

in addition to the hawking radiation mechanism there is also negative energy  and mass that accumulate very near the event horizon as per an article by Dr Michio Kaku i read sometime back unless he was talking about the same thing.

plus if you had a wormhole you could make your own negative energy via a mechanism proposed to prevent mucking about with macroscopic wormholes. it's called Cosmic Back Reaction and though it does  limit wormhole utility in some ways in others it makes wormholes easier to make, maintain and use.
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#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #7 on: 07/27/2014 10:22 PM »

It's assumed that, to preserve conservation of mass/energy, the particle that falls into the black hole is negative energy, so reduces the mass of the hole. I was never that clear why the negative half of the virtual pair was more likely to fall in while the positive half went the other way. Hawking radiation would actually increase as the hole got smaller because the gravitational gradient would get steeper.

it would probably be random unless there is something else i am not considering. the inertia of a negative mass reacts the same way that the inertia of a regular mass behaves according to Dr Woodward from the video i posted. He says a lot of people who should know better get that wrong.
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#### IslandPlaya

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #8 on: 07/27/2014 10:31 PM »

It's assumed that, to preserve conservation of mass/energy, the particle that falls into the black hole is negative energy, so reduces the mass of the hole. I was never that clear why the negative half of the virtual pair was more likely to fall in while the positive half went the other way. Hawking radiation would actually increase as the hole got smaller because the gravitational gradient would get steeper.

it would probably be random unless there is something else i am not considering. the inertia of a negative mass reacts the same way that the inertia of a regular mass behaves according to Dr Woodward from the video i posted. He says a lot of people who should know better get that wrong.
I'm not sure that can be correct. If it were random then the hole would not evaporate (lose mass) over time as Hawking suggests.
I think the idea is that the pair of particles are virtual. They are in a superposition where they have both +ve and -ve mass. When one ventures over the event horizon, they are both promoted to real particles. Since observable particles can only have +ve mass the superposition collapses accordingly, with the one with -ve mass always being the one inside the event horizon.

#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #9 on: 07/27/2014 10:36 PM »

It's assumed that, to preserve conservation of mass/energy, the particle that falls into the black hole is negative energy, so reduces the mass of the hole. I was never that clear why the negative half of the virtual pair was more likely to fall in while the positive half went the other way. Hawking radiation would actually increase as the hole got smaller because the gravitational gradient would get steeper.

it would probably be random unless there is something else i am not considering. the inertia of a negative mass reacts the same way that the inertia of a regular mass behaves according to Dr Woodward from the video i posted. He says a lot of people who should know better get that wrong.
I'm not sure that can be correct. If it were random then the hole would not evaporate (lose mass) over time as Hawking suggests.
I think the idea is that the pair of particles are virtual. They are in a superposition where they have both +ve and -ve mass. When one ventures over the event horizon, they are both promoted to real particles. Since observable particles can only have +ve mass the superposition collapses accordingly, with the one with -ve mass always being the one inside the event horizon.

it could very well be wrong. Dr Woodward did say the inertia was the same but it was I that extrapolated that to randomizing the distribution at the event horizon; though i was using Dr Kaku's statement as my guide on that. I was still "using the jedi force" to come up with the conclusion. I am not in the fields in question and approach it with more optimism than may be warranted.
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#### QuantumG

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #10 on: 07/27/2014 10:37 PM »
I thought you were claiming antimatter has -ve mass? Antimatter is observable.

However, if there was some quirk of black holes that causes the emission of regular particles to be preferred over antimatter particles, that would explain black hole evaporation (it's just matter/antimatter annihilation in the core) and it would go towards explaining the abundance of matter over antimatter in the observable universe.

That'd be neat. Clearly the way to test it is with domesticated black holes.

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#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #11 on: 07/27/2014 10:45 PM »
in a article about how  to escape the universe Dr Michio kaku  in the section on negative energy or mass said this:

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/escapefromtheuniverse

Quote
Even black holes have negative energy surrounding them, near their event horizons. In principle, this may yield vast quantities of negative energy. However, the technical problems of extracting negative energy so close to a black hole are extremely tricky.

this seems to me that he meant outside the event horizon since stuff inside the event horizon is unreachable except according to one article i read which discussed a method of eliminating the event horizon with specificaly applied waveforms of directed energy.

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#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #12 on: 07/28/2014 01:47 AM »

That'd be neat. Clearly the way to test it is with domesticated black holes.

i wonder which would be easier to domesticate: Cosmic ray initiated blackholes or one made in a collider? there would be more of them in the cosmic ray variety. more chances? but the ones in a collider would be easier to time and would appear at basically a known fixed position each time.

there might just be a way to grab on to one. that article on lengthening the quantum flux field area i posted above might be adaptable to acting as a plank length tweezer.
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#### momerathe

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #13 on: 07/28/2014 04:20 PM »
Threads like this make me die a little inside.

(all emphasis in quotes mine)

1. Casimir forces set up a condition of relative negative energy density between two closely spaced barriers. there is debate on whether a relative negative density behaves in all particulars as if it were negative energy for purposes of negative deformations of space.

Indeed.

You also have the problem of the parallel plates themselves, which will contribute rather more to the local mass-energy of space than the region between will subtract from it.

Quote
2. squeezed light waveforms have a tiny component that is negative energy. working out how to grab that portion and amplify it and move it around seems to a laymen to be analogous to regular amplifier techniques. but i am not familiar with that enough to say that that is the case. physicists imply that this would be difficult but they are not engineers.

What does this even mean?

In any event, these "components" are not separable, any more than you can pick up the crest of a water wave and take it somewhere else.

Quote
3. the region near black hole event horizons is chock full of negative energy. if so this should actually be relatively easy to access. remember the hooplah over the collider potentially making a mini black hole? such an event would not be dangerous (cosmic rays collide by the trillions at higher energy so any blackholes created vanish before they can feed and stabilize) and in fact might allow access to negative energy albeit with significant engineering issues.

[citation needed]

it's true that when considering Hawking radiation it appears that the infalling particle had negative energy. The problem here is that it's inside the event horizon, and causally disconnected from the rest of the universe.

There's another point I'd like to make here: between this and your previous bullet, you seem to be thinking of energy as "stuff". Energy is not stuff; you cannot pick it up, move it, amplify it, or anything else. Energy is a property of stuff (by which I mean fields and particles).

Quote
4. like item three only involving quantum wormholes and not needing a collider.

5. Cosmic back reaction in macroscopic wormholes: throwing stuff into a wormhole magically generates it's opposite on the other end. positive energy input is negative energy output. as it happens this is more useful than harmful for wormhole tech. it can be used to hold a wormhole open, produce exotic energy and control the distal end of a wormhole. This greatly amuses me and annoys skeptics of wormhole travel.

[citation needed]

I did a search for this, and all I found was an old article from Analog magazine.

Quote
6. recently there were articles about thermodynamically acceptable temperatures below zero degrees kelvin. you'd think that was absurd. it sound wackier than any kook science claim i have ever heard. but it's real. it seems to me that this would be negative energy.

This is absolutely wrong. Negative temperatures are caused by population inversions, and they are very (positively) energetic indeed.

I'm also worried by your use of the word "Seem". This is not really a topic you can intuit about without knowing anything about the specifics.

Quote
7. dark matter. well it's possible however unlikely that some dark matter is exotic matter of the requisite properties.

No it isn't. dark matter definitionally has positive mass. that's kind of the point.

Quote
8. Mirror sector matter. what are it's properties?

The same as regular matter, except interacting via bosons of different parity. just because it has "mirror" in the name, doesn't mean you get to make up whatever you feel like.

Quote
9. Time reversed particles or tachyonic particles would behave as negative energy (I think and hope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyon_condensation

thermodynamics will get you in the end

#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #14 on: 07/28/2014 06:47 PM »
Threads like this make me die a little inside.

Quote

What does this even mean?

In any event, these "components" are not separable, any more than you can pick up the crest of a water wave and take it somewhere else.

in power circuits generators etc; you can pick up individual components of an electrical wave form or multiple waveforms and lead the bits away to do separate but real bits of work. for example in polyphase circuits you can tap just one phase. i believe also that you could time the pick up to occur only during the negative portion of the wave form if you had suitable circuitry to work with negative energy or mass. it seems to me the problem would be akin to electrical engineering.

Quote
[citation needed]

citation of negative particles or energy outside the event horizon of a black hole (parts are implicit or self evident; but ) from michio Kaku's article on how to escape the universe. the article was picked up and reprinted in several magazines but here is where i found it:

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/escapefromtheuniverse

EXCERPT:
Quote
Even black holes have negative energy surrounding them, near their event horizons. In principle, this may yield vast quantities of negative energy. However, the technical problems of extracting negative energy so close to a black hole are extremely tricky.

Quote
There's another point I'd like to make here: between this and your previous bullet, you seem to be thinking of energy as "stuff". Energy is not stuff; you cannot pick it up, move it, amplify it, or anything else. Energy is a property of stuff (by which I mean fields and particles).

of course i know that energy is a property of particles. when summarizing as opposed perhaps to publishing peer reviewed papers (as if that is something i do)  i don't see a need to go to the trouble of adding extra and superflous information of the details. i ramble enough as it is. If at some point I turn my garage into a mad Scientist's den to build my star cruiser I might take the trouble to make up impressive looking equations of Greek squiggles for everyone's amusement. for now i am discussing in general English and seeking information from other such as yourself. Which i immensely enjoy even when being scolded.

Quote
[citation needed]

I did a search for this, and all I found was an old article from Analog magazine.
not surprising. my source is Dr John Cramer; professor emeritus of physics at Washington University, etc. Who also wrote columns for Analog magazine. however i cite from his talk here:

Quote
This is absolutely wrong. Negative temperatures are caused by population inversions, and they are very (positively) energetic indeed.
fine. I know the mathematics allows for sub absolute zero temperatures but that the mathematical signs are then reversed from normal thermodynamical expression.
at absolute zero there should be no movement or passage of time hence it was logical to assign negative energy in that sense to that odd result because if it starts wiggling on the other side of zero thats just positive energy then how can you say it's beyond Zero?.  positive movement is positive temperature. though i am looking not only for negative energy but acceptable proxies for it. recall the idea about the casimir plates.

Quote
No it isn't. dark matter definitionally has positive mass. that's kind of the point.
i think i heard someone say there are at least twenty flavors of dark matter in contention. therefore i think if we are positing unicorns i can pick any darned unicorn i like. in other words if all these unknown types of matter are permissible why not others. and there is support for this in the form of the specra from perseus and andromeda. who heard of mirror matter? why is it that it comes up in the general consciousness and then scientist say oh yeah we knew this was possible all along? how many other types of exotic matter are out there in dusty tomes that will be acknowledged only when it jumps up into popular knowledge for a while? why is it people don't know general relativity predicts coupling of gravity with magnetism but when Dr Tajmar gets some result there are dozens of articles that mention "oh we knew gravity and magnetism were coupled all along; it is GR don'cha know?" that's kind aggravating.

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The same as regular matter, except interacting via bosons of different parity. just because it has "mirror" in the name, doesn't mean you get to make up whatever you feel like.

except it isn't the same. it interacts with normal matter only via gravity and weak photon mixing (collisions.) there are mirror magnetic fields. there are mirror photons. none of which we can even see.
This is in the literature of  the art. we do not know the properties of the mirror sector. we assume it's Constants and so forth are the same as the normal sector. what if it isn't? what if those dark photons have a different speed limit or distances are compressed or any of a myriad of other "what ifs?"

and there are other sectors allowable in the math if I recall correctly. what of those?

the detection of anomalous (In the strongest sense possible) spectral lines in Perseus and Andromeda intrigues me. like you said dark matter is supposed to be dark as in you cannot see it. so this is something else because you can see it. If it is not some observational error then it has to be a new form of matter. something that does not fit into our periodic table. maybe nucleons with weird quark make up. perhaps atoms with nucleons entirely different from protons and neutrons. (yeah, I know spectral emissions come from dancing electrons. ) maybe an electron substitute. whatever it is it's weird. and weird is good when authentic.
« Last Edit: 07/28/2014 07:53 PM by Stormbringer »
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#### momerathe

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #15 on: 07/29/2014 04:07 PM »

In any event, these "components" are not separable, any more than you can pick up the crest of a water wave and take it somewhere else.

in power circuits generators etc; you can pick up individual components of an electrical wave form or multiple waveforms and lead the bits away to do separate but real bits of work. for example in polyphase circuits you can tap just one phase. i believe also that you could time the pick up to occur only during the negative portion of the wave form if you had suitable circuitry to work with negative energy or mass. it seems to me the problem would be akin to electrical engineering.

these are two completely different concepts. The negative energy density of squeezed light is an ensemble phenomenon, similar to an interference pattern. While you could indeed separate out the photons in frequency domain (or phase, etc.) you can't take the dark fringes and leave the light ones behind.

Quote
citation of negative particles or energy outside the event horizon of a black hole (parts are implicit or self evident; but ) from michio Kaku's article on how to escape the universe. the article was picked up and reprinted in several magazines but here is where i found it:

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/escapefromtheuniverse

EXCERPT:
Quote
Even black holes have negative energy surrounding them, near their event horizons. In principle, this may yield vast quantities of negative energy. However, the technical problems of extracting negative energy so close to a black hole are extremely tricky.

Ugh. I wouldn't trust Michio Kaku to tie my shoelaces. He's rather too fond of throwing away factual accuracy to make a trite phrase.

Quote
Quote
There's another point I'd like to make here: between this and your previous bullet, you seem to be thinking of energy as "stuff". Energy is not stuff; you cannot pick it up, move it, amplify it, or anything else. Energy is a property of stuff (by which I mean fields and particles).

of course i know that energy is a property of particles. when summarizing as opposed perhaps to publishing peer reviewed papers (as if that is something i do)  i don't see a need to go to the trouble of adding extra and superflous information of the details.

It's really not superfluous at all - it's key to understanding energy as a physical concept.

Take black holes. Yes, the particles in Hawking radiation that fall into the event horizon have negative energy - but they're just ordinary particles nonetheless. Their negative energy is a property of the situation you find them in. If you could magically fish them from the bring of destruction and store them, you would find that they are just regular particles with positive mass.

In fact, I'm surprised you haven't listed the most obvious and uncontroversial example of negative energy - nuclear binding energy*. We're surrounded, and indeed composed of, negative energy, but you can't isolate it because it's a property of the system of nucleons, and without the (considerably more massive) nucleons - no negative energy.

You see why I make the connection? To make statements about taking negative energy from X, without reference to the particles and fields that give rise to it, is meaningless.

(* tl;dr version: a deuteron weighs less than a free proton + a free neutron, because the binding energy between them is negative.)

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at absolute zero there should be no movement or passage of time hence it was logical to assign negative energy in that sense to that odd result because if it starts wiggling on the other side of zero thats just positive energy then how can you say it's beyond Zero?.  positive movement is positive temperature.

temperature is not what you think it is.
there's a good explanation here: http://bit.ly/1bkvt2c (video)

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therefore i think if we are positing unicorns i can pick any darned unicorn i like.

Yeah, you can, but then it just becomes noise. You can daydream about exotic matter particles all you want, but the conversation is moot unless there's reason to believe that they exist.

thermodynamics will get you in the end

#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #16 on: 07/29/2014 05:40 PM »

Ugh. I wouldn't trust Michio Kaku to tie my shoelaces. He's rather too fond of throwing away factual accuracy to make a trite phrase.

In a duel of credentials who would win; you or Dr Kaku?

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In fact, I'm surprised you haven't listed the most obvious and uncontroversial example of negative energy - nuclear binding energy*. We're surrounded, and indeed composed of, negative energy, but you can't isolate it because it's a property of the system of nucleons, and without the (considerably more massive) nucleons - no negative energy.

i was being too flippant at the beginning of my first post in this thread. But i also mentioned that in QED theory the bare mass of all matter is negative.

i did not touch on the strong force because then i would go into something that would probably go into territory the mods would be uncomfortable with and shut it down. but briefly Zvi Bern and other Sakurai prize winning physicists have published papers that peg the graviton (it's feynman diagram and it's mathematical representation) as being a doubled version of the feynman diagram of the gluon.

thats not "woo woo" territory yet. but the next step puts it into what you would consider "woo woo" land so i won't go there.

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You see why I make the connection? To make statements about taking negative energy from X, without reference to the particles and fields that give rise to it, is meaningless.

I will be more careful in the future then. but i would ask you to look at Dr Woodward's own explanation of his form of the Mach's principle equation.  I linked it earlier in the thread. he allows a glance at the math for those who would be interested but because of his audience he passes over three pages of algebra to explain the terms in the final equation. he does so in English terms and the math is thus comprehensible to a layman.

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(* tl;dr version: a deuteron weighs less than a free proton + a free neutron, because the binding energy between them is negative.)

this is outstanding. thank you for putting that in a simple form.

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therefore i think if we are positing unicorns i can pick any darned unicorn i like.

Quote
Yeah, you can, but then it just becomes noise. You can daydream about exotic matter particles all you want, but the conversation is moot unless there's reason to believe that they exist.

ok. i was being too flippant again. In part; the point i was trying to make is that the nature of dark matter is largely unknown. i cited 20 candidates for species of dark matter. it turns out there were actually 60.
Dark matter as it stands is a placeholder term for an unknown species or species (plural) of matter necessary to explain observations. there is actually a chart of the dark matter candidates and how they intersect with each other.

right now they are all unicorns. if i want to say tachyons are not a mathematical artifact i would be on equally solid a ground as the dark matter theorists for some of the dark matter candidates. if i want to posit that a domain analogous to the mirror sector is also real and not a mathematical artifact then i am on even ground with some of the dark matter candidates.

Kook science or fringers or whatever have said gravity and magnetism are related. turns out that so did Einstein in GR. yet they are kooks. established science was kinda snickering about it until something happened in their precincts which made them comment. then it was "well we knew it all along; It's GR didn't you know that?" about 20 years ago or so fringers said gravity and the strong force were related. decades later prize winning scientists publish that this is likely so at least as far as the diagrams and math are concerned.

It's all unicorns. all of it. that does not mean that there isn't dark matter. but it may be one or more of them but it cannot be all of them. therefore there is a lot of establishment science support for their own flavor of unicorn.
« Last Edit: 07/29/2014 05:43 PM by Stormbringer »
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

#### IslandPlaya

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #17 on: 07/29/2014 06:09 PM »
@Stormbringer

Despite the smiley...
It is a basic mistake to appeal to Authority when you try to compare 'credentials' between Kaku and momerathe in support of your argument. And who knows what credentials momerathe has?

From what I know, I would back momerathe in a shoelace tying contest.

Please refrain from being too flippant in future. I cannot explain what I feel to be correct physics as well as momerathe, so I too will try to improve going forward.

#### Stormbringer

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #18 on: 07/29/2014 06:36 PM »
@Stormbringer

Despite the smiley...
It is a basic mistake to appeal to Authority when you try to compare 'credentials' between Kaku and momerathe in support of your argument. And who knows what credentials momerathe has?

From what I know, I would back momerathe in a shoelace tying contest.

Please refrain from being too flippant in future. I cannot explain what I feel to be correct physics as well as momerathe, so I too will try to improve going forward.

whatever one's opinion of Dr Kaku is; you can bet he did not make that up. you can bet he had primary sources.

and since we are speaking of logical fallacies let me add my own submission for one:  How about trying to discredit information by "attacking" sources? otherwise known as a subtype of argumentum ad hominem.

I did not think the poster's remark was belligerent or i would not have posted the smiley. so i was gently poking him or her for slipping into that. no offense was intended.

When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

#### IslandPlaya

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##### Re: Warp drive requires negative energy
« Reply #19 on: 07/29/2014 06:47 PM »