Author Topic: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - NET 2017  (Read 37186 times)

Online Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #20 on: 06/18/2014 07:03 AM »
Here's the latest artwork of Chang'e 5 that I got from this presentation. It seems to be missing the support structure for the ascent stage. You can see the antenna on the orbital module. I'm not sure what the purple things on the sides are. Perhaps Helium pressurisation tanks. The ascent stage looks like it has solar panels on top. Launch is still scheduled for 2017.

http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/pdf/pres/copuos2014/tech-06.pdf
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #21 on: 06/19/2014 09:35 AM »
Here's the latest artwork of Chang'e 5 that I got from this presentation. It seems to be missing the support structure for the ascent stage. You can see the antenna on the orbital module. I'm not sure what the purple things on the sides are. Perhaps Helium pressurisation tanks. The ascent stage looks like it has solar panels on top. Launch is still scheduled for 2017.

http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/pdf/pres/copuos2014/tech-06.pdf

I think the solar panels are attached to the descent stage, and are folded up.
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Offline Nibb31

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #22 on: 06/20/2014 12:50 PM »
Am I the only one who thinks that the descent reentry module is way oversized for a 2Kg sample? It seems the be bigger than the entire ascent module and looks like an exact scaled replica of the Shenzhou descent reentry module.

I was expecting it to be about the size of the Stardust reentry capsule. A smaller capsule would allow a much simpler direct ascent mission profile.

The only reason I can think of for using such a big capsule, is to test the heatshield and reentry parameters for future manned lunar missions. That would also explain the LOR mission profile. Could there be any other reason?
« Last Edit: 06/20/2014 02:43 PM by Nibb31 »

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #23 on: 06/20/2014 02:18 PM »
Am I the only one who thinks that the descent module is way oversized for a 2Kg sample? It seems the be bigger than the entire ascent module and looks like an exact scaled replica of the Shenzhou descent module.

I was expecting it to be about the size of the Stardust reentry capsule. A smaller capsule would allow a much simpler direct ascent mission profile.

The only reason I can think of for using such a big capsule, is to test the heatshield and reentry parameters for future manned lunar missions. That would also explain the LOR mission profile. Could there be any other reason?

When you say "descent module" I think you mean the reentry capsule, as opposed to the lander, right?

I'm roughly eyeballing it, but the lander is in the same general size category as the JPL MoonRise lander for sample return.

I do suspect that the CE-5 is in many ways an engineering test vehicle for gaining experience for a human lunar mission. Everything seems to be a bit larger than it needs to be if their goal is simply to get some dirt and bring it back.

Online Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #24 on: 06/25/2014 07:36 AM »
From

P.J. Ye, J.C. Huang, Z.Z. Sun, M.F. Yang and L.Z. Meng, "The process and experience in the development of Chinese lunar probe," Science China Technological Sciences, vol. 44, pp. 543-558, 24 June 2014.
http://tech.scichina.com:8082/sciE/CN/volumn/volumn_6889.shtml#

Attached is another artwork of Chang'e 5 taken from the paper. Below is a summary of the Chang'e 5 mission.

Launch mass is about 8 t. Flight consists of 11 stages. Flight time of about 1 month. Five day trans Lunar flight. Lunar orbit is 200 km. Descent and ascent stage separate from orbiter and enter 15x200 km orbit. After landing and transfer of samples to ascent stage, the ascent stage is launched to a 15x180 km orbit. The ascent stage docks to the orbiter and transfers the samples across. The ascent stage undocks from orbiter. After 10 days in Lunar orbit, the orbiter fires to send the return capsule to Earth in 5 days. At 5000 km, the orbiter separates from the capsule. After 20 minutes at 120 km altitude. A semi ballistic skip reentry is performed with altitude decreasing to 60 km and then increasing to 100 to 140 km. Parachutes are deployed at 10 km altitude. Landing is at Siziwang Banner.

"Management method for future manned lunar and deep space exploration program services."
« Last Edit: 06/25/2014 07:38 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #25 on: 07/01/2014 02:26 AM »
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2544/1

Red tortoise, blue turtle

by Dwayne A. Day
Monday, June 30, 2014

It wasn’t that long ago that English-language news articles were stating that China was planning on landing humans on the Moon by 2017. In fact, as late as 2007 some articles were claiming that this would happen by 2010. Of course, they were wrong, and even the 2017 claims have faded. Conducting a post-mortem on those articles, it was obvious even at the time that many of them were the result of translation errors. Chinese officials announced plans for unmanned lunar orbital missions by 2010 and lunar sample return missions by 2017 and somebody dropped the “un” part of “unmanned” and jumped to conclusions that the Chinese were going to send humans to the Moon in the very near future. (See, for instance, “The phony space race”, The Space Review, June 9, 2003—yes, 2003.) Other articles making these claims were less error than malice—people selectively quoting sources in order to try and justify a US human lunar return by claiming that we were in a race with China. They can consider themselves lucky that the noise of the Internet frequently drowns out mistakes and malice in its maelstrom.

In fact, once you start looking back at this subject over the past decade, it becomes quite apparent that the Chinese government was both open and accurate about its human spaceflight and lunar exploration plans, even while concealing virtually everything about their military space program. As early as 2007 Chinese officials were discussing their plans for human spaceflight, indicating that the country would launch a series of increasingly ambitious human orbital spacecraft with the goal of developing a multi-component space station by 2020. Human lunar missions were not in their portfolio. However, they also indicated that they had a three-phase robotic lunar exploration plan. Phase I was to orbit the Moon with robotic spacecraft. Phase II was to land a rover on the Moon. And Phase III was to eventually conduct a robotic lunar sample return mission by 2017. (See “History doesn’t echo, it reverbs”, The Space Review, February 10, 2010.) The Chinese did not provide all of the details of their plans, but over time they revealed more information, and so far they have accomplished the first two phases.




Online Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #26 on: 07/04/2014 05:34 AM »
Thanks Blackstar. That's a very good article. I especially liked the last two lines about the two tortoises. Thanks also for the acknowledgement.

For some reason, it got into my head that China would make a decision on a crewed Lunar landing in 2015, but the 2011 Chinese space policy paper that I thought I got that information from only says that China will only study crewed Lunar landings, presumably until the next five year plan in 2016.

"China will conduct studies on the preliminary plan for a human lunar landing."
« Last Edit: 07/04/2014 05:36 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #27 on: 07/04/2014 11:04 PM »
Great article Blackstar. The last time was epic. Personally, I believe that the Chinese are being deliberately slow. They want to be looked down. And there's zero economic incentive for now. Probably more worried about having ITAR free components for their satellite. And doing the propulsion, launch site and LV transition. They'll match Russian 90s technology, at competitive prices.
Meanwhile, they are demonstrating planetary capabilities on par with the ISS partners. They might get to play with the big boys now.

Offline Satori

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Offline Satori

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Offline plutogno

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #30 on: 02/22/2015 07:59 AM »
a Chinese presentation to the UNOOSA which gives some detail of CE-5 and clarifies somewhat the future of CE-4
http://www.unoosa.org/pdf/pres/stsc2015/tech-06E.pdf

in particular:
Quote
Chang’e 4 is being carried on deepen argument and proposed technical improvements to develop lunar or other aster [sic] exploration now.

Online Phillip Clark

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #31 on: 02/22/2015 08:06 AM »
Thank you for posting this Plutogno.   Fascinating information.

Could someone translate the Chinese captions on slides 14 and 16 please?

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #32 on: 02/22/2015 05:55 PM »
in particular:
Quote
Chang’e 4 is being carried on deepen argument and proposed technical improvements to develop lunar or other aster [sic] exploration now.

That's a little hard to understand. I interpret "carried on" to mean that it is still ongoing. I don't know what "deepen argument" is supposed to mean. I am guessing that "aster" means "astronomy" and is referring to the possibility of carrying another telescope like they did before.

I know that I'm a broken record on this, but I would really like to see them fly CE-4 and another rover. They did not get much mobility experience with that rover, and the fact that it has a ground-penetrating radar gives it a lot of value. I'd like to see them do that again and operate the rover over much longer distances. I hope they have figured out what failed on Yutu.

Online Phil Stooke

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #33 on: 02/22/2015 06:37 PM »
Aster may mean asteroid, following the Chang'E 2 Toutatis flyby.  A dedicated NEA mission, conceivably even a lander, would be a great mission. 

On the other hand, I would also like to see a second lander/rover on the Moon.  Earlier discussion focused on flying the sampling hardware for CE5 so it could be tested before the actual sample mission.  Plus, aiming for enhance mobility would be a good idea.  Given the quality of LRO NAC images, I think a Lunokhod-style real-time driving scenario, rather than a Mars rover scenario (images, hazard mapping, path selection, upload commands for every drive) would be much more likely to achieve long range traverses.

Phil

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #34 on: 02/22/2015 07:46 PM »
Aster may mean asteroid, following the Chang'E 2 Toutatis flyby.  A dedicated NEA mission, conceivably even a lander, would be a great mission. 


Yeah, that could be it, although in that case it refers to lunar OR asteroid, which implies that CE-4 could be a non-lunar mission?

Offline Satori

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #36 on: 03/06/2015 09:46 PM »
From China Daily: China set to launch fifth lunar probe in 2017.

"As the backup probe of Chang'e 3, Chang'e 4 will be adapted to verify technologies for Chang'e 5, according to Xinhua."

That implies that CE-4 will indeed launch. But what will it carry?

I could see a rather straightforward path--take off the astronomy payload and include a basic sample arm or drill or something related to the CE-5 sample collection system. Include a second rover.

(I'll admit that this is my own bias--it's what I think is logical and what I'd like to see them do.)

Offline eeergo

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #37 on: 10/13/2015 03:30 AM »
A lot more information just released in the 2015 AGU meeting in San Francisco (found it thanks to Emily L's retweet) from the mineral spectrometer instrument group:

https://agu.confex.com/agu/fm15/meetingapp.cgi/Paper/68812

Quote
The Chinese Chang’e 5 (CE-5) lunar sample return mission is scheduled to launch in 2017 to bring back surface regolith and drill samples from the northeastern Oceanus Procellarum region on the Moon. The Lunar Mineralogical Spectrometer (LMS) on the CE-5 lander is a VIS/IR imaging spectrometer (0.48 μm -3.2 μm) designed to analyze the mineralogical composition of the sample return site. LMS employs acousto-optic tunable filters (AOTFs) and is composed of a VIS/NIR module (0.48 μm -1.450 μm) and an IR module (1.4 μm -3.2 μm). It has spectral resolution in the range of 5-25 nm, with a field of view (FOV) of 3°×3°. An aluminum plate and an Infragold plate are used as calibration targets in the VIS/NIR and IR spectral range, respectively. Before launch, a ground verification test of LMS needs to be conducted in order to: [...]
-DaviD-

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #38 on: 10/13/2015 04:53 AM »
From China Daily: China set to launch fifth lunar probe in 2017.

"As the backup probe of Chang'e 3, Chang'e 4 will be adapted to verify technologies for Chang'e 5, according to Xinhua."

That implies that CE-4 will indeed launch. But what will it carry?

I could see a rather straightforward path--take off the astronomy payload and include a basic sample arm or drill or something related to the CE-5 sample collection system. Include a second rover.

(I'll admit that this is my own bias--it's what I think is logical and what I'd like to see them do.)

Does this imply that it will fly first?  Or is it just being used as a terrestrial testbed prior to its own flight later?
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Online Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #39 on: 10/13/2015 08:30 AM »
Does this imply that it will fly first?  Or is it just being used as a terrestrial testbed prior to its own flight later?

The Chang'e-5 Lunar sample return mission is flying first in 2017. After the successful landing of Chang'e-3, there was some speculation that the Chang'e-4 backup mission might be cancelled. However, it was later confirmed that it will be flying in 2018, targeted for a far side landing.
« Last Edit: 10/13/2015 08:37 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

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