Author Topic: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program  (Read 419588 times)

Offline Tulse

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 546
  • Liked: 395
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #640 on: 05/24/2017 07:55 pm »
I'm sure this is a basic newbie question, so my apologies in advance, but why wouldn't this vehicle also launch horizontally?  Wouldn't that provide far more flexibility and ease of processing?  What is the advantage for vertical launch in this case?

Offline envy887

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8144
  • Liked: 6801
  • Likes Given: 2965
Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #641 on: 05/24/2017 07:59 pm »
The main engine is LOX/hydrogen but will toxic chemicals requiring suited ground crew be required for handling after the ship has landed?

Don't see why a suborbital aircraft would have on-orbit maneuvering thrusters, so probably not.
The X15 had them as well. At the maximum operating altitudes of these vehicles aerodynamic control surfaces are very poor unless they are very big.

But they don't have to be toxic. X15 used HTP

And Falcon 9 booster uses cold N2 thrusters.

Offline envy887

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8144
  • Liked: 6801
  • Likes Given: 2965
Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #642 on: 05/24/2017 08:03 pm »
I'm sure this is a basic newbie question, so my apologies in advance, but why wouldn't this vehicle also launch horizontally?  Wouldn't that provide far more flexibility and ease of processing?  What is the advantage for vertical launch in this case?

Because it weighs more than a fully loaded Airbus A210 but has wings the size of a Cessna, and those wings don't generate nearly enough lift to get airborne at runway speeds. The wings are barely enough to keep it flying empty.

Offline Rocket Science

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10586
  • NASA Educator Astronaut Candidate Applicant 2002
  • Liked: 4548
  • Likes Given: 13523
Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #643 on: 05/24/2017 08:13 pm »
I'm sure this is a basic newbie question, so my apologies in advance, but why wouldn't this vehicle also launch horizontally?  Wouldn't that provide far more flexibility and ease of processing?  What is the advantage for vertical launch in this case?
As shown in conceptual form those wings are inefficient at low speed and you would need an extremely long runway to get it to rotate and climb out. Then the vehicle would spend a long period in the atmosphere at hypersonic speed creating a high heat load to deal with. Better to launch it vertically and get out of the atmosphere as quickly as possible since you have the engine that provides enough thrust... Vertical processing is simple as you can come along side the vehicle with the second stage and payload...
« Last Edit: 05/24/2017 11:37 pm by Rocket Science »
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Offline john smith 19

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10351
  • Everyplaceelse
  • Liked: 2431
  • Likes Given: 13606
Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #644 on: 05/24/2017 08:56 pm »
Could the Blue Origin partnership still be intact if they're doing the expendable launcher?  Or was it tied to the spaceplane's propulsion?
Good question. The business with Blue is very disappointing for several reasons. To begin with changing engine suppliers this late in the competition bodes badly for their ability to execute on time and budget.

The reason why this has happened is also of concern. Either their business relationship with Blue has seriously broken down due to unknown reasons (Boeing feel threatened by them? Blue asked too much for the engine?)
or
Boeing never planned to use them in the first place. They were simply "bid candy" to persuade DARPA they had a "New Space" partner when in reality they were never acceptable to Boeing management.

Either explanation suggests Boeing management simply does not have the attitude needed to meet the project goals.  :(

IOW a lot like the X33 programme.
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline dchill

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 116
  • Liked: 39
  • Likes Given: 4
Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #645 on: 05/24/2017 09:12 pm »
It's X-33 all over again.
Given that it's putting together Boeing, DARPA and rockets, I'd say it's closer to being ALASA all over again.

Offline john smith 19

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10351
  • Everyplaceelse
  • Liked: 2431
  • Likes Given: 13606
Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #646 on: 05/24/2017 09:28 pm »
http://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2017-05-24
Is it just my memory or have they dialed back from 10 flights in 10 days, with at least the last one leading to a launch to 10 engine tests in 10 days?

[EDIT That cost target is going to be one hell of a target to hit unless the development budget for the expendable upper stage is included in the programme budget. Also LH2 is the most expensive fuel outside the Hydrazines.  For safety reasons (and in this context safety --> cost) you want to avoid solids and keep the US as simple as possible. That suggests a) Pressure fed liquids or b)some kind of low cost pump system. You also want the US GNC as simple as possible.
Opening up my notebook I see the following errors lead to the following increases in target orbit dispersion (in nautical miles)
1fps --> 1nm dispersion  1deg  in angle --> 4 nm dispersion  1 nm altitude error --> 5nm dispersion.

Note none of these need a full blown INS to do provided the state vector of the stage is transferred from the first stage. The obvious option is a military grade GPS system (which have been engineered into artillery shells). Attitude and speed could be sensed with internal sensors but altitude is difficult to do cheaply given the range needed (a radar altimeter with a range of 300Km is not trivial). ]
« Last Edit: 05/24/2017 10:24 pm by john smith 19 »
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline Elmar Moelzer

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3661
  • Liked: 849
  • Likes Given: 1062
Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #647 on: 05/24/2017 09:41 pm »
Same old defense contractors all over again. Wake me up when this actually gets somewhere, which I predict, it will not. This will be cancelled before anything ever flies.

Offline QuantumG

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9238
  • Australia
  • Liked: 4477
  • Likes Given: 1108
Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #648 on: 05/24/2017 10:46 pm »
I wonder if it'll be able to launch through clouds.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline MATTBLAK

  • Elite Veteran & 'J.A.F.A'
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5362
  • 'Space Cadets' Let us; UNITE!! (crickets chirping)
  • New Zealand
  • Liked: 2239
  • Likes Given: 3883
Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #649 on: 05/24/2017 10:55 pm »
I'd like to have some optimism for this venture - and maybe I will in one regard; at least it's not Lockheed Martin doing this project.
"Those who can't, Blog".   'Space Cadets' of the World - Let us UNITE!! (crickets chirping)

Offline yg1968

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17267
  • Liked: 7123
  • Likes Given: 3065
Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #650 on: 05/24/2017 11:32 pm »
Here is another article on the announcement:

http://spacenews.com/darpa-selects-boeing-for-spaceplane-project/

Quote from: SN
DARPA spokesman Rick Weiss said the value of the award to Boeing is $146 million. The award is structured as a public-private partnership, with Boeing also contributing to the overall cost of the program, but Boeing declined to disclose its contribution.


Offline envy887

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8144
  • Liked: 6801
  • Likes Given: 2965
Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #651 on: 05/24/2017 11:53 pm »
Is it just my memory or have they dialed back from 10 flights in 10 days, with at least the last one leading to a launch to 10 engine tests in 10 days?

No, the program still requires 10 flights in 10 days.
Quote
[EDIT That cost target is going to be one hell of a target to hit unless the development budget for the expendable upper stage is included in the programme budget. Also LH2 is the most expensive fuel outside the Hydrazines.  For safety reasons (and in this context safety --> cost) you want to avoid solids and keep the US as simple as possible. That suggests a) Pressure fed liquids or b)some kind of low cost pump system. You also want the US GNC as simple as possible....
The cost target is $5M, which is about what an Electron launch costs. The upper stage is also roughly the size of the Electron booster. Seems like Boeing could get reasonably near the cost target if they really wanted.

Offline yg1968

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17267
  • Liked: 7123
  • Likes Given: 3065
Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #652 on: 05/24/2017 11:57 pm »
Here is another article on the announcement:

http://spacenews.com/darpa-selects-boeing-for-spaceplane-project/

Quote from: SN
DARPA spokesman Rick Weiss said the value of the award to Boeing is $146 million. The award is structured as a public-private partnership, with Boeing also contributing to the overall cost of the program, but Boeing declined to disclose its contribution.

The fact that the award is only for $146M is encouraging. It shouldn't prevent other companies from competing with Boeing.
« Last Edit: 05/24/2017 11:58 pm by yg1968 »

Offline GWH

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1742
  • Canada
  • Liked: 1929
  • Likes Given: 1277
Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #653 on: 05/25/2017 12:00 am »
It's X-33 all over again.
Given that it's putting together Boeing, DARPA and rockets, I'd say it's closer to being ALASA all over again.

Or Delta IV minus DARPA.

Offline envy887

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8144
  • Liked: 6801
  • Likes Given: 2965
Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #654 on: 05/25/2017 12:05 am »
It's X-33 all over again.
Given that it's putting together Boeing, DARPA and rockets, I'd say it's closer to being ALASA all over again.

Or Delta IV minus DARPA.

I think the comparisons to Delta IV start and end with the booster using hydrolox.

Offline QuantumG

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9238
  • Australia
  • Liked: 4477
  • Likes Given: 1108
Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #655 on: 05/25/2017 12:28 am »
The cost target is $5M, which is about what an Electron launch costs. The upper stage is also roughly the size of the Electron booster. Seems like Boeing could get reasonably near the cost target if they really wanted.

It is suspiciously, isn't it? :)

We often think about reusability as being about reducing costs, what if the point of the XS-1 program is to show that it can be about something else - improving launch capability. As we watch RocketLab scrub for perfect weather, it certainly would be nice to have a vehicle that could launch on demand.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline docmordrid

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6334
  • Michigan
  • Liked: 4207
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #656 on: 05/25/2017 01:25 am »
Dated today

« Last Edit: 05/25/2017 01:26 am by docmordrid »
DM

Offline Lars-J

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6809
  • California
  • Liked: 8485
  • Likes Given: 5384
Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #657 on: 05/25/2017 01:30 am »
The cost target is $5M, which is about what an Electron launch costs. The upper stage is also roughly the size of the Electron booster. Seems like Boeing could get reasonably near the cost target if they really wanted.

It is suspiciously, isn't it? :)

We often think about reusability as being about reducing costs, what if the point of the XS-1 program is to show that it can be about something else - improving launch capability. As we watch RocketLab scrub for perfect weather, it certainly would be nice to have a vehicle that could launch on demand.

That may be true - but they are going to need a bunch of new RS-25 parts if they are going to field an operational system. But sadly this seems to be more a tech demonstrator that a real system. But maybe I should have known better. It just seems like 3-4 BE-3's would have been the slam dunk option. A low cost operational engine. Oh well.

Offline QuantumG

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9238
  • Australia
  • Liked: 4477
  • Likes Given: 1108
Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #658 on: 05/25/2017 01:32 am »
That may be true - but they are going to need a bunch of new RS-25 parts if they are going to field an operational system. But sadly this seems to be more a tech demonstrator that a real system. But maybe I should have known better. It just seems like 3-4 BE-3's would have been the slam dunk option. A low cost operational engine. Oh well.

I always got the feeling it was a tech demo... there's an X in the name.

I mean, it's going to be "operational" in the sense that you could do ops with it... just like the X-37. Presumably the idea is to get the military customers addicted to responsive launch.
« Last Edit: 05/25/2017 01:34 am by QuantumG »
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline Rocket Science

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10586
  • NASA Educator Astronaut Candidate Applicant 2002
  • Liked: 4548
  • Likes Given: 13523
Re: DARPA Experimental Spaceplane 1 (XS-1) Program
« Reply #659 on: 05/25/2017 01:53 am »
That may be true - but they are going to need a bunch of new RS-25 parts if they are going to field an operational system. But sadly this seems to be more a tech demonstrator that a real system. But maybe I should have known better. It just seems like 3-4 BE-3's would have been the slam dunk option. A low cost operational engine. Oh well.

I always got the feeling it was a tech demo... there's an X in the name.

I mean, it's going to be "operational" in the sense that you could do ops with it... just like the X-37. Presumably the idea is to get the military customers addicted to responsive launch.
Putting an "X" designation to a program always seems to excite congress and their willingness to fund it, go figure... ::)
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0