Author Topic: NASA Announces New Rover to Close Out Decade of New Missions  (Read 95912 times)

Online catdlr

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A partial video reply of the announcement:

Published on Dec 4, 2012 by VideoFromSpace
NASA will launch a new Mars science rover with new tools to study the Red Planet. Former astronaut and associate administrator of NASA's Science Mission Directorate John Grunsfeld outlines the next 8 years of Mars exploration.

Tony De La Rosa, ...I'm no Feline Dealer!! I move mountains.  but I'm better known for "I think it's highly sexual." Japanese to English Translation.

Offline spectre9

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I don't like it.

Big fan on Mars and sample return but I don't think it's worth it to pass up Europa.

Mars is now enjoying a 5th rover while Europa can't get one orbiter?

I hate it when one of my jaded rants comes true.

From the ESA service module thread.

Quote
Landing the rover is difficult and expensive the science is the juicy part. I think NASA should supply the technology but that doesn't mean they want to pay for it unfortunately.

Was it about the money?  ???

Offline Blackstar

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Possibility that Britain may contribute life detection instrument.

End press conference.

Pricked my ears up! Can't believe how much the UK is getting mentioned in space stuff lately! :)

Brilliant man. As soon as someone gets the recording of that up, it'll be used for a seperate article to the new rover announcement. Ran out of time for an expansive article tonight, but there's a lot of good stuff, especially relations to human exploration, in that event.

This was a large meeting of scientists where the head of NASA's Science Mission Directorate talked about a rover mission that was prioritized in the planetary science decadal survey. He spoke for 60 minutes and spent two minutes discussing human spaceflight. It's not a human spaceflight story.

Offline stone

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I wait for the announcement of opportunity. The instruments selected will make what mission will be like. 

Offline Blackstar

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I don't like it.

Big fan on Mars and sample return but I don't think it's worth it to pass up Europa.

Mars is now enjoying a 5th rover while Europa can't get one orbiter?

I hate it when one of my jaded rants comes true.

From the ESA service module thread.

Quote
Landing the rover is difficult and expensive the science is the juicy part. I think NASA should supply the technology but that doesn't mean they want to pay for it unfortunately.

Was it about the money?  ???

From 2009-2011 the U.S. science community, with substantial international participation, conducted an effort called the planetary science decadal survey. That report can be found on the internet. Mars Sample Return (the first part of which is a rover to cache samples for eventual return to Earth) and a Europa mission were ranked equally in terms of science priority. However, the rover mission could be reduced in size and done for under $2 billion. At the time, there was no way to do the Europa mission for that amount. So the decadal survey ranked the Mars rover first and the Europa mission second.

Since that time, NASA has sponsored three studies at JPL about how to do Europa missions. Those studies have beaten the cost of a Europa flyby (no longer an orbiter) in Jupiter orbit to something that is far more affordable. However, the fact remains that the decadal survey ranked the Mars mission first and the Europa mission second, and NASA is respecting that decision with this announcement.

Offline spectre9

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Yes Blackstar that is true but it's a message for ESA.

"You want a large payload on Mars, land it yourself. This technology is USA developed, we're mighty proud of it and we're not giving it away"

International cooperation? Who needs it when others can't replicate your technology?  ::)

Offline Blackstar

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Yes Blackstar that is true but it's a message for ESA.

"You want a large payload on Mars, land it yourself. This technology is USA developed, we're mighty proud of it and we're not giving it away"

That's not the message. If you want to find an implicit message in there, it is "We are not reliable enough as a partner." The US isn't denying them technology, but is apparently only going to cooperate at the instrument level, not the mission level.

Offline spectre9

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But it saves NASA money by not building the rover themselves?

Was it about the money or was it about ownership of the rover?

Offline Blackstar

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But it saves NASA money by not building the rover themselves?

Was it about the money or was it about ownership of the rover?

Huh?

If you are referring to the previous plans, they went something like this:

2005 or so:
NASA planning to build a rover called Mars Astrobiology Lab
ESA planning to build a rover called ExoMars

2006 or so:
NASA and ESA agree to cooperate on Mars

2008 or so:
NASA and ESA agree to use a single skycrane to land two rovers on Mars: ExoMars and a NASA rover called MAX-C

2010:
In order to fit two rovers on a single skycrane, you have to alter the backshell of the entry, descent and landing system. This, plus the engineering to lower two rovers to the ground, potentially blows the cost of the joint spacecraft through the roof

2011:
Planetary science decadal survey does NOT say "do not do a joint landing mission." It DOES say "Do MAX-C, but find a way so that the total cost to the U.S. does not exceed $2.5 billion (in 2015 dollars)."
Also (and this never really became public), ESA does a cost estimate for ExoMars and determines that it is going to cost a lot more money than they expected. (Surprise!)

Late 2011:
NASA comes up with a way to do MAX-C for under $1.5 billion.

Early 2012:
The Obama administration produces a budget that cancels MAX-C.

Spring 2012:
NASA says that they still want to do a Mars mission in 2018/2020. They create the Mars Program Planning Group to develop options. (Note that the planetary science decadal survey told NASA: "Do MAX-C, but there is no other option for Mars." Now it looks like NASA has created its own advisory group to come up with an option for Mars. Some people interpret this as ignoring the advice that they previously asked for.)

September 2012:
The Mars Program Planning Group issues its findings, which are: do a sample caching rover like that recommended in the planetary science decadal survey.

Today.

Offline robertross

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There is no Pu-238 funding at this time - I would like to ask Mr. Grunsfeld where he got that information.

Respectively,
Andrew Gasser
TEA Party in Space
It's probably in the budget request, which is what this whole announcement is predicated on.
This is quite the announcement!

I'm glad that the Pu-238 issue has been brought up - first thing I thought of.

It might be in the budget request, but my question would be: will they be able to generate enough in time, considering where they currently are?

I'm thinking if all goes well (and people are trained up in time), it shouldn't be an issue, but I don't have the time to review my notes from Dwayne's postings on the subject.

first update thread: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=16912.0
latest update thread: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=30183.0

2nd update to add: 4.8 kilograms PU-238 used in the Curiosity Mars Rover
« Last Edit: 12/05/2012 02:26 am by robertross »

Offline Tea Party Space Czar

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There is no Pu-238 funding at this time - I would like to ask Mr. Grunsfeld where he got that information.

Respectively,
Andrew Gasser
TEA Party in Space
It's probably in the budget request, which is what this whole announcement is predicated on.
This is quite the announcement!

I'm glad that the Pu-238 issue has been brought up - first thing I thought of.

It might be in the budget request, but my question would be: will they be able to generate enough in time, considering where they currently are?

I'm thinking if all goes well (and people are trained up in time), it shouldn't be an issue, but I don't have the time to review my notes from Dwayne's postings on the subject.

first update thread: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=16912.0
latest update thread: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=30183.0

2nd update to add: 4.8 kilograms PU-238 used in the Curiosity Mars Rover

It is brought up every year.  And it is killed in the house.  We never even make it to the senate.  We must finish ITAR this year so next year we can really, tighten the nut, on Pu-238.

We will be working closely with congress, the senate, our members, and people on this forum, as well as industry.  We have some friends who might be able to give this a much harder push.

We are playing with fire here - half-life - and such.  I am not the Pu-238 expert here but I do know a lot about the process.  It is going to be a lot of work.

Respectfully,
Andrew Gasser
TEA Party in Space

Offline Blackstar

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I didn't catch all of the Pu-238 discussion. However, they already have some Pu-238 in hand. That was going to go into an ASRG. I'm not sure how much they have (and the exact amount may be classified), but I vaguely remember that it was sufficient for two ASRGs. If they re-start Pu-238 production next year, they can realistically generate several more kilograms by 2020.

Now I'll take some guesses here: they could probably ramp up to 2.5 kilograms per-year by 2015. That means they could make maybe 10 kg by 2018, which is probably the latest that they could integrate it into the the MMRTG for the rover. So their plan might be to take some of what they have on hand, and manufacture some more, and then put that all in an MMRTG. (And it might be more complex than that, because some of the existing Pu-238 is old, so what they sometimes do is mix the new stuff in with the old, rather than have a combination of new bricks and old bricks--that way they have a single uniform batch that goes into the MMRTG.)

Now hopefully by the time they hold the next Discovery competition, which is probably in 2015 or so, they will also be able to offer an ASRG as government furnished equipment just like they did last round. So they'll need some more.

I think (all memory here) that our committee recommended in 2009 or so that they should ramp up to 5 kg per year, but they ultimately decided to go for 2.5 kg per year. They just did test samples in August. We'll see what they can do.
« Last Edit: 12/05/2012 03:32 am by Blackstar »

Offline Bubbinski

I had wondered if a rover could be built out of a set of spare parts for Curiosity.  Now I have my answer. 

Hoping there's some life detection stuff in it, would love to see even better cameras too.  And I'd love it if this new rover ends up in a landing site at least as spectacular if not better than Gale Crater.  Valles Marineris?  Or somewhere by a giant volcano?  Can they land by the polar caps? 

Looking forward to this, will try to attend the launch if at all possible.  I know 2020's a long way off, but....I'm excited. 
I'll even excitedly look forward to "flags and footprints" and suborbital missions. Just fly...somewhere.

Offline spectre9

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Ok Blackstar thanks for that.

Helpful to have all the facts laid out.

MPPG wants a caching rover even though the Obama administration has already cancelled one.

Why is it cheaper this time around?

Will it stay within the specified cap?

I haven't read the whole survey but I have looked through the important parts about mission recommendations.

Offline cleonard

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Why is it cheaper this time around?

Will it stay within the specified cap?


A big part of the cost is the engineering time.  There are thousands of pages of paper that will not need to be created.  Countless meetings will not be necessary.   It really adds up. 

If I read correctly, it looks like it will cost about a billion less for this partial remake of MSL.

Stay under the cost cap?  That's asking a lot, isn't it?  Who knows maybe they can pull it off.

Offline spectre9

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I've now had a look at the other 3 prospective MSL landing sites and I like Mawrth Vallis  8)

Nili Fossae has always been my favourite but I'm not sure NASA likes it.

The Mars team deserves this one with their tremendous public outreach for Curiosity. Well done to them.

I'll keep crowing about Europa and hopefully it's moved up in the 2020s.

I just stumbled on this link.

http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/landingsites/

Really goes to show how big Mars is and how much there is to explore.

I hope it gets a better name than the last one  :P

Offline Star One

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I've now had a look at the other 3 prospective MSL landing sites and I like Mawrth Vallis  8)

Nili Fossae has always been my favourite but I'm not sure NASA likes it.

The Mars team deserves this one with their tremendous public outreach for Curiosity. Well done to them.

I'll keep crowing about Europa and hopefully it's moved up in the 2020s.

I just stumbled on this link.

http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/landingsites/

Really goes to show how big Mars is and how much there is to explore.

I hope it gets a better name than the last one  :P


What's wrong with the name Curiosity then?

Be nice if after this they moved onto getting something to Titan, that must be a pressing scientific objective beyond Mars.

Offline Kaputnik

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Hoping there's some life detection stuff in it, would love to see even better cameras too.  And I'd love it if this new rover ends up in a landing site at least as spectacular if not better than Gale Crater.  Valles Marineris?  Or somewhere by a giant volcano?  Can they land by the polar caps? 

You want better cameras :o ? I'm absolutely blown away by what's being sent back from MSL. Have you downloaded any of the really big (10mb+) pans? The detail is staggering. Some of the shots of the rover itself are brilliant too. I don't think we need better cameras, personally...

On landing sites, I presume there are strong reasons to want to keep fairly close to the equator. Certainly not a polar site, anyway. This rover, from the sounds of it, will be meeting up with a sample return stage, which will want to launch into an equatorial orbit, or pretty close to one anyway. Nothing impossible about there being a plane change in there at some point, but it will add mass and therefore cost, and the further you get from the equatorial zone, the bigger than cost will be.
"I don't care what anything was DESIGNED to do, I care about what it CAN do"- Gene Kranz

Offline Paul Howard

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A partial video reply of the announcement:

Published on Dec 4, 2012 by VideoFromSpace
NASA will launch a new Mars science rover with new tools to study the Red Planet. Former astronaut and associate administrator of NASA's Science Mission Directorate John Grunsfeld outlines the next 8 years of Mars exploration.



Interesting, but he's not a great public speaker.

Offline Chris Bergin


Interesting, but he's not a great public speaker.

Mr Grunsfeld?

He's not presenting American Idol, he's the associate administrator of NASA's Science Mission Directorate John Grunsfeld, and a former Shuttle astronaut.

The man is a hero, so we'll have less of that nonsense.
« Last Edit: 12/05/2012 12:54 pm by Chris Bergin »
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