Author Topic: Indian Human Spaceflight Program  (Read 123603 times)

Offline vineethgk

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Re: Indian Human Spaceflight Program
« Reply #320 on: 06/10/2017 03:52 PM »
I would still like to know what the long-term goal of the indian piloted space programme is.   Right now it seems to be nothing more than orbiting a few people with no indications of anything beyond that - like work on orbital stations, etc.
All we know for sure is that ISRO has submitted a proposal in detail to the govt for its consideration and approval. There might be some long-term plans outlined in the proposal, but ISRO sources haven't revealed anything on it so far.

Offline sanman

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Re: Indian Human Spaceflight Program
« Reply #321 on: 06/10/2017 04:15 PM »
I would still like to know what the long-term goal of the indian piloted space programme is.   Right now it seems to be nothing more than orbiting a few people with no indications of anything beyond that - like work on orbital stations, etc.

Perhaps that case will have to be better articulated before the Indian govt will grant approval, since after all, questions like yours will definitely be asked in the parliament if the govt commits to that expenditure. There's already a debate in the Indian scientific community about whether HSF would be worthwhile.

- There's the idea that access to space inherently includes human access to it
- There's the space exploitation argument, which may still include talk about lunar He-3
- There's the argument that India must stay relevant in contributing to scientific & technological progress
- There are geopolitical concerns that other powers could get together to form clubs that shut out "have-nots"
- There's the "soft power" argument that flying with astronauts from other countries could be useful for diplomacy
- There's the market opportunity argument, that space tourism could be a revenue stream
There are probably some more, which I can't think of immediately offhand

To add to my previous post, note that the launch vehicle depicted in second pic is a GSLV-II (as was the plan originally), while it will instead be GSLV-III as per all recent statements from ISRO.

Yeah, those were the pics I was thinking of in regards to the flight configuration of the capsule - I just hadn't seen it on Mk3 - oh well, I suppose it's easy enough to transpose mentally. But like I said, the "fat boy" will look like it has a shrunken head. What's the weight of the capsule again?

Offline vineethgk

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Re: Indian Human Spaceflight Program
« Reply #322 on: 06/10/2017 04:18 PM »
The CARE capsule they tested in LVM3-X mission weighed 3.5 tonnes. An actual human-rated capsule might weigh different, and then there is the mass of the propulsion module to be added too to get the total mass of the spacecraft.
« Last Edit: 06/10/2017 04:20 PM by vineethgk »

Online RonM

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Re: Indian Human Spaceflight Program
« Reply #323 on: 06/10/2017 04:43 PM »
I would still like to know what the long-term goal of the indian piloted space programme is.   Right now it seems to be nothing more than orbiting a few people with no indications of anything beyond that - like work on orbital stations, etc.

Perhaps that case will have to be better articulated before the Indian govt will grant approval, since after all, questions like yours will definitely be asked in the parliament if the govt commits to that expenditure. There's already a debate in the Indian scientific community about whether HSF would be worthwhile.

- There's the idea that access to space inherently includes human access to it
- There's the space exploitation argument, which may still include talk about lunar He-3
- There's the argument that India must stay relevant in contributing to scientific & technological progress
- There are geopolitical concerns that other powers could get together to form clubs that shut out "have-nots"
- There's the "soft power" argument that flying with astronauts from other countries could be useful for diplomacy
- There's the market opportunity argument, that space tourism could be a revenue stream
There are probably some more, which I can't think of immediately offhand

Geopolitical concerns and soft power are important for a nation to be considered a world power. India has the fifth largest economy in the world, the third largest active military, and is part of the ballistic missile submarine club (only six countries). Adding human spaceflight would put India in an even more exclusive club as being the fourth nation with that capability (assuming USA can get back in the game with commercial crew).

Even if India doesn't build their own space station they can still be a valuable partner by flying crew to ISS or some other space station.

This can boost India's bid to become a member of the UN Security Council. International prestige is important. There's more to this than research and engineering.

Offline vyoma

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Re: Indian Human Spaceflight Program
« Reply #324 on: 06/11/2017 12:47 AM »
ISRO has released a research proposal for analyzing atmospheric re-entry of cryo stage and crew module as part of their RESPOND program dated March 2017:

Re-entry Trajectory Design and Analysis of Two Closely Following Bodies with a Possibility of Break ups (VSSC):
Re-entry trajectory design is complex as large amount of heat has to be dissipated and structural integrity of the body has to be ensured. Design becomes challenging when two bodies closely follow each other. This
typically occurs in one of the missions where crew module and cryostage enters the Earth’s atmosphere and are in close vicinity. The possibility of cryostage breakup during the re-entry is to be analyzed. Number of pieces
during the break-up is to be evaluated based upon detailed structural analysis of the cryo stage components. The survivability of these pieces and the effect of impact of these pieces on the ongoing crew module are to
be assessed.

Offline vyoma

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Re: Indian Human Spaceflight Program
« Reply #325 on: 06/11/2017 01:03 AM »
Few more HSP research areas:

Dynamic Modelling and Analysis of Human Body Exposed to Vibration Environment During Space Flight (VSSC)
In manned mission, human body may be exposed to various severe environments for a long time. This may be detrimental to life or may cause illness/fatigue to the body. One of the major environments is vibration.
Therefore, it is essential to study the influence of vibration on human body and necessary to find solutions to prevent such environment. To understand the effect of vibration on human body, it is required to generate
three-dimensional dynamic model of the human body and carryout dynamic analysis for human biomechanical responses. The human body shall be idealized using beam, spring and mass elements to represent the various
dynamics of the body. The model needs to be validated with the available literature / test results.

Development of Thermoplastic Elastometers for LCVG for Space Suit (VSSC):
Liquid Cooling & Ventilation Garment (LCVG) of space suit requires a "wicking material" which allows one-way water transport. Material usually used is a block copolymer based on polyethylene oxide (PEO) soft segment
and Polyether-ester block amide (PEBA) hard segment. The polymer should have high tear strength, toughness and water vapour transmission.

Ceramic Supported Lithium Hydroxide (LiOH) For Human Space Flight Programme (VSSC)
Lithium hydroxide is useful for the removal of carbon dioxide produced by human metabolism in the crew cabin of a manned spacecraft. For efficient absorption of carbon dioxide, surface area of LiOH particles should be
maximum. This can be achieved by supporting LiOH particles on a highly porous ceramic material.

Development of Catalysts for Splitting of Carbon Dioxide (VSSC):
Atmosphere of Mars is reported to comprise mainly (95%) of carbon dioxide. It is suggested that oxygen for propulsion (for return flight to Earth) can be produced in Mars by catalytic splitting of carbon dioxide into carbon
monoxide and oxygen. Another method is to reduce carbon dioxide using hydrogen (transported from Earth) to produce oxygen and methane. Development of catalysts for these reactions and optimisation of reaction conditions will go a long way in realizing Mars explorations.


Offline sanman

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Re: Indian Human Spaceflight Program
« Reply #326 on: 06/11/2017 01:24 AM »
ISRO has released a research proposal for analyzing atmospheric re-entry of cryo stage and crew module as part of their RESPOND program dated March 2017:

Re-entry Trajectory Design and Analysis of Two Closely Following Bodies with a Possibility of Break ups (VSSC):
Re-entry trajectory design is complex as large amount of heat has to be dissipated and structural integrity of the body has to be ensured. Design becomes challenging when two bodies closely follow each other. This
typically occurs in one of the missions where crew module and cryostage enters the Earth’s atmosphere and are in close vicinity.
The possibility of cryostage breakup during the re-entry is to be analyzed. Number of pieces
during the break-up is to be evaluated based upon detailed structural analysis of the cryo stage components. The survivability of these pieces and the effect of impact of these pieces on the ongoing crew module are to
be assessed.

Why would cryo stage and capsule enter in close proximity - you mean like an abort scenario? Other than this, why would they re-enter in close proximity?


Development of Catalysts for Splitting of Carbon Dioxide (VSSC):
Atmosphere of Mars is reported to comprise mainly (95%) of carbon dioxide. It is suggested that oxygen for propulsion (for return flight to Earth) can be produced in Mars by catalytic splitting of carbon dioxide into carbon
monoxide and oxygen. Another method is to reduce carbon dioxide using hydrogen (transported from Earth) to produce oxygen and methane. Development of catalysts for these reactions and optimisation of reaction conditions will go a long way in realizing Mars explorations.

Why do they envision hydrogen transported from Earth, when there's water on Mars? Is this maybe for some mini-lander type of scenario where it can't really hunt around for water, and so you just bring some onboard hydrogen with you to do a Sabatier or Water Gas-Shift reaction?

Offline vyoma

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Re: Indian Human Spaceflight Program
« Reply #327 on: 06/11/2017 01:56 AM »
ISRO has released a research proposal for analyzing atmospheric re-entry of cryo stage and crew module as part of their RESPOND program dated March 2017:

Re-entry Trajectory Design and Analysis of Two Closely Following Bodies with a Possibility of Break ups (VSSC):
Re-entry trajectory design is complex as large amount of heat has to be dissipated and structural integrity of the body has to be ensured. Design becomes challenging when two bodies closely follow each other. This
typically occurs in one of the missions where crew module and cryostage enters the Earth’s atmosphere and are in close vicinity.
The possibility of cryostage breakup during the re-entry is to be analyzed. Number of pieces
during the break-up is to be evaluated based upon detailed structural analysis of the cryo stage components. The survivability of these pieces and the effect of impact of these pieces on the ongoing crew module are to
be assessed.

Why would cryo stage and capsule enter in close proximity - you mean like an abort scenario? Other than this, why would they re-enter in close proximity?

I just now noticed that these research proposals were there in 2013 RESPOND program as well. Looks like it was for LVM3-X1/CARE mission where there was a possibility of dummy cryostage and crew module re-entering atmosphere in close proximity.

Here's an old post about it: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=15187.msg1146807#msg1146807
« Last Edit: 06/11/2017 01:56 AM by vyoma »

Offline sanman

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Re: Indian Human Spaceflight Program
« Reply #328 on: 06/21/2017 03:42 PM »
Russia has said it may train Indian astronauts:

http://tass.com/science/952522

Quote
Russia may help India to train astronauts, deputy PM says

Science & Space June 21, 8:15 UTC+3
The deputy prime minister believes it's time for a more large-scale cooperation in the space sphere with India

NOVOSIBIRSK, June 21. /TASS/. Russia may help India to train its astronauts in the future, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said on Wednesday.

"In prospect, it is possible to train Indian astronauts on the basis of our center of Roscosmos," Rogozin told the meeting of a bilateral high-level commission for cooperation in advanced technologies for military and civilian purposes.

Rogozin also said he informed India’s Finance Minister, Minister of Defense and Minister of Corporate Affairs Arun Jaitley about the prospects of Russia’s manned spacecraft and the development of the International Space Station (ISS).

"But we should see the prospect after 2024," Rogozin said. "I believe we could discuss cooperation between Russia and India in this area as part of the commission." He explained that it is also possible to gain profit due to creating new generation spacecraft for the Earth’s remote sensing, navigation, communications and researches of the far space.

The deputy prime minister noted that India "has made serious headway in this area" and Russia is carefully watching the success of its Indian partners. "We believe it’s time for a more large-scale cooperation in this area," he stressed.


So that sounds like a useful idea - since the Indian govt is hesitant on going whole-hog in formally announcing a Human Spaceflight Program (due to the sizeable pricetag of Rs.40,000Cr), then why not reach out to the space programs of more advanced countries, like Roskosmos and NASA, by seeking to contract with them for the opportunity to train through their facilities? This would allow India continue forward progress on Human Spaceflight without suffering needless delays due to domestic politics, and it will allow the agencies of other countries to defray their own costs while also helping to shape and harmonize the practices of newcomers like India with respect to Human Spaceflight.

Space is inevitably going to involve more and more international cooperation and coordination, so joint training could play a useful role in creating necessary familiarity with each other's practices, as well as promoting common best practices, etc.
« Last Edit: 06/21/2017 03:44 PM by sanman »

Offline sanjaykumar

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Re: Indian Human Spaceflight Program
« Reply #329 on: 06/23/2017 04:35 PM »
Quote
So that sounds like a useful idea - since the Indian govt is hesitant on going whole-hog in formally announcing a Human Spaceflight Program (due to the sizeable pricetag of Rs.40,000Cr),

40,000 Cr  spend would be peanuts for GOI.  At 2017 budget the infrastructure spend  alone is Rs 3,96,135 crore.
It is all about what benefits a human inside a drum  in orbit would provide for the amount spent.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/budget-2017-10-measures-to-boost-indias-infrastructure/articleshow/56909732.cms





Quote
Space is inevitably going to involve more and more international cooperation and coordination, so joint training could play a useful role in creating necessary familiarity with each other's practices, as well as promoting common best practices, etc.

An regarding space cooperation...  all finally boils down to business and hard $$$.  With the Cryo engine technology  transfer fiasco with USSR - Russia - USA,  Chandrayaan -2 Russian Rover project flip flops,
and .... Aah  do you remember the early Insat being hit by crane ? and solar panels getting stuck in orbit....

ISRO would take space cooperation with pinch of salt.
« Last Edit: 06/23/2017 04:47 PM by sanjaykumar »

Offline sanman

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Re: Indian Human Spaceflight Program
« Reply #330 on: 06/23/2017 05:35 PM »
40,000 Cr  spend would be peanuts for GOI.  At 2017 budget the infrastructure spend  alone is Rs 3,96,135 crore.
It is all about what benefits a human inside a drum  in orbit would provide for the amount spent.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/budget-2017-10-measures-to-boost-indias-infrastructure/articleshow/56909732.cms


Don't just think of the human in the drum - think of what lies beyond that - any manned program has to start out with a human in a drum. Think of the greater "cis-lunar economy" that's likely to develop in the future - this will likely involve some manned activity/presence - and how the more you lag behind, the harder it is to nudge your way in. India built 3 bases in Antarctica over the years, and has promoted Antarctic tourism - so likewise in the same vein, what's wrong with positioning itself for future space tourism, where it may be able to leverage cost advantages? The space industry is a very value-added industry, constantly pushing the bounds of technological advancement and attracting the best and brightest minds in the process, and space travelers may yet become the most abundant payload opportunity ever seen.


Quote
An regarding space cooperation...  all finally boils down to business and hard $$$.  With the Cryo engine technology  transfer fiasco with USSR - Russia - USA,  Chandrayaan -2 Russian Rover project flip flops,
and .... Aah  do you remember the early Insat being hit by crane ? and solar panels getting stuck in orbit....

ISRO would take space cooperation with pinch of salt.

Well, teething/growing pains often happen in any sector - but manned spaceflight isn't considered a militarily sensitive area. And the more players there are, the more options/alternatives there are for achieving forward progress.

Collaborations in space are a way of demonstration/earning technical credibility, and anchoring international cooperation to higher/loftier goals like furthering human expansion into the cosmos.
« Last Edit: 06/23/2017 05:57 PM by sanman »

Offline sanman

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Re: Indian Human Spaceflight Program
« Reply #331 on: 07/16/2017 05:01 PM »
ISRO Chief says satellites are the priority right now, not human space flight:

http://idrw.org/satellites-are-our-priority-now-not-human-space-flight-isro-chief/

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