Author Topic: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?  (Read 48089 times)

Offline SpacexULA

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #40 on: 08/01/2011 09:39 PM »
That's the reason I was sugjesting the A300-600ST Beluga it can use standard runways, and the stages of a rocket sans engines are not that much heavier than aircraft frames.

It still needs up to 3,000 feet of runway they don't have.
http://www.fltplan.com/AirportInformation/HHR.htm

Runway Identification: 07/25
Length: 4956 ft
Width: 100 ft
Surface: CONCRETE-GOOD CONDITION
Edge lights: Medium Intensity

Almost 5,000 feet?

Is that enough? :)
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Online Robotbeat

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #41 on: 08/01/2011 10:12 PM »
Of course, you also would have to fly it to Texas and back to wherever you're flying, at least for the first few flights.
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Offline Lee Jay

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #42 on: 08/01/2011 10:25 PM »
That's the reason I was sugjesting the A300-600ST Beluga it can use standard runways, and the stages of a rocket sans engines are not that much heavier than aircraft frames.

It still needs up to 3,000 feet of runway they don't have.
http://www.fltplan.com/AirportInformation/HHR.htm

Runway Identification: 07/25
Length: 4956 ft
Width: 100 ft
Surface: CONCRETE-GOOD CONDITION
Edge lights: Medium Intensity

Almost 5,000 feet?

Is that enough? :)


http://www.azfreighters.com/planes/a300bel.pdf

"Runway required T/O 2 600 m (8 530)"

Offline go4mars

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #43 on: 08/01/2011 11:39 PM »
No.  A 6 m stage would weigh a lot more than 20 tons.  I think SpaceX would need more than one Jess Heavy Lifter.  Falcon 9 has a first stage fueled to dry weight ratio of just over 20.  Scale that up to get a rough idea.  Jess Heavy Lifter is apparently waiting on an installment of $100 million.  Given the times, unless Elon is willing to invest with Pete Jess and their partner Boeing, the scenario is unlikely.  Maybe after Tesla begins to pay out dividends neutral bouyancy airships will be examined.  Unless the timing of JHL availability coincides with the need (which is possible) it's more likely that they'll do it somewhere with easy access to a coast.   

Am I doing something wrong?
A wet Falcon 9 weights roughly 330,000 kg
So total Falcon 9 dry weight would be around 20,000 kg?

We are discussing transportations issues with a highway-oversized diameter (like 6 meter or larger diameter stage).  The falcon 9 or Falcon Heavy stages are only 3.66 meters in diameter.  Even if you assumed that they were the same length, the extra surface area of the larger diameter tanks, and extra/beefier engines/pumps/plumbing, would push it above 25000 kg.   (pi)*(r^2)*h.  plus extras like bigger common bulkhead, etc. 

For F9/FH stages, they throw them on a low boy trailer (now with aerodymanic ends and a frame for protective black cloth), and send it down the highway.  No need for really fancy/unique transport solutions with F9.  It's diameter was designed with that in mind.
« Last Edit: 08/01/2011 11:44 PM by go4mars »
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Offline kevin-rf

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #44 on: 08/02/2011 01:13 AM »
If one really wanted to airlift a giga falcon from the factory to the port, one could keep the dry weight down by shipping the engines separate from the tanks.

Just a thought.

The other obvious answer, what are noise regulations in Hawthorne again?

 
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Offline RocketEconomist327

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #45 on: 08/02/2011 02:33 AM »
Really hard to see SpaceX moving unless two things happen:

1)  Taxes really start crimping Elon's style
2)  Some state offers the candy store to Elon.
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Offline docmordrid

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #46 on: 08/02/2011 02:37 AM »
Really hard to see SpaceX moving unless two things happen:

1)  Taxes really start crimping Elon's style

California? With their dysfunctional budget process?

- check
Quote
2)  Some state offers the candy store to Elon.

Texas, who's already sucking businesses out of Califlakey at Warp 9?

- check
« Last Edit: 08/02/2011 02:38 AM by docmordrid »
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Offline Lee Jay

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #47 on: 08/02/2011 03:26 AM »
I'm not saying that's necessarily practical or what they are planning, I'm just saying you'd be surprised what size equipment can be moved over the roads if you have the time and money to get it done.

I've looked for this for years.  I remember reading about it at the time as being one of the largest, if not the largest item ever moved over a US highway.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/556186/Monster-rig-creeps-slowly-en-route-to-Nevada.html
http://www.eatonmetal.com/Autoclv_files/P1_75w96.jpg

"James T. Jensen, executive vice president of Savage, said the vessel is 76 feet long, 22 feet wide, 19 feet high and weighs in at 950,000 pounds."

22 feet is 6.7 meters.
« Last Edit: 08/02/2011 03:30 AM by Lee Jay »

Offline go4mars

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #48 on: 08/02/2011 04:12 AM »
I've looked for this for years.  I remember reading about it at the time as being one of the largest, if not the largest item ever moved over a US highway.

I think moving the Spruce Goose beats that. 
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Offline corrodedNut

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #49 on: 08/03/2011 02:50 PM »
Garrett Reisman talks about SpaceX infrastructure in Florida, including possible future production facilities:



At about 1:22:00 he says: "...if given the opportunity to compete for the super launch, the heavy lift vehicle, we have preliminary plans to build those tanks...right next to our facility at the launch pad"

It's hard to say exactly what he means by "right next to", but I thinks it's safe to say it's not California or Texas.

Sounds like they want to keep engine production at Hawthorne, but build larger (than current) tanks as close to the pad as possible.

These are "preliminary plans", of course.
« Last Edit: 08/03/2011 02:55 PM by corrodedNut »

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #50 on: 08/03/2011 04:00 PM »
It's hard to say exactly what he means by "right next to",

How about location in the area that would allow easy transport to the pad? 

There are industrial parks all over the area.

Doing it on the range and having to stop production every time ULA decides to run up the flag seems a bit much.

I hear Playalinda would have a great view ;)
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Offline simonbp

Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #51 on: 08/03/2011 04:36 PM »
But in any information on other limitations?

The Hawthorne facility was previously used by Vought to build 747 fuselage panels. So, whatever the largest panel piece of a 747 is would be an empirical restriction.

Also, a suggestion for how they might do a super-heavy: do all the forming and machining in Hawthorne, and then ship the panels to Florida for final assembly...
« Last Edit: 08/03/2011 04:39 PM by simonbp »

Offline go4mars

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #52 on: 08/03/2011 04:53 PM »
It's hard to say exactly what he means by "right next to", but I thinks it's safe to say it's not California or Texas.

Thanks for the video! 

He explicitly says "Here in Florida" in the context of making tanks for the heavy lift (F-XX type) vehicle.  So not Cali or Texas.  Probably not on the range (as Jim says).  But where would a logical place be?  Near Titusville somewhere?  Based on that video, it appears SpaceX does not plan to buy or lease Michoud. 
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Offline Jim

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #53 on: 08/03/2011 04:55 PM »
Bridges would be issues for Titusville.  Maybe KSC.

Offline Lobo

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #54 on: 08/03/2011 05:39 PM »
It's hard to say exactly what he means by "right next to",

How about location in the area that would allow easy transport to the pad? 

There are industrial parks all over the area.

Doing it on the range and having to stop production every time ULA decides to run up the flag seems a bit much.

I hear Playalinda would have a great view ;)

Yea, I'd probably guess by "right next to the pad", they mean someplace in Florida near that pad, that could be easily transported to the pad.
Also, if they build FX cores at some point, those might be launching from KSC rather than LC-40.  So maybe a new facility somewhere near the space coast, but so that it could also be barged up to the turning bay by KSC. It could go to the VAB or to LC-40 from there.  (I'm not familiar enough with the geography of the area to know if there's a place you could unload a barge closer to LC-40, or if you could truck 6m cores from a nearby facility to LC-40 or KSC.) 

Also, back in Hawthorne, I'd imagine not only would they continue to do engines and the capsules, but continue the 3.6m cores for F9 and FH at Vandenberg, as well as any launches of them at the Cape.  A new facility in Florida would probably just have the hardware to bend metal for the 6m cores.  (although, I suppose they could make it so they can do both 3.6m cores and 6m cores in Florida for all Cape launches, and then continue the 3.6m cores for VAFB launches.  That'd cut down on their logistics.  Engines are pretty easy to truck to they'd probably have all engine production consolidated in Hawthorne.)

Texas would actually work to if they had easy coast access, so they could load their cores on a barge and ship them to the Cape.  It's a longer float, but probably not prohibitively so.

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #55 on: 08/03/2011 06:13 PM »
SpaceX future assembly facilities options seems to be in flux. Guess it all depending if SpaceX wants to tackle the transport issues around the Florida space facilities for a Falcon X or Falcon XX LV.

It might be easier and cheaper to set up a new launch site and an new  HLV assembly facility in South Texas with a dedicated road or railroad link.

Anyone have any idea if a Merlin 2 size engine can be truck from Hawthorne to Texas and Florida assembled?

Offline Jim

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #56 on: 08/03/2011 06:21 PM »

It might be easier and cheaper to set up a new launch site and an new  HLV assembly facility in South Texas

The launch site in TX is yet to seen as viable.

Offline Halidon

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #57 on: 08/03/2011 08:12 PM »
Anyone have any idea if a Merlin 2 size engine can be truck from Hawthorne to Texas and Florida assembled?
If it's approximated F-1 size then yes, probably.

Offline baldusi

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #58 on: 08/03/2011 08:43 PM »
Anyone have any idea if a Merlin 2 size engine can be truck from Hawthorne to Texas and Florida assembled?
If it's approximated F-1 size then yes, probably.
You can always ship the Engine and the nozzle extension separated. You put the engine horizontal and the nozzle extension vertical and you can get quite a bit of engine. You only need that the regen part of the engine be no more than 12.5ft wide, and the nozzle extension no more than 12.5ft long. If will be oversized on the width sense. But that's a lot more manageable.

Offline Prober

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #59 on: 08/03/2011 10:58 PM »
Garrett Reisman talks about SpaceX infrastructure in Florida, including possible future production facilities:



At about 1:22:00 he says: "...if given the opportunity to compete for the super launch, the heavy lift vehicle, we have preliminary plans to build those tanks...right next to our facility at the launch pad"

It's hard to say exactly what he means by "right next to", but I thinks it's safe to say it's not California or Texas.

Sounds like they want to keep engine production at Hawthorne, but build larger (than current) tanks as close to the pad as possible.

These are "preliminary plans", of course.

Watched part of this and got impression SpaceX was talking about the hanger they just leased.  But will have to check into the rest later.
 
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