Author Topic: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?  (Read 48270 times)

Offline baldusi

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #20 on: 07/31/2011 11:40 PM »
A stock An-225 has demonstrated carrying a 7.75m wide 58m long Energyia 2nd stage. It weighted some 78tn, but the Anatov could carry 150tn easily. But how much does it costs? Wikipedia says that one transport was Euro 266k in 2008. So let's say that it costs 500k. If we talk about a Falcon X class, the launch cost should be around 150M, so a flight to Stennis for acceptance (or other test stand), plus another flight to KSC that's a 0.7% of the launch cost in transport. But they would keep the old factory, so no relocation cost. And less overhead. I guess airlift is not a bad option for a low rate of flight. It might also happen, that the cost of that flight was less because the An-225 is based of Ukraine, so the first airlift was less. But if it has to come to the US, it might cost more like 1M, in which case putting a new factory close to a port might not be a bad idea, since tooling has to be new, anyways.

Offline Lee Jay

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #21 on: 08/01/2011 12:03 AM »
A stock An-225 has demonstrated carrying a 7.75m wide 58m long Energyia 2nd stage. It weighted some 78tn, but the Anatov could carry 150tn easily. But how much does it costs? Wikipedia says that one transport was Euro 266k in 2008. So let's say that it costs 500k. If we talk about a Falcon X class, the launch cost should be around 150M, so a flight to Stennis for acceptance (or other test stand), plus another flight to KSC that's a 0.7% of the launch cost in transport. But they would keep the old factory, so no relocation cost. And less overhead. I guess airlift is not a bad option for a low rate of flight. It might also happen, that the cost of that flight was less because the An-225 is based of Ukraine, so the first airlift was less. But if it has to come to the US, it might cost more like 1M, in which case putting a new factory close to a port might not be a bad idea, since tooling has to be new, anyways.

Yeah, but where would you take it off from?  The runway at the facility is nowhere near long enough.  So you'd have to transport over-land anyway.

Offline SpacexULA

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #22 on: 08/01/2011 12:14 AM »
Yeah, but where would you take it off from?  The runway at the facility is nowhere near long enough.  So you'd have to transport over-land anyway.

That's the reason I was sugjesting the A300-600ST Beluga it can use standard runways, and the stages of a rocket sans engines are not that much heavier than aircraft frames.

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Offline Lee Jay

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #23 on: 08/01/2011 12:37 AM »
Yeah, but where would you take it off from?  The runway at the facility is nowhere near long enough.  So you'd have to transport over-land anyway.

That's the reason I was sugjesting the A300-600ST Beluga it can use standard runways, and the stages of a rocket sans engines are not that much heavier than aircraft frames.

It still needs up to 3,000 feet of runway they don't have.

Offline jabe

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #24 on: 08/01/2011 12:39 AM »
so...how easy would it be to pack up and move to florida? :)
jb

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #25 on: 08/01/2011 01:39 AM »
Then again, if they do build in Texas they could barge big stages to the Cape.

If SpaceX builds in South Texas, figure they would do both a new launchpad and a new production facility. So it would only take a short road trip through non-populated area to a pad from production facility (probably near Corpus Christi).

Offline DaveH62

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #26 on: 08/01/2011 03:04 AM »
Yeah, but where would you take it off from?  The runway at the facility is nowhere near long enough.  So you'd have to transport over-land anyway.

That's the reason I was sugjesting the A300-600ST Beluga it can use standard runways, and the stages of a rocket sans engines are not that much heavier than aircraft frames.

It still needs up to 3,000 feet of runway they don't have.
How heavy would this be? Could you use an airship to transport from Hawthorne to a port location? Perhaps ridiculous using the oldest flying technology to transport the most modern, but could you lift and control a short duration flight to deploy a 25 ft wide rocket?
If nothing else, it would look awesome.

Offline dragon44

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #27 on: 08/01/2011 03:17 AM »
so...how easy would it be to pack up and move to florida? :)
jb

I know your comment was only half serious, but I can see tank, dome and fairing fabrication over 4m moving to FL or TX. But I'm guessing Hawthorne would continue to do Dragon, Merlins, Dracos, etc. Too much talent at Hawthorne to lose half of them with a factory move.

Offline Jim

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #28 on: 08/01/2011 11:05 AM »
so...how easy would it be to pack up and move to florida? :)
jb

I know your comment was only half serious, but I can see tank, dome and fairing fabrication over 4m moving to FL or TX. But I'm guessing Hawthorne would continue to do Dragon, Merlins, Dracos, etc. Too much talent at Hawthorne to lose half of them with a factory move.

Not an issue.  Other vehicles have moved.  Shuttle from Huntington Beach to Houston.  Delta II to Decatur.  Atlas from San Diego to Denver to Decatur.

Offline go4mars

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #29 on: 08/01/2011 05:11 PM »
3 JHL-40's could do it. 
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Offline jabe

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #30 on: 08/01/2011 06:09 PM »
I figure if push comes to shove and logistics say move to Florida I'd be surprised if they don't... either that or double the overhead and have to assembly plants... ;)
jb

Offline go4mars

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #31 on: 08/01/2011 06:33 PM »
Any chance Michoud will go up for sale/auction (assuming SLS gets the axe)? 
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Offline krytek

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #32 on: 08/01/2011 06:47 PM »
I like the helicopter concept. If you can use something like that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-26 
Obviously lifting huge light structures is not easy.

Offline Prober

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #33 on: 08/01/2011 07:28 PM »
Any chance Michoud will go up for sale/auction (assuming SLS gets the axe)? 

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Offline krytek

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #34 on: 08/01/2011 08:01 PM »
I'd like to expand on my previous post, since upon further research this seems really possible.

The Mi-26 is available for rent in the US and the pricing is reasonable.
It seems it's lift capacity is in the range of what is needed.
It probably at least can transport the stage from factory to barge.

This pic below really convinced me.

Offline go4mars

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #35 on: 08/01/2011 08:27 PM »
I'd like to expand on my previous post, since upon further research this seems really possible.

The Mi-26 is available for rent in the US and the pricing is reasonable.
It seems it's lift capacity is in the range of what is needed.
It probably at least can transport the stage from factory to barge.

This pic below really convinced me.

No.  A 6 m stage would weigh a lot more than 20 tons.  I think SpaceX would need more than one Jess Heavy Lifter.  Falcon 9 has a first stage fueled to dry weight ratio of just over 20.  Scale that up to get a rough idea.  Jess Heavy Lifter is apparently waiting on an installment of $100 million.  Given the times, unless Elon is willing to invest with Pete Jess and their partner Boeing, the scenario is unlikely.  Maybe after Tesla begins to pay out dividends neutral bouyancy airships will be examined.  Unless the timing of JHL availability coincides with the need (which is possible) it's more likely that they'll do it somewhere with easy access to a coast.   
« Last Edit: 08/01/2011 08:58 PM by go4mars »
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Offline mrhuggy

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #36 on: 08/01/2011 08:54 PM »
The most sensible place to build Big stages would be next to the launch pad ie Build at the cape. Theres plenty of room, a good work force and minimal transport problems. The engines, avionics etc could be shipped in from hawthorne.
Chris Hugman
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Offline Jim

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #37 on: 08/01/2011 08:57 PM »
The most sensible place to build Big stages would be next to the launch pad ie Build at the cape. Theres plenty of room, a good work force and minimal transport problems. The engines, avionics etc could be shipped in from hawthorne.
No, it is a bad place for it.  There are frequent shutdowns due to launches and other hazardous ops

Offline krytek

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #38 on: 08/01/2011 09:18 PM »
I'd like to expand on my previous post, since upon further research this seems really possible.

The Mi-26 is available for rent in the US and the pricing is reasonable.
It seems it's lift capacity is in the range of what is needed.
It probably at least can transport the stage from factory to barge.

This pic below really convinced me.

No.  A 6 m stage would weigh a lot more than 20 tons.  I think SpaceX would need more than one Jess Heavy Lifter.  Falcon 9 has a first stage fueled to dry weight ratio of just over 20.  Scale that up to get a rough idea.  Jess Heavy Lifter is apparently waiting on an installment of $100 million.  Given the times, unless Elon is willing to invest with Pete Jess and their partner Boeing, the scenario is unlikely.  Maybe after Tesla begins to pay out dividends neutral bouyancy airships will be examined.  Unless the timing of JHL availability coincides with the need (which is possible) it's more likely that they'll do it somewhere with easy access to a coast.   

Am I doing something wrong?
A wet Falcon 9 weights roughly 330,000 kg
So total Falcon 9 dry weight would be around 20,000 kg?


BTW, the Mi-26 can probably lift up to 25 tonnes.

Offline Lee Jay

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #39 on: 08/01/2011 09:20 PM »
BTW, the Mi-26 can probably lift up to 25 tonnes.


Don't forget to include rigging and support structure (could be several tons).

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