Danny Dot - 4/6/2007 11:33 AMHere is a link to an interesting Apollo Contingency paper written in 1965.http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19770078693_1977078693.pdfThe thought was if the Saturn 5 was not man rated in time, the crew would go up on a Saturn 1B and transfer to the lunar vehicle launched, unmanned, on the Saturn 5.Danny Deger
Kaputnik - 4/6/2007 5:41 PMI thought a 1b couldn't orbit the fully fuelled CSM? Payload was only c.18t as opposed to the c.25t of the fully fuelled CSM.Maybe a modern day equivalent could be that an Ares-V be used to do an all-up mission as a contingency in case the Ares-1 cannot be man-rated!(yes, I'm joking...)
Danny Dot - 4/6/2007 6:21 PMQuoteKaputnik - 4/6/2007 5:41 PMI thought a 1b couldn't orbit the fully fuelled CSM? Payload was only c.18t as opposed to the c.25t of the fully fuelled CSM.Maybe a modern day equivalent could be that an Ares-V be used to do an all-up mission as a contingency in case the Ares-1 cannot be man-rated!(yes, I'm joking...)The CSM on the Saturn 1B was loaded for only 5,000 ft/sec worth of fuel. The Saturn V would carry up the fully loaded CSM that would go to the moon. The CSM launced on the 1B did not go to the moon.Danny Deger
dvandorn - 5/6/2007 12:33 PM (In the case of an early-out shutdown of the S-IVB on ASTP, the procedure would have been to use the CSM's RCS to try and drag the whole stack into an orbit that would maintain long enough for T&D with the DM.)I don't think so. If the S4B shutdown early, the SPS would be used to get into an orbit.......assuming that enough fuel remained for a de-orbit burn In any case, an early S$B shutdown would doom the mission. The Docking Module was in the SLA adapter, and there would be no way for the CSM's RCS thrusters to drag a partially loaded S4B stage, a SLA/DM, and a CSM into any kind of an orbit. :frown:
Kaputnik - 4/6/2007 4:41 PMI thought a 1b couldn't orbit the fully fuelled CSM? Payload was only c.18t as opposed to the c.25t of the fully fuelled CSM.
CFE - 6/6/2007 1:21 AMQuoteKaputnik - 4/6/2007 4:41 PMI thought a 1b couldn't orbit the fully fuelled CSM? Payload was only c.18t as opposed to the c.25t of the fully fuelled CSM.I've been pondering this one as well, and some of the subsequent comments in this thread have confirmed some (but not all) of my suspicions. Encyclopedia Astronautica gives the 18.6 metric ton figure for the Saturn IB, yet the Skylab CSM's were all around 20 metric tons (and launched into a more demanding orbit than the 185 km, 28-deg reference orbit given for the Saturn IB.) Did the Skylab CSMs perform a burn of the SPS engine before reaching orbit, or is Encyclopedia Astronautica low-balling the performance of the Saturn IB?Obviously, the option of a sub-orbital SPS burn wasn't an option during ASTP due to the need to retrieve the docking module from the expended S-IVB. In that case, the combined mass of the ASTP CSM & docking module was only 16.8 metric tons, which would fit within the performance figures given on Encyclopedia Astronautica.
Big RI Joe - 5/6/2007 5:30 PMQuotedvandorn - 5/6/2007 12:33 PM (In the case of an early-out shutdown of the S-IVB on ASTP, the procedure would have been to use the CSM's RCS to try and drag the whole stack into an orbit that would maintain long enough for T&D with the DM.)I don't think so. If the S4B shutdown early, the SPS would be used to get into an orbit.......assuming that enough fuel remained for a de-orbit burn In any case, an early S$B shutdown would doom the mission. The Docking Module was in the SLA adapter, and there would be no way for the CSM's RCS thrusters to drag a partially loaded S4B stage, a SLA/DM, and a CSM into any kind of an orbit. :frown:
dvandorn - 5/6/2007 12:33 PM (In the case of an early-out shutdown of the S-IVB on ASTP, the procedure would have been to use the CSM's RCS to try and drag the whole stack into an orbit that would maintain long enough for T&D with the DM.)
DMeader - 8/6/2007 2:51 PMHow would they have handled the crew transfer from the CSM the crew launched in to the empty one on the Saturn V stack? I don't see how two command modules could be configured to dock with the one completing the mission still able to dock with the LM. Equip the passive CM with a drogue then after docking transfer the probe to the passive CM? Or, would it have been via EVA? That might have been a bit hairy.
DMeader - 8/6/2007 5:42 PMHow would the crew in the manned CM command the probe in the unmanned CM to retract to establish a hard dock? Or would that come from the ground?