Author Topic: Inducing sleep-like torpor for hibernation during transit to Mars.  (Read 28396 times)

Offline guckyfan

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7438
  • Germany
  • Liked: 2332
  • Likes Given: 2891
I would have thought that lowering the metabolic rate would increase the harm from radiation, same amount of radiation but depressed bodies ability to repair radiation damage.
I heard, that the greatest risk of radiation is with cells in mitosis. Mitosis would be reduced in low metabolic rate so that may offset the added risk somewhat. I don't know but would still think the radiation risk is increased even with increased shielding.


Offline docmordrid

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6334
  • Michigan
  • Liked: 4207
  • Likes Given: 2
Hibernation and Torpor in Mammals and Birds (Charles P. Lyman, Academic Press 1983)

Link.

p. 203 indicates hibernation may be radioprotective.

OTOH, this Nature article speculates about gene thetapies that may mitigate radiation damage,

http://www.nature.com/gt/journal/v6/n9/full/3301005a.html

And DARPA has come up with a mixture of bactericidal/permeability-increasing protein (BPI) and antibiotics that increases the survival from acute radiation syndrome if taken within 12 hrs of exposure,

http://www.darpa.mil/NewsEvents/Releases/2012/01/04.aspx
« Last Edit: 02/20/2015 07:07 pm by CuddlyRocket »
DM

Offline ChrisWilson68

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5266
  • Sunnyvale, CA
  • Liked: 4992
  • Likes Given: 6459
Personally, I would rather stay awake. I don't need much space.

Same here!  Why would I want to give up six months of my life to sleep?  As long as I have a laptop and I can use it to code, read, and watch old movies, I'll be happy.  Also, I'd spend a part of every day thinking, "Wow, I'm really in space, on my way to Mars!" -- wouldn't want to miss out on a day of that.

Offline Patchouli

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4490
  • Liked: 253
  • Likes Given: 457

Same here!  Why would I want to give up six months of my life to sleep?  As long as I have a laptop and I can use it to code, read, and watch old movies, I'll be happy.  Also, I'd spend a part of every day thinking, "Wow, I'm really in space, on my way to Mars!" -- wouldn't want to miss out on a day of that.


Same here besides the mission can perform some science along the way.

As for movies they don't even have to be old ones as new media can be transmitted to the spacecraft at any time.

It certainly would be a less boring experience then early ocean voyages or 19th century polar expeditions.

Offline go4mars

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3748
  • Earth
  • Liked: 158
  • Likes Given: 3463
Hibernation and Torpor in Mammals and Birds (Charles P. Lyman, Academic Press 1983)

Link.

p. 203 indicates hibernation may be radioprotective.

OTOH, this Nature article speculates about gene thetapies that may mitigate radiation damage,

http://www.nature.com/gt/journal/v6/n9/full/3301005a.html

And DARPA has come up with a mixture of bactericidal/permeability-increasing protein (BPI) and antibiotics that increases the survival from acute radiation syndrome if taken within 12 hrs of exposure,

http://www.darpa.mil/NewsEvents/Releases/2012/01/04.aspx
I still wonder about radiation hormesis too.
« Last Edit: 02/20/2015 07:08 pm by CuddlyRocket »
Elasmotherium; hurlyburly Doggerlandic Jentilak steeds insouciantly gallop in viridescent taiga, eluding deluginal Burckle's abyssal excavation.

Offline docmordrid

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6334
  • Michigan
  • Liked: 4207
  • Likes Given: 2
Lots of anecdote and theory, but no proof.
DM

Offline KelvinZero

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4286
  • Liked: 887
  • Likes Given: 201
Personally, I would rather stay awake. I don't need much space.

Same here!  Why would I want to give up six months of my life to sleep?  As long as I have a laptop and I can use it to code, read, and watch old movies, I'll be happy.  Also, I'd spend a part of every day thinking, "Wow, I'm really in space, on my way to Mars!" -- wouldn't want to miss out on a day of that.

Perhaps after a month or two you might want the option to suggest one or more of the other passengers to be put to sleep though.. just for the voyage of course..

Offline Geron

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 229
  • Liked: 60
  • Likes Given: 7
I am also a doctor and fear that the complications associated with lowered body temperature currently outweigh risks. For one, the breathing tube has a balloon that can cause ischemia from prolonged use. The astronauts would need tracheotomies to prevent this and I bet they would rather just be awake.

Torpor is more difficult the larger the mammal. A more realistic way to reduce basal metabolic rate would be extreme calorie restriction. On 500 calories per day astronauts would be somewhat protected from radiation as all cellular processes slow down. Also, less provisions required. Calorie restriction should be evaluated on iss to prove out radiation protective affects prior to hibernation/coma induction.

Offline R7

  • Propulsophile
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2725
    • Don't worry.. we can still be fans of OSC and SNC
  • Liked: 992
  • Likes Given: 668
I am also a doctor and fear that the complications associated with lowered body temperature currently outweigh risks. For one, the breathing tube has a balloon that can cause ischemia from prolonged use. The astronauts would need tracheotomies to prevent this and I bet they would rather just be awake.

There seems to be no breathing tube, people would breath own their own. A line to nasal cavity feeding evaporating gas to chill body temperature (RhinoChill).

Btw for those who've had trouble finding the video here's better direct link with slider, Torpor starts at 56min mark.

http://www.livestream.com/niac2014/video?clipId=pla_ff02bdde-f92f-4b3a-ac5a-64b409985626&utm_source=lslibrary&utm_medium=ui-thumb
AD·ASTRA·ASTRORVM·GRATIA

Offline CuddlyRocket


Same here!  Why would I want to give up six months of my life to sleep?  As long as I have a laptop and I can use it to code, read, and watch old movies, I'll be happy.  Also, I'd spend a part of every day thinking, "Wow, I'm really in space, on my way to Mars!" -- wouldn't want to miss out on a day of that.


Same here besides the mission can perform some science along the way.

Not that much. Basically some medical science relating to be in interplanetary space (mainly radiation related), and most of that won't require much in the way of active involvement of the crew and passengers.

Quote
As for movies they don't even have to be old ones as new media can be transmitted to the spacecraft at any time.

And back of course; ranging from correspondence (letters and postings on NasaSpacflight.com) to moves in a 'postal' chess game. But probably mainly one way!

Quote
It certainly would be a less boring experience then early ocean voyages or 19th century polar expeditions.

Disregarding excitements caused by weather and wild animals, that is! :)
« Last Edit: 02/26/2014 02:01 pm by CuddlyRocket »

Offline Patchouli

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4490
  • Liked: 253
  • Likes Given: 457
I am also a doctor and fear that the complications associated with lowered body temperature currently outweigh risks. For one, the breathing tube has a balloon that can cause ischemia from prolonged use. The astronauts would need tracheotomies to prevent this and I bet they would rather just be awake.

Torpor is more difficult the larger the mammal. A more realistic way to reduce basal metabolic rate would be extreme calorie restriction. On 500 calories per day astronauts would be somewhat protected from radiation as all cellular processes slow down. Also, less provisions required. Calorie restriction should be evaluated on iss to prove out radiation protective affects prior to hibernation/coma induction.

That level of calorie restriction probably would do much more damage then the amount of radiation they're expected to encounter.
It definitely would cause even faster atrophy of the muscles,bones, and organs then would normally occur.

Deep space travel is hard enough as it is and the last thing we need is something making things even more difficult and unpleasant.
Besides the crew needs to have a clear head which they wouldn't have while being starved.

I'd actually consider hibernation with all it's risks over that.

Besides the latest rad drugs already give more effective protection.



Not that much. Basically some medical science relating to be in interplanetary space (mainly radiation related), and most of that won't require much in the way of active involvement of the crew and passengers.


I was thinking even going as far as including a space telescope on the mission similar to the ATM on Skylab.
it would need to be much lighter but a fairly capable interment could be had for only a few hundred kg.

This could be used for solar observations which would add one more warning for solar storms, looking at passing NEOs and surface observation of Mars.

I know it's redundant but it would be a minor increase in cost and mass.
« Last Edit: 02/26/2014 08:33 pm by Patchouli »

Online MickQ

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 869
  • Australia.
  • Liked: 191
  • Likes Given: 627
Maybe a very mild sedative in the colonists drinking water or breathing air would induce them to spend more time asleep than normal.  A couple of hours per person per day will add up over 3 months.  Flight crew would have their own un-modified supplies.

Mick.

Offline docmordrid

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6334
  • Michigan
  • Liked: 4207
  • Likes Given: 2
Sedation can increase the risk of pneumonia by 50% +/-.
DM

Offline NovaSilisko

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1828
  • Liked: 1440
  • Likes Given: 1301
I was thinking even going as far as including a space telescope on the mission similar to the ATM on Skylab.
it would need to be much lighter but a fairly capable interment could be had for only a few hundred kg.

This could be used for solar observations which would add one more warning for solar storms, looking at passing NEOs and surface observation of Mars.

I know it's redundant but it would be a minor increase in cost and mass.

A telescope to look back at earth would be a good booster of crew morale as well, IMO

Offline CuddlyRocket

I was thinking even going as far as including a space telescope on the mission similar to the ATM on Skylab.
it would need to be much lighter but a fairly capable interment could be had for only a few hundred kg.

This could be used for solar observations which would add one more warning for solar storms, looking at passing NEOs and surface observation of Mars.

I know it's redundant but it would be a minor increase in cost and mass.

A telescope to look back at earth would be a good booster of crew morale as well, IMO

Though you could send them hundreds of hours of HD video of Earth, I tend to agree with you that actually seeing something is qualitatively different (they could also look forward at Mars, of course). In fact, giving them some science experiments to do, even if of marginal scientific utility, may be worth while simply for the boost to morale.

Online MickQ

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 869
  • Australia.
  • Liked: 191
  • Likes Given: 627
Hypnotism ?    "You are getting VERRRRRRRYYY sleepy for the next 3 months."

Mick.

Offline subs

  • Member
  • Posts: 1
  • Sydney
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Hi.

I was curious to see how people thought about torpor/hibernation, so thought to start here. I've been running a biotech/biomicry project (Hibernaut) that's been running off the rid for the last dozen years and we've made so headway actually in this vein. The approach is strictly bio-logic and doesn't involve some questionable exotic cocktails or anything like that; we're strictly hard-nose real-world types. If you care to have a read (link below), I'd be interested of your take on it as I've been involved so deep, I can't see the forest for the trees any longer. It's a light wonder-junky's read, but note, it's also cutting-edge no bull, and literally decades ahead of the play. Please don't ask `how,Ž at this stage but I'm amenable and friendly to answering any other questions. For your info, the `killerŽexperiment is planned for sometime this year fund pending and some doco film-types have solicited to do a doco feature of this somewhat interesting adventure, but having been involved with film types before you never know as they're an awfully fickle lot. We'll possibly be looking to partner-up for the space exploration stuff with one of the space agencies, yet to be decided, possibly Asian at this stage, but to early to tell. Our primary focus is on healthcare side (most good), but realize that the Mars thingy poses some interest. Pleasant read.

Most kindly
Seb

http://www.slideshare.net/SebastienMurat/hibernaut-human-20doco-pitchdeckthe-dive-lab

Offline 5P4C3

  • Member
  • Posts: 8
  • Chicago area
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 15
Mars Colony Transfer Habitat. Using Torpor to shuttle 100 people to Mars. Coincidence, I think not!

100-Person Mars Transfer Vehicle using Torpor-Inducing Habitats:
http://www.sei.aero/eng/papers/uploads/archive/IAC-15-A5.2.12%20100%20Person%20Torpor%2010162015.pdf

They also have the presentation:
http://www.sei.aero/eng/papers/uploads/archive/IAC-15-A5.2.12%20100%20Person%20Torpor%20Presentation%2010162015.pdf

This is speculation, a lot of it but Musk did say that he was considering wild architectures. Also sorry for the Nero post I just couldn't find these anywhere on the site.
Wouldn't it be great if. D-Dalus, Fusion Reactors, Reusable Rockets, and Colonies on Mars.

Offline Patchouli

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4490
  • Liked: 253
  • Likes Given: 457
At least they're now including some people to stay awake and act as care takers but you'll probably need a lot more then four people to take care of a hundred people in an induced coma.
Though it's not like keeping potatoes in a crisper they'll need a lot of hands on care in that state.

Offline joek

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4869
  • Liked: 2782
  • Likes Given: 1096
Though it's not like keeping potatoes in a crisper they'll need a lot of hands on care in that state.
For what?

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0