Author Topic: Fastest Way to Expand Living Space on Mars  (Read 55022 times)

Offline Khadgars

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Re: Fastest Way to Expand Living Space on Mars
« Reply #20 on: 06/26/2013 01:10 am »
Interesting discussion.  However, don't we first need to figure out how to land on Mars first before we even worry about staying for extended periods of time?  I remember reading that the amount needed to land on Mars for Human missions is some 40 times heavier than Curiosity.  Nothing we have today is feasible.

Back on topic, I think the most sensible solution is simply landing living pods on the surface.  Perhaps the next commerical  missions?  :D
Evil triumphs when good men do nothing - Thomas Jefferson

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Fastest Way to Expand Living Space on Mars
« Reply #21 on: 06/26/2013 01:21 am »
Interesting discussion.  However, don't we first need to figure out how to land on Mars first before we even worry about staying for extended periods of time?  I remember reading that the amount needed to land on Mars for Human missions is some 40 times heavier than Curiosity.  Nothing we have today is feasible.

Those who want to do something find a way. Those who don't, find an excuse. This is one of the more weaker excuses.

Quote
Back on topic, I think the most sensible solution is simply landing living pods on the surface.

That'd be the slowest possible way.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline Khadgars

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Re: Fastest Way to Expand Living Space on Mars
« Reply #22 on: 06/26/2013 01:28 am »
Interesting discussion.  However, don't we first need to figure out how to land on Mars first before we even worry about staying for extended periods of time?  I remember reading that the amount needed to land on Mars for Human missions is some 40 times heavier than Curiosity.  Nothing we have today is feasible.

Those who want to do something find a way. Those who don't, find an excuse. This is one of the more weaker excuses.

Quote
Back on topic, I think the most sensible solution is simply landing living pods on the surface.

That'd be the slowest possible way.

I'm not following you.  What excuse was presented? 
Evil triumphs when good men do nothing - Thomas Jefferson

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Fastest Way to Expand Living Space on Mars
« Reply #23 on: 06/26/2013 01:35 am »
I'm not following you.  What excuse was presented? 

Oh, you weren't presenting the challenge of landing larger masses on Mars as some sort of insurmountable problem that suggests this entire thread is pointless?

Okay then, carry on.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline Khadgars

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Re: Fastest Way to Expand Living Space on Mars
« Reply #24 on: 06/26/2013 01:49 am »
I'm not following you.  What excuse was presented? 

Oh, you weren't presenting the challenge of landing larger masses on Mars as some sort of insurmountable problem that suggests this entire thread is pointless?

Okay then, carry on.


Ah yes I forgot about the sheer snarkiness on these threads.  But you are right, such discussions are not pointless and that is not what I meant. My point was, how do you plan to land such mass on the surface of Mars when we have 7 minutes of terror for a small, 1 ton rover?  Perfectly viable question for this thread and no need to be insulted by it.
Evil triumphs when good men do nothing - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Russel

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Re: Fastest Way to Expand Living Space on Mars
« Reply #25 on: 06/26/2013 04:27 am »
I'm not following you.  What excuse was presented? 

Oh, you weren't presenting the challenge of landing larger masses on Mars as some sort of insurmountable problem that suggests this entire thread is pointless?

Okay then, carry on.


Ah yes I forgot about the sheer snarkiness on these threads.  But you are right, such discussions are not pointless and that is not what I meant. My point was, how do you plan to land such mass on the surface of Mars when we have 7 minutes of terror for a small, 1 ton rover?  Perfectly viable question for this thread and no need to be insulted by it.

This really is getting off topic, but the obvious answer is if you want to land something bigger, you need a bigger lander. Its simple physics. Its just expensive and untested. Also, I very much doubt we need to land anything more than 15 tonnes in any one payload. Most things on Earth can be built from pieces much smaller than that.

Offline kkattula

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Re: Fastest Way to Expand Living Space on Mars
« Reply #26 on: 06/26/2013 02:25 pm »
Later on in the colonisation process you can of course have smelters and other industrialisation. The OP seems to be discussing the early phases of colonisation.

My suggestion: send a few types of small specialised robots, and many reels of nylon thread. One type of robot weaves bags of various shapes and sizes. Another type fills them with regolith, and another type transports them and stacks them up. The weaver can also produce large liner bags that humans can assemble in multiple layers and attach to a hatch or airlock to form a pressure shell.

Radiation protection is going to be a big concern. Just piling up regolith or sand around a habitat is not going to be very stable. Sandbags are a simple solution. The weaver could also make ropes and nets to hold things in place.

Nylon is a relatively simple commodity to ship in regularly, although you want it to be black pigmented for UV stability. Also nylon might be a good candidate for early manufacturing since it has a lot of uses.

Offline Patchouli

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Re: Fastest Way to Expand Living Space on Mars
« Reply #27 on: 06/26/2013 04:43 pm »
If you wanted to create a lot of living space quickly why not send a TBM in pieces of course.

Another novel way to get a big living quarters would be to figure out how to land the departure stage on Mars in one piece.
« Last Edit: 06/26/2013 04:43 pm by Patchouli »

Offline sanman

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Re: Fastest Way to Expand Living Space on Mars
« Reply #28 on: 06/27/2013 06:41 pm »
I thought MCT is going to be that bigger lander, as per Musk's hinted plan.

The Russians have been talking about a "robot base" on the Moon, which seems sensible to pave the way for the arrival of humans. Couldn't a similar approach be taken for Mars, whereby supplies of various types would be landed ahead of time along with robots and other automated systems. Then the humans could come at the end of all that.

ISRU could have been going for quite some time, proving and validating itself in the field, before humans actually arrive to consume anything.

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Fastest Way to Expand Living Space on Mars
« Reply #29 on: 06/28/2013 12:43 am »

ISRU could have been going for quite some time, proving and validating itself in the field, before humans actually arrive to consume anything.

That's the costly and slow approach. It's why I like part of the Mars One concept. Send a rover to check there is water available. Send dry goods for supply and then send people who get ISRU working for water and fuel for the return flight. It would be much less challenging and expensive than having it all in place and working without human supervision. With enough supplies the added risk would be low.


Offline QuantumG

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Re: Fastest Way to Expand Living Space on Mars
« Reply #30 on: 06/28/2013 01:00 am »
Just to be clear, there's no return flight in the Mars One concept.

But yes, risk reduction is good and should be done, but it shouldn't set the pace.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Fastest Way to Expand Living Space on Mars
« Reply #31 on: 06/28/2013 07:01 am »
Just to be clear, there's no return flight in the Mars One concept.


That's why I stated I like part of the concept. The part where much is left to the astronauts and not everything in place for every part of the mission before people are sent.

And to come back on topic. I think using mostly propulsive landing for heavy payloads and reworking the tanks for living space should be one method. The tanks would have to have some provisions for the conversion in place. The more equipment sent the more living space would become available.

For some luxury as well as some radiation shielding - which I don't see as so vital - fill the upper tank partly with water and have it as an recreational area with swimming pool.

Drilling for habitable caves would be a part of later stages of development.


Offline R7

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Re: Fastest Way to Expand Living Space on Mars
« Reply #32 on: 06/28/2013 08:07 am »
If you wanted to create a lot of living space quickly why not send a TBM in pieces of course.

For the same reason TBMs aren't used here for anything but special tunnel applications. They are very heavy, complex, expensive and make sense only if the goal is to drill a long tunnel. Pits, caverns and what not are blasted using conventional ways.

general question: what is know about Martian bedrock? Are there some special features that make it more difficult/easier to dig/drill/blast than on Earth.
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Offline gbaikie

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Re: Fastest Way to Expand Living Space on Mars
« Reply #33 on: 06/28/2013 07:00 pm »
If you wanted to create a lot of living space quickly why not send a TBM in pieces of course.

For the same reason TBMs aren't used here for anything but special tunnel applications. They are very heavy, complex, expensive and make sense only if the goal is to drill a long tunnel. Pits, caverns and what not are blasted using conventional ways.

general question: what is know about Martian bedrock? Are there some special features that make it more difficult/easier to dig/drill/blast than on Earth.

I would guess that Mars does not have a water table similar to Earth.
By which I mean one could drill a water well on Mars, but I would guess that it be in more limited areas. Drilling for water might be similar to drilling for oil on Earth.
This guess is based on the apparent scarcity of water on Mars as compared to Earth, Mars being less volcanic active and Mars having a thicker crust than Earth. So if digging to any depth on Earth, water is a more general problem, whereas on Mars I would guess it depend on a particular region.
Or generally on Mars it seems possible one could tunnel about 50 km beneath the surface, whereas that is not really practical/possible on Earth.
« Last Edit: 06/30/2013 05:24 am by gbaikie »

Offline MickQ

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Re: Fastest Way to Expand Living Space on Mars
« Reply #34 on: 06/30/2013 05:12 am »
I would think the fastest, and probably easiest way is to use an existing cave or lava tube.  Just build an airlock into a suitably sized opening and block off any others with expandable/inflatable walls. In effect balloons inflated to a slightly higher pressure than the internal atmosphere.  When more room is needed simply deflate the balloon, move it further into the cave and inflate it again.  This seems to me to be the quickest and easiest method using minimal resources.  Perfect for the early years of settlement.

Mick.

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Fastest Way to Expand Living Space on Mars
« Reply #35 on: 06/30/2013 08:04 am »
Forgive a (Mars) newbie question, how do you find caves or lava tubes suitable (eg stable, good size, in a desirable location) for a settlement?  Seems like a needle in a haystack type problem?

Can this be done do remote or robotic survey, or would the first settlers live in structures sent from Earth and search for them once on Mars?

Offline Andrew_W

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Re: Fastest Way to Expand Living Space on Mars
« Reply #36 on: 06/30/2013 08:44 am »
Forgive a (Mars) newbie question, how do you find caves or lava tubes suitable (eg stable, good size, in a desirable location) for a settlement?  Seems like a needle in a haystack type problem?

Can this be done do remote or robotic survey, or would the first settlers live in structures sent from Earth and search for them once on Mars?

There's quite a bit on this subject on the net; example:
http://www.space.com/18519-mars-caves-lava-tubes-photos.html
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Re: Fastest Way to Expand Living Space on Mars
« Reply #37 on: 06/30/2013 09:07 am »
There's quite a bit on this subject on the net; example:
http://www.space.com/18519-mars-caves-lava-tubes-photos.html

Thanks for the link; I obviously need to do some research.
« Last Edit: 06/30/2013 09:09 am by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline R7

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Re: Fastest Way to Expand Living Space on Mars
« Reply #38 on: 06/30/2013 09:54 am »
how do you find caves or lava tubes suitable (eg stable, good size, in a desirable location) for a settlement?

Rekindle the 60s can-do attitude; don't find them, make them!

See informative video starting with Edward Teller's uncanny Dr. Strangelove imitation.

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Offline gbaikie

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Re: Fastest Way to Expand Living Space on Mars
« Reply #39 on: 06/30/2013 08:15 pm »
Using nuclear explosion where there is thorium deposits [and added higher concentration of thorium] should result in uranium nuclear fuel.

So though you don't need containment as you do on Earth, on the Moon, one make nuclear power plant with containment and have it in same area where one can mine the created fuel for the nuclear reactor. Though on Mars one should have nuclear power containment.
So need to be able to drill a deep hole, have thorium ore, and nuclear bomb.

But I think one may find very large natural underground caves on Mars. More so than on Earth, and more so than the Moon. But making underground caves with nuclear bombs, should provide a means of finding them by measuring shock waves they create.
« Last Edit: 06/30/2013 08:20 pm by gbaikie »

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