Author Topic: Scaling Agriculture on Mars  (Read 574133 times)

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #980 on: 10/31/2016 06:11 am »
Turning organic nutrient back into inorganic is downright wasteful. Plants and animals assimilate better the organic forms of a nutrient.

I know you are an expert in this field. Still I find this hard to believe. Unless you are talking about ammonia as organic. All I had ever heard is that plants need the nutrients broken down to anorganics to absorb them. It is just that when using soil as a substrate, the quality of the soil improves when augmented with organic compounds that are then broken down by bacteria in the soil to usable anorganic nutrients at the speed and time, the plants need them. As you have mentioned, this process is not easy to control. They may produce byproducts we don't want in the air for ECLSS to deal with, like methane. In an artificial environment it may be better to have them done under controlled conditions in a vat.

Below is a presentation from the head of the Nutrition lab at NASA. Much as the relevance is a bit tangential, the 2 hour lecture is a great reminder of how creating a proper balanced meal and having astronauts actually eat it is quite difficult. Before we go on planning a diet based on algae and bugs, ask yourself: Will the astronauts actually eat it? Apparently the only time that astronauts ate their entire RDA was during Skylab.

Maybe that is due to the way the nutrients considered by the NASA Nutrition lab tries to fulfil the dietary needs is not taking into consideration, what people really want to eat?

About bugs and algae. Bugs are a cultural thing. Some people eat them with relish and even people from western culture can get around their cultural inhibitions and get to like them. Not that I am convinced this is the way to go.

Even more so about algae. I don't propose eating green algae goo. We had examples on this thread showing how algae biomass can be processed to food resembling things like milk and flour and vegetable oil closely enough that they can be used in daily cooking and nutrition. That technology is getting better fast. It eliminates the need for oil seeds and wheat as providers of bulk nutrition.

Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #981 on: 10/31/2016 01:01 pm »
Physiology is quite weird. Plants and animals convert the inorganic form in the organic form so as to pass into biology and then break it down. If wheat plants suffer a lack of iron they emit caffeic acid to the soil which will absorb iron and then break down the ironated form inside their cells to use the iron.

I agree, it is a cultural thing as much as nutrition, but as the lecturer shows astronauts are people and have their biases.

Offline Paul451

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #982 on: 11/01/2016 07:14 am »
Turning organic nutrient back into inorganic is downright wasteful. Plants and animals assimilate better the organic forms of a nutrient.

Plants can't utilise waste plant matter directly. They need the organic material converted back into a usable mineral form. We do this through composting and in-soil breakdown, but that is not useful for hydroponics. Which was my point. At some point the amount of waste plant matter alone will require a switch to soil-based farming. Unless there's existing research on directly converting plant waste into hydroponic-compatible nutrients.

[edit: This is probably just a confusion over my clumsy use of "organic".]
« Last Edit: 11/01/2016 07:22 am by Paul451 »

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #983 on: 11/01/2016 07:30 am »
Unless there's existing research on directly converting plant waste into hydroponic-compatible nutrients.

There is such research. Both at NASA and at ESA. It is not too hard to break down biologic material in vats. It should be only the last step, after it has been used to feed funghi, that can be used for food.

Offline Aussie_Space_Nut

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #984 on: 11/13/2016 12:14 am »
I was watching a Gardening show on TV the other day and I saw an interesting way of growing seasonal vegetables. You have a tub half fillled with gravel with a hole drilled halfway up the side. On the show old bath tubs were used. You cover the top of the gravel with an old sack. Cover over with compost 6 inches or so deep. Plant your seeds and water until water comes out the hole in the side. The vegetables will send their roots down past the sack and drink away at moisture full of all the nurients from the rotting compost above. Low cost, low energy solution. Great solution for dry climate areas where it is hard to keep up with the watering!:-)

A similar more well thought out aproach.
http://www.abc.net.au/gardening/stories/s4010599.htm
« Last Edit: 11/13/2016 12:29 am by Aussie_Space_Nut »

Offline WBailey

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #985 on: 11/13/2016 12:17 am »
Unless there's existing research on directly converting plant waste into hydroponic-compatible nutrients.

There is such research. Both at NASA and at ESA. It is not too hard to break down biologic material in vats. It should be only the last step, after it has been used to feed funghi, that can be used for food.

Anaerobic digestion comes to mind, widely used here on Earth:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaerobic_digestion

Or supercritical water oxidation?
« Last Edit: 11/13/2016 12:22 am by WBailey »

Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #986 on: 12/05/2016 04:05 pm »
Veg-03 has been activated on the ISS:

http://spaceref.com/biology/red-romaine-lettuce-growing-is-growing-in-space.html

Interestingly on the first VEGGIE experiment they sent half the crop to the ground, tested it, and then allowed the astronauts to eat the other half in one meal. The second VEGGIE experiment was with zinnia, something not usually eaten, to see if fruit can set among other thing. On the third VEGGIE experiment they still keep a portion for testing but they will now have 4 harvests. Template for Mars, rather than start growing a full crop from the very beginning.

Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #987 on: 02/01/2017 11:41 pm »
Eu-CROPIS, a German-European experiment to see how plants grow in reduced gravity, both Moon and Mars, is moving forward. Space.com has an article:

http://www.space.com/35533-space-greenhouses-moon-mars-greenhouse.html


Offline colbourne

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #988 on: 02/02/2017 04:17 am »
I believe it will be possible to grow tools and  items we require.
 Rather than requiring a complex and expensive 3D printer(very difficult to maintain on Mars), in the near future it will be possible to connect your CAD/CAM machine to a genetic manipulator which will allow seeds to be generated that can grow into your required device. A more simple approach is to force a normal plant through moulds to grow to the required shape.

Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #989 on: 02/02/2017 11:27 pm »
The genetic manipulator you are proposing is far harder than a 3D printer and belongs squarely to the realm of science fiction. You are underestimating the complexity of life. In any case, where would the feedstock come from?

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #990 on: 02/03/2017 07:51 am »
Eu-CROPIS, a German-European experiment to see how plants grow in reduced gravity, both Moon and Mars, is moving forward. Space.com has an article:

http://www.space.com/35533-space-greenhouses-moon-mars-greenhouse.html

A minor deviation towards space technology from the theme of this thread. Eu-CROPIS uses a tether to stabilize.

Offline lamontagne

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #991 on: 02/10/2017 12:15 pm »
I'm posting this here as I have been told it's not specifically SpaceX.
I will be reading the rest of the thread to see what I can find to improve the design.  Tubes rather than water bottles come to mind.
I would be interested in information on the energy conversion efficiency of the food chain:

Are water biomes as productive as air biomes in terms of food production?  How much 'product' could we expect from such a bubble?  These ones are an arbitrary 28m in diameter, so using an average of about 120 W/m2 of illumination they receive 73 kWh of sunlight per day.  The average human uses 2500 kilocalories per day, or about 3 kWh.  If we put photosynthetic efficiency at 5%, then we would need at least two of these per colonist?  And that may be wildly optimistic?  So something like over 1000m2 of growth area per colonist?   Seems high, somehow.

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #992 on: 02/10/2017 01:39 pm »
I'm posting this here as I have been told it's not specifically SpaceX.


Sorry. I meant only general discussion of growing plants and algae are not specifically SpaceX. Your large scale settlement renders are great and I would think that no one but SpaceX would facilitate them in any reasonable timeframe. My remark was not meant in any way negative. Thanks though for posting it here.

Offline lamontagne

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #993 on: 02/10/2017 04:26 pm »
I'm posting this here as I have been told it's not specifically SpaceX.


Sorry. I meant only general discussion of growing plants and algae are not specifically SpaceX. Your large scale settlement renders are great and I would think that no one but SpaceX would facilitate them in any reasonable timeframe. My remark was not meant in any way negative. Thanks though for posting it here.
No problem  :-)  got me to finally read through this thread (or about to page 30, where my brain exploded from information overload).
It would seem these green bags are not totally out of the question, although they will probably not be implemented at first.  Tubes might be even simpler, although I like the idea the bags can act as a weak separation system for contamination.  Not only scaling but the very nature of the arrangements will change with time, moving from initial dependency on Earth supplies to local products, and adding more interesting foods as quickly as possible.  We can expect a lot of ingenuity from the colonists ;-)  and perhaps some business in the form of 100$ steaks from Earth.

I need to work out their real shape if they are at 1 or 2 psi.  Perhaps not quite so flat.
At page 30 no one had yet tried a complete formal comparison between the plastic of solar films and the plastic of greenhouse bags, or of atmospheric greenhouses.

I expect we will need a few processing step between these bags and the colonist's stomachs.  And quite a bit of energy will be required to provide nitrogen for protein construction, and compress CO2 out of the atmosphere. Looks like a base, surrounded by a green belt, surrounded by a solar field belt, might be the end result.

I do not yet understand how yields can be higher than 1000m2 per colonist, due to the low efficiency of photosynthesis, and all the system loses.  I think we are looking at extra energy sources, perhaps?   If these extra needs become too large, then surface greenhouses may not be a rational choice, overall.  And surface greenery will be used more for a form of park than as production facilities.


Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #994 on: 02/10/2017 04:55 pm »
This thread is not specifically SpaceX. For all we know the Interplanetary Transport System could go the way of the National Aerospace Plane, which was THE coolest thing when I got into space as a kid. There is lots of information on the thread, lots of theories and educated speculation and very little concrete stuff. After all the closest we ever got to agriculture on Mars was the student experiment on the MarsOne surface probe to grow arabidiopsis on Mars.

What are water biomes? What are green bags? What are greenhouse bags? Do not assume we all understand what you are taking for granted. Is a water biome a pool of water where you somehow grow crops?

Offline lamontagne

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #995 on: 02/10/2017 05:31 pm »
This thread is not specifically SpaceX. For all we know the Interplanetary Transport System could go the way of the National Aerospace Plane, which was THE coolest thing when I got into space as a kid. There is lots of information on the thread, lots of theories and educated speculation and very little concrete stuff. After all the closest we ever got to agriculture on Mars was the student experiment on the MarsOne surface probe to grow arabidiopsis on Mars.

What are water biomes? What are green bags? What are greenhouse bags? Do not assume we all understand what you are taking for granted. Is a water biome a pool of water where you somehow grow crops?
A water biome is my name, no doubt inexact, for a large plastic bag, filled with water, where algae grows under natural sunlight.  There may be other organisms mixed in, whatever is the most favorable.  I expect it to be green, hence the colloquial name, green bag.  I posted two pictures above.
My guess is that this might be the best way to extract the most energy possible from Martian sunlight, and hence serve as a baseline for the analysis of food production on Mars.
I propose water as a medium because it will be much more stable than air, over a complete day, due to high thermal inertia.  And it provides a 3D volume in which many layers of life can capture a maximum amount of sunlight.
Another guess is that the pressure might be kept lower than for a true greenhouse, reducing mechanical strain on the structure of the envelope and reducing its cost.  but I have yet to find the data on this.
These bags would be fed CO2, water and nutrients, and they would return O2 and all the possible types of carbohydrates.  So an external chemical processing system would be required to compress the CO2, create ammonia, provide fresh water, extract minerals from Martian soil, etc.
The algae would be extracted, perhaps with pumps and strainers, and sent to a processing facility in the Mars base, where it would be used for all the good things algae can be used for, including feeding fish and poultry and such, or serving as part of a feed system for more sophisticated plants.

The reason I cite SpaceX is that I first posted this idea on another thread in the SpaceX section, and was directed to here as a more general and appropriate space for discussion. I will be happy if it is a Chinese or Norwegian base as well, government or private.   Whatever, I just want it to be Big ;-)

I am playing around with the idea of a growing Mars colony, and modeling it in 3D.  This is labor intensive, and I try to do things only once.  I wondered if my growing base would be surrounded by green, green and solar cells, just solar cells, or nothing at all (underground water cooled nuclear reactor with tunnel food production).


Offline sghill

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #996 on: 02/10/2017 06:17 pm »
What are water biomes? What are green bags? What are greenhouse bags? Do not assume we all understand what you are taking for granted. Is a water biome a pool of water where you somehow grow crops?

Use your Google-Fu. It is powerful!
Bring the thunder!

Offline lamontagne

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #997 on: 02/10/2017 07:00 pm »
What are water biomes? What are green bags? What are greenhouse bags? Do not assume we all understand what you are taking for granted. Is a water biome a pool of water where you somehow grow crops?

Use your Google-Fu. It is powerful!

Indeed, very green bags.  I guess it makes sense that the most optimum biological technology to capture CO2 would also be the most optimum technology to use solar energy on Mars?

This seems like an interesting resource, as far as algae production goes.
http://www.intechopen.com/books/biofuels-status-and-perspective/microalgal-biofuel

At least 5 kWh/year of oil per m2, plus about 90% by mass of other stuff, all of it very interesting to a Martian base.  Martian production might be half of that at best.
« Last Edit: 02/10/2017 07:27 pm by lamontagne »

Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #998 on: 02/10/2017 10:46 pm »
The problem with algae based diet, discussed ad nauseum in this thread, is that it becomes toxic to monogastric animals such as homo sapiens at 50 g/day. It can form a supplement but not the base of a diet.

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #999 on: 02/11/2017 05:58 am »
The problem with algae based diet, discussed ad nauseum in this thread, is that it becomes toxic to monogastric animals such as homo sapiens at 50 g/day. It can form a supplement but not the base of a diet.

That's for the protein. Oil and carbohydrates should be ok. I do wonder if the protein can be modified or GM algae could be devised that reduce this problem. We do know about algae that have been genetically modified to provide milk proteins.

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