Author Topic: Europe in space:Project "ARIES" and "MOONLIGHT".  (Read 71541 times)

Offline braddock

  • NSF Private Space Flight Editor
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 991
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Europe in space:Project "ARIES" and "MOONLIGHT".
« Reply #40 on: 06/21/2006 11:40 am »
Giuseppe (AchiJoe), we would love to see the entire NASA presentation.  If you would like, you can e-mail it to the site editor Chris Bergin at [email protected].  He will post it in our files section for everyone to see.

How is this proposal related to the MARS srl at http://www.marscenter.it/eng/default.asp ?

Welcome to the site!

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: Europe in space:Project "ARIES" and "MOONLIGHT".
« Reply #41 on: 06/21/2006 11:52 am »
I've mailed you, Giuseppe - welcome to the site.
Support NSF via L2 -- Help improve NSF -- Site Rules/Feedback/Updates
**Not a L2 member? Whitelist this forum in your adblocker to support the site and ensure full functionality.**

Offline Thomas ESA

  • Member
  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 210
  • Liked: 85
  • Likes Given: 5
RE: Europe in space:Project "ARIES" and "MOONLIGHT".
« Reply #42 on: 06/21/2006 01:35 pm »
I wonder what Dr Stanley thinks to all of this? He'd be about as qualified as anyone to comment.

Offline AchiJoe

  • Member
  • Posts: 17
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
RE: Europe in space:Project "ARIES" and "MOONLIGHT".
« Reply #43 on: 06/21/2006 04:24 pm »
Dear Chris,

thanks for your warm welcome!

As introduced in my previous post the Moonlight scenario, as proposed to NASA, is available at the following link:

http://rapidshare.de/files/23697968/NASA_Moon_Exploration_Scenario_AAS_CIRA.pdf.html
I
I want to answer to Braddock: MARS (Microgravity Advanced Research and Support Center) located in Naples, Italy is the company which I work for. I got involved in the Exploration Team because I was graduated in architecture with a space-oriented graduation thesis about the development of a manned reusable lunar transportation system (a direct ancestor of EAGLE), in 1996.

After my graduation I started to work with MARS, meanwhile I started to do annual small course about manned spacecraft configuration at Aerospace Engineering Faculty of University of Naples "Federico II".
In 2004 I was contacted by Eng. Micciché of Alenia Space, after the introduction of my old-time friend Eng. Russo of CIRA, if I'd like to be involved in design a new spacecraft family for Moonlight scenario.

Obviously I accepted, and I started to work about it (beside my daily job at MARS) exploting a special accord existing between Alenia and MARS as part of the same industrial group (Finmeccanica the biggest italian industrial group, which produces Aircraft, Trains and Spacecrafts and it is directly participated by Italian Government).

So that's, briefly, the story. And now I'm glad to join your forum...

Offline carmelo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 388
  • Liked: 5
  • Likes Given: 0
RE: Europe in space:Project "ARIES" and "MOONLIGHT".
« Reply #44 on: 06/21/2006 04:34 pm »
Quote
mlorrey - 20/6/2006  8:28 PM

Quote
Seattle Dave - 20/6/2006  8:04 PM

That is the problem with European ambitions, there's no public expenditure willingness.

Well, the Europeans are not loathe on spending public funds (just look at their socialist system). If you can find a socialist way to package a space program it will work for you (hell, just do what NASA does, make it a jobs program spread out among enough EU countries and the unions will all be for it).
Socialist?? we have not "socialist" systems in Europe.In some country we have socialdemocratic system, Lyndon Johnson's "great society" style.

Offline Flightstar

  • Lurking around OPF High Bay 2
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1894
  • KSC, Florida
  • Liked: 78
  • Likes Given: 8
RE: Europe in space:Project "ARIES" and "MOONLIGHT".
« Reply #45 on: 06/21/2006 04:39 pm »
Download didn't work for me. Just got a lot of popup adverts and a very slow download before it failed and asked me to pay for the download  :(

Offline UK Shuttle Clan

  • Veteran
  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 243
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
RE: Europe in space:Project "ARIES" and "MOONLIGHT".
« Reply #46 on: 06/21/2006 04:41 pm »
Quote
mlorrey - 20/6/2006  8:28 PM

Well, the Europeans are not loathe on spending public funds (just look at their socialist system). If you can find a socialist way to package a space program it will work for you (hell, just do what NASA does, make it a jobs program spread out among enough EU countries and the unions will all be for it).

Since when did "Europe" have a political system? Each country is different.

Offline nacnud

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2691
  • Liked: 981
  • Likes Given: 347
RE: Europe in space:Project "ARIES" and "MOONLIGHT".
« Reply #47 on: 06/21/2006 05:13 pm »
Rapid share seems to be borked.

"You have reached the download-limit for free-users. Want to download more?
Get your own Premium-account now! Instant download-access! (Or wait 30 minutes)"

Anybody download this already and could PM me for my email address?

Offline mlorrey

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2173
  • International Spaceflight Museum
  • Grantham, NH
  • Liked: 23
  • Likes Given: 5
RE: Europe in space:Project "ARIES" and "MOONLIGHT".
« Reply #48 on: 06/21/2006 05:14 pm »
Quote
UK Shuttle Clan - 21/6/2006  11:28 AM

Quote
mlorrey - 20/6/2006  8:28 PM

Well, the Europeans are not loathe on spending public funds (just look at their socialist system). If you can find a socialist way to package a space program it will work for you (hell, just do what NASA does, make it a jobs program spread out among enough EU countries and the unions will all be for it).

Since when did "Europe" have a political system? Each country is different.

"Old" Europe: German, France, Belgium, Italy, Holland, Norway, Sweden, Spain, and to a slightly lesser extent, Britain.

The EUs gaining sovereignty, forcing the surrender of national sovereign powers to the EU, is resulting in a pan-europe socialist state. There are hiccups on the road (France rejected the EU constitution cause they thought it would make them actually be productive workers, Britain refuses to give up the pound, etc) but it is clear the left ruling class is intent on a superstate.

It is also clear that, with few exceptions, the european economy is more or less socialist in nature, certainly significantly more socialist than the US. It is pretty universal there that exhorbitant taxes are spent on welfare state programs, even 90%+ of the 'carbon taxes' and energy taxes that were intended for CO2 sequestration and mitigation are going to weflare programs.
VP of International Spaceflight Museum - http://ismuseum.org
Founder, Lorrey Aerospace, B&T Holdings, ACE Exchange, and Hypersonic Systems. Currently I am a venture recruiter for Family Office Venture Capital.

Offline nacnud

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2691
  • Liked: 981
  • Likes Given: 347
Re: Europe in space:Project "ARIES" and "MOONLIGHT".
« Reply #49 on: 06/21/2006 05:23 pm »
I think you have a certian bias there mlorrey.

Offline braddock

  • NSF Private Space Flight Editor
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 991
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Europe in space:Project "ARIES" and "MOONLIGHT".
« Reply #50 on: 06/21/2006 06:47 pm »
I managed to download the presentation, and put it on my personal site for easy download so that we can get the disucssion started (instead of, ahem, chatting about politics...) :

(Now on the site's server).

Offline braddock

  • NSF Private Space Flight Editor
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 991
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Europe in space:Project "ARIES" and "MOONLIGHT".
« Reply #51 on: 06/21/2006 06:56 pm »
What is the propellant penalty for maintaining orbit for the LOOP?  There had been some discussions on the forum before (vanilla's L2 architecture) about how "lumpy" the lunar gravity gradient is, and how expensive to stay in Low lunar orbit.

Is your architecture for equatorial only, or full lunar access?

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: Europe in space:Project "ARIES" and "MOONLIGHT".
« Reply #52 on: 06/21/2006 07:18 pm »
I'm having problems uploading to the FTP, but I'll do it via an attachment, which will be a couple of mins at most to download.
Support NSF via L2 -- Help improve NSF -- Site Rules/Feedback/Updates
**Not a L2 member? Whitelist this forum in your adblocker to support the site and ensure full functionality.**

Offline marcozambi

  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 23
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
RE: Europe in space:Project "ARIES" and "MOONLIGHT".
« Reply #53 on: 06/21/2006 09:00 pm »
I just want to apologize for the long waiting time between your questions and our answers.
In this very moment here in Italy time is 10.40 pm so it's quite difficult to have us on line  :)

Giuseppe (AchiJoe) was at home with a little flu, so our reaction have been quite slow. Tomorrow morning (ITA Time GMT + 2 with daylight saving) AchiJoe will be at office and for sure WILL respond fluently to all your interesting (and in some way flattering) questions.
Marco

Offline Orbiter Obvious

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Europe in space:Project "ARIES" and "MOONLIGHT".
« Reply #54 on: 06/21/2006 09:20 pm »
No need to apologize! You are both very welcome new members here :)

Offline marcozambi

  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 23
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
RE: Europe in space:Project "ARIES" and "MOONLIGHT".
« Reply #55 on: 06/21/2006 09:34 pm »
At first, I emphasize that the plan presented to NASA, the "official" plan we're discussing about here, is the one posted by ArchJoe and attached by Chris.

I'll try to translate with my doggish english some of the comments posted by AchiJoe on our forum. (AchiJoe english is way better then mine, as you've noticed :) )

1) LOOP is a little space station in lunar orbit, and it's composed by 4 major elements. So, at least 4 launches will be needed to orbit all elements. The launcher will be an augmented Angara class rocket, but there are many others available on international market. A lunar tug will also be needed to transport LOOP components in L1 or Lunar Orbit, because none of them have autonomous manouvering capability (consider we tought to launch LOOP by Shuttle missions).

2) Assembly of LOOP will be done in LLO (or L1 if LOOP will be placed there).

3) Each component is not heavier of 14,000 kg, so they're well within the lift capability ("LEO-LLO" trajectory) of the Lunar Tug, that will drive components to correct place thanks to its own guidance, control and inertial apparatus.

4) LOOP's assembly will require an ARIES A (or CEV, obviously) with astronauts conducting EVAs in a very ISS similar way. An ATV derived logistical module could be required too. Launch sequence should begin with Truss, followed by Node section. Attached to Node (but NOT shown in the drawings) it could be needed a robot arm to be used for assembling components or to aid the docking procedures. This is because the only "active" docking port should be the (-Z) one (on the same axis of Truss, on the opposite side), while the other docking rings are "passive" only. This means every vehicle that docks with LOOP will be moved to needed port by robot arm. This is a MIR like behavior, and has been experimented using Lyappa robot arm.

5) LOOP mantains all modular charateristics of ISS (witch is derived from), so it could be expanded and it's possible to introduce as much upgrades as wanted. At this very moment LOOP is not projected to mantain a long duration crew, so it's to be intended and implemented as an automated station. LOOP will be inhabitated when new Eagle's crews will arrive to LLO by ARIES or CEV.
Marco

Offline braddock

  • NSF Private Space Flight Editor
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 991
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Europe in space:Project "ARIES" and "MOONLIGHT".
« Reply #56 on: 06/22/2006 01:03 am »
Is LOOP long enough and the Moon gravity strong enough for the structure to be gravity gradient attitude stabilized?  I see the Z1 with gyros in there, but I don't see any thrusters to desaturate the gyros if required.  Maybe gravity keeps it stable enough?  In L1?

Offline J Britt RSA

  • Regular
  • Member
  • Posts: 54
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
RE: Europe in space:Project "ARIES" and "MOONLIGHT".
« Reply #57 on: 06/22/2006 01:47 am »
Wow.

I've read this thread from start to finish at least a dozen times. This plan is so elegant and well-defined, it's a shame we can't dump VSE (I know, an extreme idea, but so what?) and adopt this.

As a hobby rocketeerist, i'm looking forward to seeing more of this plan explained in detail.

I do have a question however: since this is a European plan, could it not be developed with ESA Aurora project? Or is that even feasable?

Great thread!

Offline nacnud

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2691
  • Liked: 981
  • Likes Given: 347
Re: Europe in space:Project "ARIES" and "MOONLIGHT".
« Reply #58 on: 06/22/2006 01:50 am »
I was curious about that as well, there is certianly the fuel on loop for a few thrusters.

Offline braddock

  • NSF Private Space Flight Editor
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 991
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Europe in space:Project "ARIES" and "MOONLIGHT".
« Reply #59 on: 06/22/2006 02:29 am »
I dug up the delta-v requirements for station keeping in LLO and L2 from that excellent L2 Lunar Architecture thread and paper from vanilla a few months ago: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=1337&start=1&highlight=l2+lunar&highlightmode=1

That paper states that the dV for maintaining either LLO or L2 halo orbit is apparently around 400 ft/s (= 122 m/s?) per year.  However, without active control in LLO, the orbit will decay within around 4 months (at least for capsule sized objects, I don't know how it scales).

So maintaing the LLO station orbit doesn't sound too bad.  Maybe the EAGLE's can be used for boosting the LOOP station?

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0