Author Topic: Manned Mars Lander  (Read 63392 times)

Offline high road

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Re: Manned Mars Lander
« Reply #40 on: 12/04/2013 10:45 am »
Because of the amount of debris kicked up during landings, NASA did some research into preparing landing pads.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120920101035.htm

Basically, to prevent damage during the landing of a large craft, robotic rovers would be sent in advance to prep a landing pad.

Isn't a landing area several km across? Is the entire area going to be stabilized/excavated? If the spacecraft is already moving slow enough to land with precision of a few meters, isn't it already moving slow enough to just land?

Offline eriblo

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Re: Manned Mars Lander
« Reply #41 on: 12/04/2013 12:18 pm »
Because of the amount of debris kicked up during landings, NASA did some research into preparing landing pads.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120920101035.htm

Basically, to prevent damage during the landing of a large craft, robotic rovers would be sent in advance to prep a landing pad.

Isn't a landing area several km across? Is the entire area going to be stabilized/excavated? If the spacecraft is already moving slow enough to land with precision of a few meters, isn't it already moving slow enough to just land?

Landing anything big (Curiosity size and up) on Mars already requires using rocket engines and the idea is usually to simply use them all the way down to a soft landing at a specific point. The problem is that you will be pointing one or more fairly large rocket engines more or less straight into the ground. If its just sand/gravel/rocks you are effectively operating mankinds most powerful sand blaster. The high velocity debris can severely damage your lander as well as anything close by (like a previously landed habitat or power plant) - rocks can fly for a surprisingly long distance in the thin atmosphere. You might even be digging a hole big enough to topple the lander or at least make it really hard to get out :(

The pads mentioned in the article are leveled and reinforced to prevent this, on the order of 50-100 m in diameter and with the central part being covered with something more resistant to the engine exhaust.

Offline JasonAW3

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Re: Manned Mars Lander
« Reply #42 on: 12/04/2013 08:13 pm »
Crazy idea.

      A warmed CO2 filled balloon parachute.  You could use a more substantile fabric than even the latest parachute used for the Mars Laboratory.  And even though it would still be in a VERY thin atmosphere, it should provide at least some amount of drag.

     The current inflatable reentry system could be used as a basic model combines with some of the design of a supersonic parachute.

     Or, if you want to get COMPLETELY crazy, a semi inflated heat shield the size of a fooball stadium.  You would inflate the outer rim and eight spokes going out to the rim itself.  Steering could be accomplished by reducing pressure in one or more spokes so the total mass will push in the partially deflated section's direction.

     At a certain altitude, you'd cut loose the heat shield and pop a parachute, and use rocket thrust for the last bit of descent.

Like I said, Crazy idea.

Jason
« Last Edit: 12/04/2013 08:15 pm by JasonAW3 »
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Offline QuantumG

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Re: Manned Mars Lander
« Reply #43 on: 12/04/2013 09:21 pm »
Landing anything big (Curiosity size and up) on Mars already requires using rocket engines and the idea is usually to simply use them all the way down to a soft landing at a specific point.

What if you're landing "anything big" that doesn't require soft landing?

Random example: food.

Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Manned Mars Lander
« Reply #44 on: 12/04/2013 10:46 pm »
Hyperion:

Thanks for posting that NASA video.  It make one want to believe that landing people on Mars is possible.  Note that the MAV is vertical capsule mounted in the middle of one of the horizontal landers.

The two unmanned landings have to be pretty close together.  Considering the blast zone and flying debris talked about above, one wonders how close these two unmanned landings could really be.
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Offline gbaikie

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Re: Manned Mars Lander
« Reply #45 on: 12/04/2013 11:08 pm »
Landing anything big (Curiosity size and up) on Mars already requires using rocket engines and the idea is usually to simply use them all the way down to a soft landing at a specific point.

What if you're landing "anything big" that doesn't require soft landing?

Random example: food.

Speed of sound into a 10 feet of snow?
Or speed of sound with some sort of impactor design to keep gees to about constant 100.
So tube/pipe which pile drives into surface? absorbing shock both with penetrating ground
and payload sliding down tube with ever steeper resistance. So tube being about 5' long.
And/or 5 feet of crumple zone- made of stuff which could have value as scrap- metal, plastics, etc.

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Manned Mars Lander
« Reply #46 on: 12/04/2013 11:22 pm »
Landing anything big (Curiosity size and up) on Mars already requires using rocket engines and the idea is usually to simply use them all the way down to a soft landing at a specific point.

What if you're landing "anything big" that doesn't require soft landing?

Random example: food.

Speed of sound into a 10 feet of snow?
Or speed of sound with some sort of impactor design to keep gees to about constant 100.
So tube/pipe which pile drives into surface? absorbing shock both with penetrating ground
and payload sliding down tube with ever steeper resistance. So tube being about 5' long.
And/or 5 feet of crumple zone- made of stuff which could have value as scrap- metal, plastics, etc.

Parachute + airbags should be sufficient for food deliveries to Mars.

I remember Jim posted some numbers when people were wondering why NASA didn't send more Spirit/Opportunity missions.
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Offline eriblo

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Re: Manned Mars Lander
« Reply #47 on: 12/05/2013 02:13 pm »
Landing anything big (Curiosity size and up) on Mars already requires using rocket engines and the idea is usually to simply use them all the way down to a soft landing at a specific point.

What if you're landing "anything big" that doesn't require soft landing?

Random example: food.

Speed of sound into a 10 feet of snow?
Or speed of sound with some sort of impactor design to keep gees to about constant 100.
So tube/pipe which pile drives into surface? absorbing shock both with penetrating ground
and payload sliding down tube with ever steeper resistance. So tube being about 5' long.
And/or 5 feet of crumple zone- made of stuff which could have value as scrap- metal, plastics, etc.

Parachute + airbags should be sufficient for food deliveries to Mars.

I remember Jim posted some numbers when people were wondering why NASA didn't send more Spirit/Opportunity missions.

Well, we were talking about soft landing (of large landers) but that's of course not always a requirement. Curiosity sized payloads are possible (IIRC) with just parachutes and airbags if you don't mind the payload sitting in a big pile of fabric after landing, and they will probably work for larger but less sensitive loads as well. Heck, if all you're sending down is solid metal or thermoplastic for local production you could possibly skip those too ;).
But it would require enough things being sent down to make it practical to separate out the "hard-landable" items as well as a significant roving capability on the ground...

Offline JasonAW3

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Re: Manned Mars Lander
« Reply #48 on: 12/05/2013 06:36 pm »
Liken the lander to a Skycrane helicopter, minus rotating parts.  The helo can operate by itself or it can carry cargo containers, vehicles or equipment underslung.

The lander would be the same.  It would contain the crewed area, all propulsion, tankage, avionics and life support.  It could be used solely as a crew transport or as a cargo lander.  I cannot remember who suggested this idea on another thread but if ISRU is available then the lander can fill up on the surface and launch with all the ascent and descent prop required for the next cycle.

Cargo can be hab, power station, ISRU plant, rovers, MPLM type containers, anything that could be made in, or fitted into the same shape and mass limits.

Mick.

That was me.

     The idea being that it could either be used as a substitute for a Crasher stage or a semi reusable system.  By piloting from the Hab module, you eliminate a great deal of weight and can automate a landing nearby, (but far enough away to avoid debris blasting the habitat) on fairly unsophistacated landing gear.

Jason.
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Offline savuporo

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Re: Manned Mars Lander
« Reply #49 on: 12/05/2013 06:45 pm »
Parachute + airbags should be sufficient for food deliveries to Mars.

s/food deliveries/bulk goods and materials/

This leaves the problem of getting the goods to the base from the landing ellipse. I wonder if there have been any serious studies of moving payloads like these with self-reconfiguring modular robots.
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Offline JasonAW3

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Re: Manned Mars Lander
« Reply #50 on: 12/05/2013 07:11 pm »
Ok,

     Another crazy idea.

     What about a reentry powered supersonic propulsive deceleration system?  In short, a series of tubes are woven in the TPS (Inward of the heating surface), and a fluid, (Water) is run through these tubes to help cool the TPS and minimize alblation.  The superheated water (Now superheated steam) would be released from strategically placed exhaust nozzels along the sides of the aeroshell.  This would act to both cool teh TPS shield and provide an additional degree of deceleration to the craft before deploying its' parachute and making the final propulsive landing.

     The steam jets could be throttled for steering as needed during the initial descent for better targeting of teh landing site.

     I'm not quite sure how much additiona mass this would add to the overall scheme, but the accuracy and reduction of mass for the TPS shell should help counterbalance the added mass.

Just a thought...

Jason
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Offline Hanelyp

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Re: Manned Mars Lander
« Reply #51 on: 12/06/2013 01:28 am »
A similar actively cooled heat shield was proposed for http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/rombus.htm

Offline TaylorR137

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Re: Manned Mars Lander
« Reply #52 on: 12/16/2013 11:41 pm »
Here's my concept "Space Shuttle 2.0" - 10m x 30m - same basic EDL as DRM5, ~100 tons at Mars Entry.

The idea is to get a Mars mission (or moon, or asteroid) out of a single SLS launch with in orbit rendezvous of commercially delivered fuel in drop tanks, which makes for a good low cost payload for RLVs, optimized and program survivability rather than IMLEO. The concept artist (Stanley Von Medvey) sketched it launching on FX Heavy though as he's a SpaceX fan. Also shown is an inflatable habitat that could be left in Mars orbit before EDL.

At the core of the vehicle is an elevator that allows for shifting the center of gravity during descent, and the legs double as control surfaces similar to hypersonic test vehicles.

« Last Edit: 12/20/2013 05:08 am by TaylorR137 »

Offline Lars_J

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Re: Manned Mars Lander
« Reply #53 on: 12/17/2013 03:26 am »
I like it - a very cool concept. (Similar to what I have presented earlier) But the location of the cockpit makes little sense... This won't fly like a shuttle.
« Last Edit: 12/17/2013 03:28 am by Lars_J »

Offline TaylorR137

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Manned Mars Lander
« Reply #54 on: 12/17/2013 03:51 am »
I concede that but it reminds people of the shuttle so we decide to leave it as is. After all, Mars landings will certainly be automated given the need for a 3-6G burn just before touchdown with tight margins. I'm also leaning towards an engines-first descent with the nozzles flush with the heat shield, given the loads the rollover maneuver before would put on structures, and the need to keep the docking port safe.

Actually Stanley has just such a concept (which predates mine), "Hydra"

Edit: Image uploaded - I was on a mobile device which didn't allow attaching.
« Last Edit: 12/17/2013 04:07 am by TaylorR137 »

Offline Lars_J

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Re: Manned Mars Lander
« Reply #55 on: 12/17/2013 04:04 am »
Don't embed these huge images, it breaks the site layout. Attach the images.

Offline cordwainer

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Re: Manned Mars Lander
« Reply #56 on: 12/17/2013 04:09 am »
Well, here is my crazy idea. Imagine a giant umbrella made up of Kevlar airbags with the pointy end dropping towards Mars. The umbrella is spread out just wide enough to act as an air deflector for a rocket engine tethered to the "handle" of the umbrella. The "air deflector" reduces the need for a heat shield for both the landing module and the tethered deceleration rocket. When you get relatively close to the surface at a few hundred meters you jettison the rocket engine and deploy drag chutes. The "umbrella" unfolds within 25 to 30 meters of the surface and acts like a shock absorber. Now you have a ready made ramp to roll out vehicles and supplies along. Your now "flattened" umbrella is designed with large hollow cavities between the support "spokes" to channel the exhaust from the rocket thrusters for the return-to-orbit crew module.

Offline cordwainer

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Re: Manned Mars Lander
« Reply #57 on: 12/17/2013 04:32 am »
Now here is my "really crazy idea". Build jumbo size NTR's that can carry thousands of tons to LEO and use them the colonize the inner solar system in one shot. Design them with tall landing gear struts and aero-spike nozzles so they can take off safely from a planetary surface without a gantry and exhaust trench. Put NEP engines at the nose of the rocket for reaction control and put your cargo/crew modules on mobile tracked platforms in a  "piggybacked" configuration attached to the sides of the fuselage. The platforms act like elevators lowering the cargo modules after landing and raising them safely out of the way during launch. Launch a few of these beasts to act as space station/ refueling points for moon shuttles. Send the rest to the Moon to lay down a sizable settlement with nuclear reactors to provide your initial power source. Your space stations rockets would carry moon shuttles as well as vehicles for the initial "claim staking" manned mission to Mars. These Mars Express Transports would be based on compact powerful propulsion designs like Mini-Mag Orion or Magnetic Liner Fusion propulsion so you could beat any competing nations to the punch by quickly laying down a settlement on Mars. Once your moon settlements had enough ISRU capability set up they would refuel some of their NTR's load them up and send a larger settlement population to Mars. Over time Mass drivers would be built on the Moon to supply Earth and Mars with rare materials and micro-gravity manufactured goods. Yeah, highly unlikely any nation would spend the money on something that crazy. Although those giant lines in the Ghobi desert look awfully suspicious.

Offline go4mars

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Re: Manned Mars Lander
« Reply #58 on: 12/17/2013 04:54 am »
Aim your orbital mirrors at relatively unstable solid carbon dioxide in the area you intend to land; immediately before your land there.  Transient localized increase in atmospheric pressure will increase drag and downmass. 

Feel free to take that one @boredelonmusk!
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Offline Lars_J

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Re: Manned Mars Lander
« Reply #59 on: 12/17/2013 06:57 am »
I concede that but it reminds people of the shuttle so we decide to leave it as is. After all, Mars landings will certainly be automated given the need for a 3-6G burn just before touchdown with tight margins. I'm also leaning towards an engines-first descent with the nozzles flush with the heat shield, given the loads the rollover maneuver before would put on structures, and the need to keep the docking port safe.

Actually Stanley has just such a concept (which predates mine), "Hydra"

Edit: Image uploaded - I was on a mobile device which didn't allow attaching.

TaylorR137 - Do you have a cross-section of your concept? I'm curious about where the crew areas are, and the size of the propellant tanks.

I have to say that the landed view is my favourite - a very cool concept for unloading cargo.

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