Author Topic: Offworld egg production: an analysis  (Read 17471 times)

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Offworld egg production: an analysis
« Reply #20 on: 06/17/2016 06:45 am »
Eggs are not needed. Chickpea flour mixed with water one to one ratio is a perfect egg substitute.

Any plant proteins are not a perfect substitute for animal protein. And no, I don't see falafel as a perfect replacement for egg.

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Offworld egg production: an analysis
« Reply #21 on: 06/17/2016 07:00 am »
Auburn University took chicken manure, dehydrated it, soaked it with molasses, then fed it to cows.

So glad I'm not a cow.

Offline alexterrell

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Re: Offworld egg production: an analysis
« Reply #22 on: 06/17/2016 09:22 am »
So if your trip to Mars is 3 months then your chickens will be 5 weeks old when landing on Mars.

I believe, don't know for sure, that their bones are not yet completly solid at this age. In other words they are likely to bend rather than break under load. This should aid them being able to withstand landing G forces. How much? Unknown.

You only need to get 1 female chicken on Mars. Artificially inseminate from then on to gain genetic diversity in the flock.

Alternatively, launch eggs and hatch them. Raise the chickens in low Earth orbit, in a small flywheel, then depart for Mars. Create new eggs just before landing. Eat chickens, and land with 2nd generation eggs only.

How long before chickens can start laying eggs?

Offline docmordrid

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Re: Offworld egg production: an analysis
« Reply #23 on: 06/17/2016 09:49 am »
Pullets (young hens) start laying at 16-25 weeks depending on breed - on Earth. Your planet may vary.
« Last Edit: 06/17/2016 09:51 am by docmordrid »
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Offline Geron

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Re: Offworld egg production: an analysis
« Reply #24 on: 06/17/2016 11:05 am »
Colon cancer, prostate cancer and breast cancer and liver cancer all occur in much higher frequencies because of our unhealthy obsession with animal protein.

The caloric density and year round availability of animal protein was important a few hundred years ago but has been rendered obsolete by abundance.

Just as smoking was slowly backed out, within 50-100 years you will start to see labels on animal products that state "this product causes heart disease, increased risk of stroke, cancer and death."

That being said if you want to eat eggs because they taste good that is fine. Just don't try to tell me that Mars colonists will need animal products to survive.

As it is, there is going to be quite the skin cancer epidemic on Mars. It would be nice if we left some of the diseases associated with gluttony back on earth.

Offline spacenut

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Re: Offworld egg production: an analysis
« Reply #25 on: 06/17/2016 12:14 pm »
Some of that has recently been proven wrong.  Genetics plays a 90% or greater roll in various disease.  Eskimos in Alaska were studied.  Their diet was 80% meat, fish, caribou, with very little in the way of vegetation.  They had virtually no diabetes, and no heart disease.  They only got those diseases after consuming processed foods and sweets.  I have lost 20-30 pounds on a mostly animal protein diet with low carb vegetables and fruits, very little sugars, white bread, potatoes or rice, and my cholesterol has dropped from 252 to 135.  Hmmm.   

I also eat two eggs a day, not scrambled as I like the soft yokes over easy.  I eat bacon, beef, chicken, fish, and shrimp, green, yellow, and orange vegetables.  I sometimes eat a little bread, rice, or potatoes, but only about once a week.  Most westerners are not vegans, so they will like their meat and protein, also most far easterners eat meat.  Fish and chicken are eventually going to be a MUST HAVE on Mars. 
« Last Edit: 06/17/2016 12:16 pm by spacenut »

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Offworld egg production: an analysis
« Reply #26 on: 06/17/2016 04:29 pm »
Colon cancer, prostate cancer and breast cancer and liver cancer all occur in much higher frequencies because of our unhealthy obsession with animal protein.

The caloric density and year round availability of animal protein was important a few hundred years ago but has been rendered obsolete by abundance.

Just as smoking was slowly backed out, within 50-100 years you will start to see labels on animal products that state "this product causes heart disease, increased risk of stroke, cancer and death."

That being said if you want to eat eggs because they taste good that is fine. Just don't try to tell me that Mars colonists will need animal products to survive.

As it is, there is going to be quite the skin cancer epidemic on Mars. It would be nice if we left some of the diseases associated with gluttony back on earth.

There's no real evidence for any of that.  It's all based on correlation studies, which are notoriously misleading.  There are just far too many confounding factors to try to draw conclusions about cause and effect from dietary correlation studies.

The only good evidence for drawing conclusions about anything medical comes from randomized studies.  And the best evidence is from double-blind studies.  It's been shown time and time again that studies that aren't double-blind often give wildly inaccurate results.  Unfortunately, for the long term effects of diet on humans, double-blind isn't an option, so the best we can do is randomized studies that aren't double-blind.  But they are very, very expensive and take a long time to perform.  So, most research that is published about diet is done with after-the-fact correlation studies, which are, at best, suggestive.

For example, consider the effects of dietary fat on heart disease, stroke, and colorectal cancer.  Based on correlation studies, there seemed to be a strong link.  Then, a large-scale, randomized study was done.  More than 48,000 women participated.  They were randomly placed into a group that was asked to go on a low-fat diet and a group that was not.  They were followed for an average of 8 years each, and how much they actually reduced their dietary fat was tracked.  And the data showed no effect at all on heart disease, stroke, or colorectal cancer.  The study also looked at breast cancer rates and found a small effect, but not enough to be definitive.

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/news-womens-health-initiative-reducing-total-fat-intake-may-have-small-effect-risk-breast-cancer-no-effect-risk-colorectal-cancer-heart-disease-or-stroke

Science is hard.  Short cuts give unreliable results.  Correlation studies about medical effects of diet are unreliable short cuts.

Offline butters

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Re: Offworld egg production: an analysis
« Reply #27 on: 06/17/2016 05:37 pm »
Auburn University took chicken manure, dehydrated it, soaked it with molasses, then fed it to cows.

So glad I'm not a cow.

In the US, cattle are also fed urea synthesized using natural gas and air. For human spaceflight applications, the water recycling system will recover urea which could be used for food production. Besides cattle fodder and plant fertilizer, another possibility would be cultivating mycoprotein (e.g. "Quorn" brand) in a sugar solution with recovered urea.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Offworld egg production: an analysis
« Reply #28 on: 06/17/2016 06:35 pm »
Auburn University took chicken manure, dehydrated it, soaked it with molasses, then fed it to cows.

So glad I'm not a cow.

In the US, cattle are also fed urea synthesized using natural gas and air. For human spaceflight applications, the water recycling system will recover urea which could be used for food production. Besides cattle fodder and plant fertilizer, another possibility would be cultivating mycoprotein (e.g. "Quorn" brand) in a sugar solution with recovered urea.
Or use ammonia. Super easy to make from hydrogen and nitrogen (both of which you'll need anyway) and not so gross.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline Patchouli

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Re: Offworld egg production: an analysis
« Reply #29 on: 06/17/2016 10:53 pm »
The way chicken drink depends on gravity. Probably some kind of force feeding will be necessary in microgravity. If a way can be found to defer hatching until after landing things would be much easier.

Fortunately they only stand 8 to 18 inches high so you could just keep them in a centrifuge that's small enough to fit inside the hull of a spacecraft module such as a BA330.
At a young age you might even be able to get away with just have them inside a dragon capsule and spinning it.
Tending and cleaning up after them can be handled by small robots that will stay inside said centrifuge with them.

The Mars EDL and transport in a pressurized rover probably would be less stressful for them then a trip in the back of a live stock trailer back on earth.
« Last Edit: 06/17/2016 10:56 pm by Patchouli »

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Offworld egg production: an analysis
« Reply #30 on: 06/18/2016 05:42 am »
Cleaning up is another problem to be solved. Doable but now that we know freezing eggs will work none of this is necessary.

Transport of animals will be necessary. I would guess induced coma and drip feeding will cause the least problems.

Offline Aussie_Space_Nut

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Re: Offworld egg production: an analysis
« Reply #31 on: 06/18/2016 05:48 am »
I think we must transport live animals.

Lets say your chickens hatch out on the journey or after arrival on Mars. Where are they going to get all the gut bacteria they require to digest their food? It won't be in their sterile space capsule or Mars habitat environments would it?

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Offworld egg production: an analysis
« Reply #32 on: 06/18/2016 06:03 am »
I think we must transport live animals.

Lets say your chickens hatch out on the journey or after arrival on Mars. Where are they going to get all the gut bacteria they require to digest their food? It won't be in their sterile space capsule or Mars habitat environments would it?

Fecal matter can be transported separately. But this is one example how many things need to be thought of. You make a valid point.

Offline docmordrid

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Re: Offworld egg production: an analysis
« Reply #33 on: 06/18/2016 03:14 pm »
We already know how to create probiotic mixtures for humans and a few other other critters, and gut disorders caused by improper ratios of microbiota can be treated using them or in some cases by capsules of donated fecal material which are ingested or inserted (fecal microbiota transplant, a treatment for C. difficile etc.)

On the edge of this issue is that a connection between brain & mental health and gut microbiota is being explored. Recent mouse models revealed a possible link to autism spectrum disorders and other maladies.

If follow up work pans out maintaining the proper populations of gut microbiota in a sealed  environment could be a *really*big*deal* for all lifeforms we take to Mars.
« Last Edit: 06/18/2016 05:28 pm by docmordrid »
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Offline alexterrell

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Re: Offworld egg production: an analysis
« Reply #34 on: 06/19/2016 02:59 pm »
Some of that has recently been proven wrong.  Genetics plays a 90% or greater roll in various disease.  Eskimos in Alaska were studied.  Their diet was 80% meat, fish, caribou, with very little in the way of vegetation.  They had virtually no diabetes, and no heart disease.  They only got those diseases after consuming processed foods and sweets.  I have lost 20-30 pounds on a mostly animal protein diet with low carb vegetables and fruits, very little sugars, white bread, potatoes or rice, and my cholesterol has dropped from 252 to 135.  Hmmm.   

I also eat two eggs a day, not scrambled as I like the soft yokes over easy.  I eat bacon, beef, chicken, fish, and shrimp, green, yellow, and orange vegetables.  I sometimes eat a little bread, rice, or potatoes, but only about once a week.  Most westerners are not vegans, so they will like their meat and protein, also most far easterners eat meat.  Fish and chicken are eventually going to be a MUST HAVE on Mars. 

Interesting. As it seems easier to grow protein (e.g. fish) on Mars compared to carbohydrate (grains, pasts, rice etc), perhaps Martians will have to adapt to that diet.

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Offworld egg production: an analysis
« Reply #35 on: 06/19/2016 03:09 pm »
this is going OT. For these discussions we have "Scaling Agriculture on Mars".

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35877.msg1551516#new

Algae can be the source of carbohydrates. Bread, pastries and noodles from algae, not grains. A source of cooking oil too. But please, if you want to continue, use the other thread.

Offline docmordrid

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Re: Offworld egg production: an analysis
« Reply #36 on: 06/19/2016 04:22 pm »
Some of that has recently been proven wrong.  Genetics plays a 90% or greater roll in various disease.  Eskimos in Alaska were studied.  Their diet was 80% meat, fish, caribou, with very little in the way of vegetation.  They had virtually no diabetes, and no heart disease. 
>

Interesting. As it seems easier to grow protein (e.g. fish) on Mars compared to carbohydrate (grains, pasts, rice etc), perhaps Martians will have to adapt to that diet.

It's very individual. I'm 65 with Nordic ancestors and a meat eating hunter, and yet my serum cholesterol is about 130 with excellent ratios. Internist jokingly said I could probably process axle grease.

OTOH, a friend's husband is a vegan whose cholesterol is almost 300 and difficult to control.

Genetics Grasshopper, genetics. Potential Martians may want to consider tests to determine if their system can process whatever is in the menu before leaving.
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Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Offworld egg production: an analysis
« Reply #37 on: 06/21/2016 02:28 am »
This also ties into artificial womb technology, if we can just avoid discussing humans.

Apparently there was some sort of success with a goat womb? I know embryos can be frozen for years. I wonder how far we are away from freezing a hen embryo and then gestating it in an artificial egg. If the embryo can survive freezing, what part of an egg does not? Can it be reassembled later from the necessary components?

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Offworld egg production: an analysis
« Reply #38 on: 06/21/2016 06:55 am »
This also ties into artificial womb technology, if we can just avoid discussing humans.

Apparently there was some sort of success with a goat womb? I know embryos can be frozen for years. I wonder how far we are away from freezing a hen embryo and then gestating it in an artificial egg. If the embryo can survive freezing, what part of an egg does not? Can it be reassembled later from the necessary components?

We already have a very clear statement on this thread that eggs can be frozen and then hatched. And that not under controlled optimized conditions, just frozen from cold weather. I am sure we can do better with shock frosting and keeping them very cold during transport. We need to test it out, sure.

Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Offworld egg production: an analysis
« Reply #39 on: 06/22/2016 04:06 pm »
A few comments:

The age of single breed chickens grown commercially is over. Commercial chicken hybrids are a mix of several breeds whose exact ancestry is a trade secret. Commercial egg farmers generally have very little control today in their farm: big ag corporations provide the farmer with the hatchlings, directly from the hatchling companies. They are also given model diets, what sort of mix optimizes egg production (least feed per egg)  though they can source their feed as they wish. They are even given instructions on what the animal bedding should look like and how often it is to be replaced. Finding an optimum breed in the literature is commendable, IRL chickens have better conversion ratio than any single breed.

Conversion ratio depends on the specific diet. When creating a diet we have tables, derived from agricultural extension services and similar organizations. On one axis lie feed ingredients in the form of non dietary fiber, calories, lysine etc. On the other axis is bird weight and age. Depending on animal age you need x grams of ingredient a, y grams of ingredient b etc. Now of course there is no such thing as a pure calorie source, pure fiber source etc, these are derived from the feed raw materials. This is why there are also tables saying what is the ingredient per feed source: e.g. milled corn contains so much of a and b. As you can see there are two big unknowns here: Will the birds under Mars conditions require x,y,z grams of ingredient a,b,c? Will plants grown under Mars conditions actually contain the same ingredients as on Earth? More research is necessary.

Before we engage in egg production we need to decide on a model diet. What lies in your freezer / storage space that you intend to feed to the birds? Unlike cows that do require hay to produce milk, chickens may not be the most efficient conversion mechanism for plant remains, if that is our main source. Furthermore you also need to be realistic in terms of remains can be available: you cannot have molasses unless you are growing sugarcane. Will we grow sugarcane on Mars? Not any time soon. Simply put we start transferring animals to Mars after we have a quasi-fixed human diet and have studied what else we can grow with food near spoilage and byproducts created from the human diet (e.g. hay).

I am pretty sure that there is research on how long we can freeze birds eggs. Also I would not be surprised if we can transfer unfertilized eggs and male sperm separately and fertilize artificially after we land on Mars. Alas, I do not know, as an undergrad I specialized in irrigation and as a grad I moved towards GIS and Remote Sensing.

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