Author Topic: China to have new rockets  (Read 208954 times)

Offline link2universe

Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #380 on: 10/10/2016 07:34 AM »
Here they talk about the CZ9, and the fact it will reach about 100m height and that they will bring it back on a barge, like SpaceX now with Falcon 9

http://www.chinaspaceflight.com/rocket/Heavy-Lift-Launch-Vehicle/Heavy-Lift-Launch-Vehicle.html

Hmm....I don't remember reading about that in that page or on the Chinese forums that I read about. Can you point out where this was written?


:D my fault, my chinese is really rusty now.

the text is this

"中国运载火箭技术研究院北京宇航系统工程研究所研究员杜涛介绍“未来,火箭的外形将变得更长,会达到100米左右;芯级直径更粗,估计能有8到10米;助推器也会更多,我们将通过模块化、组合化的设计理念,实现火箭‘一次优化设计,产生多个构型’的发展趋势。”杜涛介绍说,“另外,考虑到未来箭体落区的划定范围会越来越小,我们将优化火箭气动外形设计,减小下落的散布。同时,将进一步发展类似‘猎鹰9’运载火箭在海面平台垂直降落的箭体的定向回收技术,让一级箭体下落过程能够完全可控,定点着陆。"

杜涛说:“可重复使用的火箭是我们的最终目标,我想,那时候的火箭将‘长出翅膀’,像飞机降落在机场一样,缓缓降落在地面。若是技术允许,甚至可能取代现在的垂直起飞方式,实现水平起飞。”


The english translation with google translate is this

"
"China Academy of Launch Vehicle Technology Beijing Aerospace System Engineering Institute researcher Du Tao" future rocket shape will become longer and will reach 100 meters; thicker diameter core stage, estimated to have 8-10 m; help thruster will be more, we will be modular, combination of design philosophy, the Rockets 'first optimization design, generating a plurality of configuration' trends. "Du Tao said," In addition, taking into account the future of the scoping rocket body drop zone will become increasingly smaller, we will optimize the rocket aerodynamic design to reduce the spread whereabouts. At the same time, will further develop similar 'Falcon 9' rocket landed in the sea platform vertical orientation recycling technology rocket body, so that the whereabouts of a rocket body process can be fully controlled, fixed-point landing. "

Du Tao said: "The reusable rocket is our ultimate goal, I think, when the Rockets 'wings', as the plane landed at the airport, as slowly landed on the ground if the technology allows, may even be replaced. now the vertical takeoff, to achieve the level of take-off. "
"

:D i'm sorry for the confusion
Enjoy the ride

Offline Galactic Penguin SST

Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #381 on: 10/10/2016 08:05 AM »
Thanks, that was news to me. CALT only talked about winged boosters for preventing drop zone issues previously.  ;)
Chinese spaceflight is a cosmic riddle wrapped in a galactic mystery inside an orbital enigma... - (not) Winston Churchill

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #382 on: 10/10/2016 08:08 AM »
The video on that page instead showed a lunar mission using three CZ-5TZ launches (CZ-5 variant - 50 t to LEO).

That's a complicated architecture! Attached is a zip file of screen grabs I made of the video.

Perhaps a simpler architecture would be as follows. Note that we don't use a third stage to perform Earth orbital insertion. This is done by the second stage. The performance would be a less, but this is made up by using a Cryogenic Propulsion Stage (CPS) for LOI and staged Lunar descent.

1) CZ-5TZ launches first propellant module. Loiters in orbit with third stage.
2) CZ-5TZ launches second propellant module. Loiters in orbit with third stage.
3) CZ-5TZ launches Shenzhou with orbital module, Lunar Module and CPS. Shenzhou undocks, jettisons spacecraft adaptor, turns around and docks with Lunar module.
4) Complex docks with first propellant module and transfers propellant to second stage.
5) Complex docks with second propellant module and transfers propellant to second stage.
6) Second stage performs TLI. After TLI, second stage separates from CPS.
7) CPS performs LOI. Crew transfers to Lunar Module.
8) CPS and Lunar Module undock from Shenzhou. CPS performs staged descent and separates 500 m/s from landing.
9) Lunar Module lands on Moon. Lunar module has two movable throttleable engines for landing and one fixed position and thrust ascent engine. Multiple engines provide backup in case of problem.
10) LM Crew and Propulsion Module separates from non-propulsive Landing and Cargo Module to ascend to LLO and dock with Shenzhou.
11) Shenzhou undocks from Lunar Modules and performs TEI.
12) Shenzhou separates from orbital and service modules and enter Earth's atmosphere.
13) Shenzhou deploys parachutes and land on Earth.

Chinese Hardware Complexity
12 CZ-5TZ Boosters
3 CZ-5TZ First Stages
3 CZ-5TZ Second stages
3 TLI Stages
3 LOI stages
6 Fairing Halves
1 LAS
1 LM Descent Stage
1 LM Ascent Stage
1 Service Module
1 Descent Module
1 Orbital Module
36 Elements (13 unique, 9 unique propulsive stages)
35 Separations
3 Dockings

My Hardware Complexity
12 CZ-5TZ Boosters
3 CZ-5TZ First Stages
3 CZ-5TZ Second Stages
1 CPS
6 Fairing Halves
1 LAS
2 Propellant Modules
1 LM Crew and Propulsion Module
1 LM Landing and Cargo Module
1 Service Module
1 Descent Module
1 Orbital Module
33 elements (13 unique, 7 unique propulsive stages)
31 Separations
4 Dockings

Apollo Saturn V
1 S-IC
1 Interstage
1 S-II
1 S-IVB
3 Fairings
1 LAS
1 LM Descent Stage
1 LM Ascent Stage
1 Service Module
1 Command Module
12 Elements (10 unique, 8 unique propulsive stages)
13 Separations
2 Dockings
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Online Phillip Clark

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #383 on: 10/10/2016 08:12 AM »
Is the CZ-5TZ plan a firm, funded one?   I thought that it was a proposal (with the CZ-5DY) that was replaced by the CZ-9 concept.   There has been talk of using the uprated CZ-5 as a short-term landing to be followed by the main CZ-9 missions, but I have always thought that this was western chit-chat rather than a firm Chinese plan.

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #384 on: 10/10/2016 08:46 AM »
Is the CZ-5TZ plan a firm, funded one?

I believe China is only currently performing studies of Lunar landing missions. This looks like just one of the options being studied. I guess we'll know if China will be actually going when the next five year plan comes out.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline luhai167

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #385 on: 10/10/2016 06:14 PM »
No news on the CZ-9 yet, the forums are still all speculation. I have a feeling the the real push for it will have to come from demand side, where China outlines a concrete manned moon landing or ambitious deep space missions that can't fulfilled by the CZ-5.

http://bbs.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=14894&extra=page%3D1&page=59


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Offline ืnewsman

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #386 on: 02/27/2017 02:35 PM »
China's biggest manufacturer of carrier rockets will soon begin to develop the next-generation Long March 8 medium-lift carrier rocket to meet the demands of commercial launch service, according to a senior manager.

Li Tongyu, head of carrier rocket development at the China Academy of Launch Vehicle Technology, told China Daily that the Long March 8 will have a modular design and will use engines that have been used by the Long March 5 and Long March 7, both new rockets developed by the academy.

"Its core stage will be based on those used by the Long March 7 and Long March 3A, and it will have two solid-propelled boosters that are 2 meters in diameter," he said. "We will spend up to three years on its development and if everything goes well, its maiden flight will take place by the end of 2018."

Long March 8 will be capable of sending a payload of about 4.5 metric tons to a sun-synchronous orbit, or 2.5 tons to geosynchronous transfer orbit, he said. In a sun-synchronous orbit, a satellite circles the Earth at the same rate that the Earth orbits the sun, whereas with a geosynchronous orbit, the satellite matches the rotation of the Earth.

Li said use of the Long March 8 will extensively reduce the launch costs of low- and middle-orbit satellites, giving it bright prospects in the commercial launch market.

Researchers at the academy are currently developing the latest variant of the Long March 5 heavy-lift carrier rocket. It will be tasked with placing the core module of the country's space station into orbit in 2018, he noted.

China plans to put a manned space station into service around 2022. It will consist of three parts — a core module attached to two space labs, each of which weigh about 20 tons. The facility is expected to be the world's only space station after the planned retirement of the International Space Station in 2024.

The first model in the country's heavy-lift rocket family, the 57-meter-tall Long March 5, made its maiden flight in November. It is China's mightiest carrier rocket and one of the world's most powerful launch vehicles currently in operation.

The second launch of the Long March 5 will be made in June to lift a large communications satellite into space. Before the end of 2017, China will conduct the rocket's third mission, sending the Chang'e 5 lunar probe to the moon, according to Li.

The China Academy of Launch Vehicle Technology also has opened preliminary research on a super-heavy rocket that will have a takeoff weight of 3,000 tons and can transport a 140-ton payload into low Earth orbit.

If research and development go well, the super-heavy rocket will carry out its first flight around 2030, allowing China to land astronauts on the moon, and to send and retrieve Mars probes, designers at the academy said.

Space business booms: Over 80 launches in next 3 years

China's rocket scientists should plan on being quite busy in the next three years.

More than 80 launch missions are set during that time, according to the research head of the China Academy of Launch Vehicle Technology, the country's biggest rocket developer.

Users have confirmed schedules for 84 launch missions before 2020, and the academy plans to produce 100 Long March carrier rockets in the coming three years to meet the demand, Li Tongyu, director of carrier rocket development at the academy, told China Daily.

"Our Long March rockets have been recognized by domestic and foreign clients as being good and reliable. The academy's products have fulfilled 162 out of the nation's 245 spaceflights," he said.

Models of the academy's rockets, including the new Long March 5 and Long March 7, will be displayed at the 2017 Australian International Airshow and Aerospace and Defense Exposition in Geelong, Victoria, from Tuesday to Sunday.

"Our rockets are completely compatible with satellites developed by the United States and Europe. Our charges and insurance premiums are more competitive than those of others. Our upper stage, with engines that can be repeatedly started, allows clients to send multiple satellites into different orbits during a single mission, which means they can save a lot of money," Li said. "We want to use the air show to meet our potential clients to know what they need and to figure out solutions."

China has been a major player in the international commercial launch market since the 1990s, when it started to provide launch service to overseas clients.

China has fulfilled more than 50 commercial missions, carrying 60 satellites into space for overseas firms.

In China, a commercial space mission generally refers to a space activity financed by an entity other than a Chinese government or military agency.

Li said while the Long March 5 and Long March 7 have received many orders from Chinese authorities and will have a tight launch schedule, the academy also is seeking more business from the international market.

As China's new-generation heavy-lift rocket, the Long March 5 has a liftoff weight of 870 metric tons, a maximum payload capacity of 25 tons to low Earth orbit and 14 tons to geosynchronous transfer orbit, where the orbit matches the Earth's rotation. The Long March 7, with a liftoff weight of 597 tons, can send 13.5 tons into low Earth orbit and 5.5 tons into sun-synchronous orbit.

The academy founded ChinaRocket Co in October to tap the commercial launch market. The new company will put four types of rockets developed by the academy into the market, covering all orbits suitable for commercial space missions, its managers said.

Han Qingping, president of ChinaRocket, previously said his company will develop a reusable spacecraft to ferry travelers to around 100 kilometers above the Earth to experience weightlessness.

http://www.chinadailyasia.com/nation/2017-02/27/content_15577845.html

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #387 on: 03/01/2017 07:42 AM »
Here't the website for ChinaRocket. A lot of news posts in May 2015, but nothing since then. Interesting the article mentions that they are looking into suborbital tourism. They confirm first launch of CZ-9 in 2030. First launch of CZ-8 in late 2018.

http://apmt.cn/en/index.aspx
« Last Edit: 03/01/2017 07:46 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Liss

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #388 on: 03/01/2017 09:27 PM »
Here't the website for ChinaRocket. A lot of news posts in May 2015, but nothing since then. Interesting the article mentions that they are looking into suborbital tourism. They confirm first launch of CZ-9 in 2030. First launch of CZ-8 in late 2018.

http://apmt.cn/en/index.aspx
So ChinaRocket is just a renamed Asia Pacific Mobile Telecommunications, the operator of APStar satellites.
This message reflects my personal opinion based on open sources of information.

Offline Galactic Penguin SST

Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #389 on: 03/04/2017 01:13 PM »
As promised earlier, here are some of the new things found in this paper(*) written by people at CALT:

(*) Qin X D, Long L H, Rong Y.
The achievement and future of China space transportation system [J]
Journal of Deep Space Exploration, 2016, 3 (4): 315-322


- The often talked about CZ-8 is what some people once called the "CZ-722S" (and called CZ-822S here), using the existing CZ-7 first stage topped with the current hydrogen upper stage of the CZ-3 series as the 2nd stage. Two 120 t class, 2 meter diameter twin segment SRBs (thrust comparable with those on the Atlas V) are added to form the baseline version, capable of 4.5 tonnes to Sun-synchronous orbit (or 7.6 tonnes to LEO/2.5 tonnes to GTO). A "CZ-820" core only version can carries 3.0 tonnes to polar orbit.

I personally don't think it to be cheap for heavier polar orbit missions (though it reminds me of the "Taurus II-mini-Centaur" that Antonio Elias mentioned 10 years ago on this forum, way before Antares flies, with similar performance), given the LH2 upper stage, but maybe CALT can find enough missions to make it work. It will face fierce competition with SAST's CZ-6A (not mentioned in this paper) though.

- The GTO bound CZ-7 versions are called "CZ-3D" and "CZ-3E" in this paper (though I have seen different names in other papers). The CZ-7 + CZ-3 LH2 stage version is the "CZ-3D", 7.0 tonnes to GTO/4.2 tonnes to lunar transfer orbit and 3.0 tonnes to navigation sats MEO. A "CZ-3E" with the CZ-7 plus a RP-1 3rd stage with a single YF-115 engine is also mentioned that can lift 5.2 tonnes to GTO.

(note however that the text paragraph calls the 1st stage as a "tri-core" configuration.....dunno if there's a mistake out there)

As mentioned by me some time ago, the 3.5 stages combination doesn't look attractive to me in terms of costs and reliability, but maybe that's the best the Chinese can do right now.....

- CZ-9's newest configuration ("CZ-934") seems to have 4 new 480 tonnes thrust twin chamber stage combustion RP-1 engines on a 10 meter diameter (some say 9.5) as the 1st stage, 4 boosters with 2 480 tonnes engines, 2 220 tonnes LH2 engines on 2nd stage (also 10 meters in diameter) and the existing CZ-5 upper LH2 stage as the 3rd stage. Performance were given as 140 t LEO/66 t GTO/50 t LTO/37 t MEO. Note however that the article also mentioned that the design is also comparable with large SRBs so the design is still far from frozen.....

- CALT is studying an 4 stage solid air launch rocket dropped from the Y-20 military transport jet, with capability of no less than 200 kg to 700 km high polar orbits.

- The name "YZ-3" has been confirmed for the SAST small sat upper stage that will fly on the CZ-2D and CZ-4 series, probably within this year.
Chinese spaceflight is a cosmic riddle wrapped in a galactic mystery inside an orbital enigma... - (not) Winston Churchill

Offline Nordren

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #390 on: 03/04/2017 01:23 PM »

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #391 on: 03/05/2017 01:35 AM »
- CZ-9's newest configuration ("CZ-934") seems to have 4 new 480 tonnes thrust twin chamber stage combustion RP-1 engines on a 10 meter diameter (some say 9.5) as the 1st stage, 4 boosters with 2 480 tonnes engines, 2 220 tonnes LH2 engines on 2nd stage (also 10 meters in diameter) and the existing CZ-5 upper LH2 stage as the 3rd stage. Performance were given as 140 t LEO/66 t GTO/50 t LTO/37 t MEO. Note however that the article also mentioned that the design is also comparable with large SRBs so the design is still far from frozen.....

Thanks Galactic Penguin. Twelve 480 tf (4.7 MN) motors gives it a lift-off thrust of 56.5 MN, nearly double the Saturn V!
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Galactic Penguin SST

Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #392 on: 03/07/2017 10:33 AM »
- CALT is studying an 4 stage solid air launch rocket dropped from the Y-20 military transport jet, with capability of no less than 200 kg to 700 km high polar orbits.

And here's a news article today about this proposal with quotes from CALT heads! http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2017-03/07/content_28456507.htm

Looks like they are proposing dropping it out of the back door of the Y-20 instead of carrying it under the belly.
Chinese spaceflight is a cosmic riddle wrapped in a galactic mystery inside an orbital enigma... - (not) Winston Churchill

Offline input~2

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #393 on: 03/07/2017 12:31 PM »
Here't the website for ChinaRocket. A lot of news posts in May 2015, but nothing since then. Interesting the article mentions that they are looking into suborbital tourism. They confirm first launch of CZ-9 in 2030. First launch of CZ-8 in late 2018.

http://apmt.cn/en/index.aspx
So ChinaRocket is just a renamed Asia Pacific Mobile Telecommunications, the operator of APStar satellites.
AFAIU the operator of APStar satellites is APT Satellite Co. Ltd, a subsidiary of CASC, based in Hong-Kong. APMT is a subsidiary of CALT, another subsidiary of CASC

Offline Satori

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Offline cheesybagel

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #395 on: 07/02/2017 01:23 AM »
I had not seen this video about the CZ-5 transportation from Tianjin to Wenchang before:
« Last Edit: 07/02/2017 01:39 AM by cheesybagel »

Online Lars-J

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #396 on: 07/02/2017 05:32 AM »
- CZ-9's newest configuration ("CZ-934") seems to have 4 new 480 tonnes thrust twin chamber stage combustion RP-1 engines on a 10 meter diameter (some say 9.5) as the 1st stage, 4 boosters with 2 480 tonnes engines, 2 220 tonnes LH2 engines on 2nd stage (also 10 meters in diameter) and the existing CZ-5 upper LH2 stage as the 3rd stage. Performance were given as 140 t LEO/66 t GTO/50 t LTO/37 t MEO. Note however that the article also mentioned that the design is also comparable with large SRBs so the design is still far from frozen.....

Thanks Galactic Penguin. Twelve 480 tf (4.7 MN) motors gives it a lift-off thrust of 56.5 MN, nearly double the Saturn V!

I'm surprised the payload then only slightly exceeds the Saturn V. A brute force approach, then. :) 

(This is another reason I don't see this as a very serious venture... Chinese technology should be able to do better. It seems more like a reaction to SLS. If When SLS is cancelled, I expect the CZ-9 to morph into something else)
« Last Edit: 07/02/2017 06:38 AM by Lars-J »

Online Phillip Clark

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #397 on: 07/02/2017 06:19 AM »
Surely you mean *when* the SLS is cancelled?

Online Lars-J

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #398 on: 07/02/2017 06:38 AM »
Fixed!  :)

Online SmallKing

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #399 on: 07/06/2017 05:09 AM »
During Long March Commercial Launch Users Conference today, CGWIC introduced some new rockets
CZ-734 CBC configuration and low cost CZ-8A which will have its maiden flight on 2019
Launch Land Relaunch

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