Author Topic: Blue Moon Lunar Lander  (Read 28059 times)

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: Blue Moon Lunar Lander
« Reply #40 on: 04/06/2017 02:15 AM »
Please note that no one has demonstrated a hydrolox stage with ZBO necessary for such a mission.

Also, a methalox propulsion lander would need a similar means as well.

Online Robotbeat

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Re: Blue Moon Lunar Lander
« Reply #41 on: 04/06/2017 02:37 AM »
Why do we need zero boil-off, again? Oh right, we don't. Small amount of boil-off is fine.
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Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: Blue Moon Lunar Lander
« Reply #42 on: 04/06/2017 03:29 AM »
Why do we need zero boil-off, again? Oh right, we don't. Small amount of boil-off is fine.
Ok.

Please calculate the boil-off for a hydrolox stage that launches to parking orbit, does TLI, coasts 3-4 days, does LOI to LLO, two orbits - about 8-10 hours, does PDI,  and hour of life and perhaps a braking burn.

You'll find irrespective of the other requirement of continuous power to keep the stage alive (something like a kilowatt base, improvable with stage power downs / bring ups, which are a bit chancy beyond prelaunch conditioning) that you'll lose a minimum of 60-70% of your props over that time.

If you don't, I'd really love to see how you bring that off, and so would a lot of other talented folk. Oh, and that's not all - remember its an US and all that goes with it, including the mass budget to do so.

In short, it's all about weight budget and getting payload to the surface. With ZBF your trades for preserving mass look the best.

If we're to be doing Amazon Prime to the lunar surface, perhaps you don't want to end up just delivering a bag of Kona coffee with each mission?

Offline daveklingler

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Re: Blue Moon Lunar Lander
« Reply #43 on: 04/06/2017 06:05 AM »
Why do we need zero boil-off, again? Oh right, we don't. Small amount of boil-off is fine.
Ok.

Please calculate the boil-off for a hydrolox stage that launches to parking orbit, does TLI, coasts 3-4 days, does LOI to LLO, two orbits - about 8-10 hours, does PDI,  and hour of life and perhaps a braking burn.

With passive thermal management and 40 MLI layers, about 8% annually for an EELV-sized hydrogen tank, or about 2-3% per year for the same number of layers on a 200 mt tank.  I think the claim was pretty close to zero for ACES with IVF.  Unless I'm missing something? 

ACES with a XEUS kit?

http://www.ulalaunch.com/uploads/docs/Published_Papers/Upper_Stages/ACES-Stage_Concept-AIAASpace_2015.pdf

« Last Edit: 04/06/2017 06:06 AM by daveklingler »

Offline yg1968

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Offline daveklingler

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Re: Blue Moon Lunar Lander
« Reply #45 on: 04/08/2017 01:20 AM »
Or one can just put 25 tons on the lunar surface and return to orbit with something a little more elaborate.  :)

http://www.ulalaunch.com/uploads/docs/Published_Papers/Upper_Stages/ACES-Stage_Concept-AIAASpace_2015.pdf

I have a sneaking suspicion that Blue and ULA will find more areas of cooperation over the next few years.  A NG would do a nice job tanking up an ACES depot in L2.

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Blue Moon Lunar Lander
« Reply #46 on: 04/26/2017 03:01 PM »
From today's senate hearing:

Quote
Jeff Foust‏ @jeff_foust

Meyerson: Blue willing to invest in “Blue Moon” lunar lander concept in partnership with NASA; return to Moon worthy national goal.
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/857242844934877185

Quote
Eric Berger ‏Verified account @SciGuySpace

Eric Berger Retweeted Jeff Foust

Willing to invest "significantly." Which IMO is significant.
https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/857242959653351424

Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: Blue Moon Lunar Lander
« Reply #47 on: 04/26/2017 08:47 PM »
From today's senate hearing:

Quote
Jeff Foust‏ @jeff_foust

Meyerson: Blue willing to invest in “Blue Moon” lunar lander concept in partnership with NASA; return to Moon worthy national goal.
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/857242844934877185

Quote
Eric Berger ‏Verified account @SciGuySpace

Eric Berger Retweeted Jeff Foust

Willing to invest "significantly." Which IMO is significant.
https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/857242959653351424
Ok, so now it is only a question of When not If.

It will happen, but when will the first launch of the BML occur?
Did he mention a NET date for first landing?

Online FishInferno

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Re: Blue Moon Lunar Lander
« Reply #48 on: 09/30/2017 01:29 AM »
I hope SpaceX's announcement of BFR being capable of Lunar landings puts enough pressure on BO to finally release something juicy about Blue Moon.
Comparing SpaceX and SLS is like comparing paying people to plant fruit trees with merely digging holes and filling them.  - Robotbeat

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Blue Moon Lunar Lander
« Reply #49 on: 09/30/2017 02:15 AM »
Just send moneytm
I hear those things are awfully loud. It glides as softly as a cloud. What's it called? Monowhale!

Re: Blue Moon Lunar Lander
« Reply #50 on: 10/06/2017 12:36 AM »
So at the first National Space Council meeting today, the concept of returning to the Moon within 5 years was brought up in the first panel. Blue Origin was in the second, and said that the Blue Moon lander could be completed "...within the next 5 years."

The video of the meeting is available on the White House YouTube channel. The comment about Blue Moon is at 1:05:25

Offline savuporo

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Re: Blue Moon Lunar Lander
« Reply #51 on: 10/06/2017 02:13 AM »
So far it's pleasing to hear about the Blue Moon Lander.  Perhaps it will be to Luna what Red Dragon may be to Mars. ..

Careful with what you wish for.
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline GWH

Re: Blue Moon Lunar Lander
« Reply #52 on: 12/12/2017 02:22 PM »
With all this back to the moon business and the (possible) need for landers I was thinking it's a shame Blue Moon is so small with "only" 4500 kg cargo payload to the surface. So I looked at history...

The Apollo Lunar Ascent Module massed 4700kg fully fueled - without astronauts. That's close enough to either be an extremely interesting coincidence or frustratingly just short of a possible 2 person lunar lander.


That's assuming a 2 stage architecture, a single stage would have plenty or margin IF supported by ISRU.
« Last Edit: 12/12/2017 03:16 PM by GWH »

Online jebbo

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Re: Blue Moon Lunar Lander
« Reply #53 on: 01/22/2018 06:36 PM »
Quote
Blue Moon is designed to fly on any launch vehicle, including SLS, Atlas V, Vulcan and New Glenn. Delivering large payloads to the lunar surface, Blue Moon can help put astronauts on the moon – this time to stay. #BlueMoon #Apollo50th

https://twitter.com/blueorigin/status/955509552878821376

Edit: from looking at the terminator on earth, clearly a polar landing. I think north, as I think you can just about make out Alaska & Antarctica though I wouldn't bet on it ;-)
« Last Edit: 01/22/2018 07:37 PM by jebbo »

Offline AncientU

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Re: Blue Moon Lunar Lander
« Reply #54 on: 01/22/2018 09:21 PM »
Shadows from lander would be much longer on Lunar pole, and would extend toward Earth on the horizon (maybe actually below the horizon) and to the right a bit. 
Image is actually impossible shadows-wise, just a nice photo-shop.
« Last Edit: 01/22/2018 09:22 PM by AncientU »
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Online jebbo

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Re: Blue Moon Lunar Lander
« Reply #55 on: 01/23/2018 06:30 AM »
True ;)

--- Tony

Offline su27k

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Re: Blue Moon Lunar Lander
« Reply #56 on: 07/04/2018 04:22 AM »
Blue Origin targets moon landing by 2023 as an early step toward lunar settlement

Quote
Charania said “we’re actively working on the descent stage for Blue Moon, the capabilities, the partnerships that are required to enable that service … to start going back to the moon with larger and larger payloads.”

Online Semmel

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Re: Blue Moon Lunar Lander
« Reply #57 on: 07/04/2018 10:37 AM »
Blue Origin targets moon landing by 2023 as an early step toward lunar settlement

Quote
Charania said “we’re actively working on the descent stage for Blue Moon, the capabilities, the partnerships that are required to enable that service … to start going back to the moon with larger and larger payloads.”

Cool, hope they reach earth orbit by that time too! :)

Offline woods170

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Re: Blue Moon Lunar Lander
« Reply #58 on: 07/04/2018 10:53 AM »
Blue Origin targets moon landing by 2023 as an early step toward lunar settlement

Quote
Charania said “we’re actively working on the descent stage for Blue Moon, the capabilities, the partnerships that are required to enable that service … to start going back to the moon with larger and larger payloads.”

Cool, hope they reach earth orbit by that time too! :)

Actually, they would be better off having reached Earth orbit a few years before that.
« Last Edit: 07/04/2018 10:54 AM by woods170 »

Offline SciNews

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Re: Blue Moon Lunar Lander
« Reply #59 on: 10/03/2018 05:44 PM »
Blue Origin | “Let’s go to the Moon” is key focus at IAC 2018 https://www.blueorigin.com/news/news/lets-go-to-the-moon-is-key-focus-at-iac-2018

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