Poll

When will full-scale hot-fire testing of Raptor begin?

Component tests - 2017
3 (0.6%)
Component tests - 2018
21 (4.2%)
Integrated tests -  2017
19 (3.8%)
Integrated tests -  2018
237 (47%)
Integrated tests -  2019
181 (35.9%)
Raptor is not physically scaled up
33 (6.5%)
Never
10 (2%)

Total Members Voted: 504


Author Topic: SpaceX Raptor engine (Super Heavy/Starship Propulsion) - General Thread 1  (Read 869833 times)

Online butters

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Re: ITS Propulsion – The evolution of the SpaceX Raptor engine
« Reply #540 on: 10/20/2017 06:17 am »

They're both at about the same thrust currently, though this will change as duration and power level increases with next steps.

Are you seriously claiming that BE-4 is only running at about 40% thrust currently?

Eric Berger's article at ARSTechnica says the test was at 50% thrust: https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/10/blue-origin-has-successfully-tested-its-powerful-be-4-rocket-engine/

Still... there is a big difference between a fullscale engine being tested at a lower thrust level and a subscale development engine.

Was there evidence that the Raptor engine tested is physically subscale relative to the 9m BFR proposal? It's certainly being tested below design thrust at 200 bar chamber pressure vs. 250-300 bar design target. But is it any smaller in physical dimensions?
« Last Edit: 10/20/2017 06:19 am by butters »

Offline livingjw

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Re: ITS Propulsion – The evolution of the SpaceX Raptor engine
« Reply #541 on: 10/20/2017 11:36 am »
Raptor Demo engine exit diameter was a little under a meter (~.94) as measured from photograph and was supposedly putting out 1MN at 20 MPa. If we take that as a given, then the Raptor Engine will be about a 15% larger throat diameter.

John
« Last Edit: 10/20/2017 11:49 am by livingjw »

Offline envy887

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Re: ITS Propulsion – The evolution of the SpaceX Raptor engine
« Reply #542 on: 10/20/2017 02:20 pm »

They're both at about the same thrust currently, though this will change as duration and power level increases with next steps.

Are you seriously claiming that BE-4 is only running at about 40% thrust currently?

Eric Berger's article at ARSTechnica says the test was at 50% thrust: https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/10/blue-origin-has-successfully-tested-its-powerful-be-4-rocket-engine/

Still... there is a big difference between a fullscale engine being tested at a lower thrust level and a subscale development engine.

Yes, there is a big difference. Running subscale at 3000 psi is way harder than full scale at 1000 psi.

Offline acsawdey

Still... there is a big difference between a fullscale engine being tested at a lower thrust level and a subscale development engine.

Yes, there is a big difference. Running subscale at 3000 psi is way harder than full scale at 1000 psi.

This. They have not even reached the chamber pressures that M1D runs at, much less Raptor or RD-180. Also livingjw's calculations show that it's not a very big scale-up that SpaceX needs, only 15%.

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: ITS Propulsion – The evolution of the SpaceX Raptor engine
« Reply #544 on: 10/20/2017 03:38 pm »
Does any one have more on this tweet earlier today:

Quote
SpaceX gets another $40.8 million in Pentagon funding for Raptor engine

https://twitter.com/R_Wall/status/921257396797870080

The tweet doesn't appear to be a reply to anything else, sounds like new money?

Edit: forgot to say that Robert Wall is aerospace reporter for WSJ
« Last Edit: 10/20/2017 03:39 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

Online gongora

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Re: ITS Propulsion – The evolution of the SpaceX Raptor engine
« Reply #545 on: 10/20/2017 03:45 pm »
Does any one have more on this tweet earlier today:

Quote
SpaceX gets another $40.8 million in Pentagon funding for Raptor engine

https://twitter.com/R_Wall/status/921257396797870080

The tweet doesn't appear to be a reply to anything else, sounds like new money?

Edit: forgot to say that Robert Wall is aerospace reporter for WSJ

https://www.defense.gov/News/Contracts/Contract-View/Article/1348379/
Space Exploration Technologies Corp., Hawthorne, California, has been awarded a $40,766,512 modification (P00007) for the development of the Raptor rocket propulsion system prototype for the Evolved Expendable Launch Vehicle program.  Work will be performed at NASA Stennis Space Center, Mississippi; Hawthorne, California; McGregor, Texas; and Los Angeles Air Force Base, California; and is expected to be complete by April 30, 2018.  Fiscal 2017 research, development, test and evaluation funds in the amount of $40,766,512 are being obligated at the time of award.  The Launch Systems Enterprise Directorate, Space and Missile Systems Center, Los Angeles AFB, California, is the contracting activity (FA8811-16-9-0001).

Offline speedevil

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Re: ITS Propulsion – The evolution of the SpaceX Raptor engine
« Reply #546 on: 10/20/2017 03:48 pm »
Does any one have more on this tweet earlier today:

Quote
SpaceX gets another $40.8 million in Pentagon funding for Raptor engine

https://twitter.com/R_Wall/status/921257396797870080

The tweet doesn't appear to be a reply to anything else, sounds like new money?

Edit: forgot to say that Robert Wall is aerospace reporter for WSJ

https://spaceflightnow.com/2016/03/07/ulas-candidates-to-replace-rd-180-engine-win-air-force-funding/

Quote
ULA has agreed to initially add $40.8 million under the terms of the government award.
I wonder if some wires have been crossed.

There has of course been the recent air force proposal for a call for bids to do various rocket development stuff, but that was not due for a while yet.
« Last Edit: 10/20/2017 03:50 pm by speedevil »

Online matthewkantar

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Re: ITS Propulsion – The evolution of the SpaceX Raptor engine
« Reply #547 on: 10/20/2017 04:34 pm »
I really hope this 40 million doesn't reignite Raptor upper stage fever.

Offline Lars-J

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Re: ITS Propulsion – The evolution of the SpaceX Raptor engine
« Reply #548 on: 10/20/2017 06:20 pm »
I really hope this 40 million doesn't reignite Raptor upper stage fever.

But they do plan to fly a Raptor based upper stage in a few years - BFS.  8)

Online Jakusb

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Offline speedevil

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Re: ITS Propulsion – The evolution of the SpaceX Raptor engine
« Reply #550 on: 10/20/2017 09:43 pm »
Related to this?
https://www.dodbuzz.com/2017/10/06/air-force-seeks-next-gen-launch-vehicles-for-space-missions/

Which was just announced, and has some long way to go until the contracts are awarded.
Any decision to award anything at this time would be extraordinarily vulnerable to challenge, if not flat-out illegal. (unsure on the latter).


Online gongora

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Re: ITS Propulsion – The evolution of the SpaceX Raptor engine
« Reply #551 on: 10/20/2017 09:44 pm »
Related to this?
https://www.dodbuzz.com/2017/10/06/air-force-seeks-next-gen-launch-vehicles-for-space-missions/

No, that is still in RFP stage.  The thread for that is here: USAF RFP for new EELV Launch Service Agreements (2017-10-05)

This money is a continuation of their previous contract from January 2016:
Quote
Space Exploration Technologies, Corp. (SpaceX), Hawthorne, California, has been awarded a $33,660,254 other transaction agreement for the development of the Raptor rocket propulsion system prototype for the Evolved Expendable Launch Vehicle (EELV) program. This agreement implements Section 1604 of the Fiscal Year 2015 National Defense Authorization Act, which requires the development of a next-generation rocket propulsion system that will transition away from the use of the Russian-supplied RD-180 engine to a domestic alternative for National Security Space launches. An other transaction agreement was used in lieu of a standard procurement contract in order to leverage on-going investment by industry in rocket propulsion systems. This other transaction agreement requires shared cost investment with SpaceX for the development of a prototype of the Raptor engine for the upper stage of the Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy launch vehicles. The locations of performance are NASA Stennis Space Center, Mississippi; Hawthorne, California; and Los Angeles Air Force Base, California. The work is expected to be completed no later than Dec. 31, 2018. Air Force fiscal 2015 research, development, test and evaluation funds in the amount of $33,660,254 are being obligated at the time of award.  SpaceX is contributing $67,320,506 at the time of award. The total potential government investment, including all options, is $61,392,710. The total potential investment by SpaceX, including all options, is $122,785,419. This award is the result of a competitive acquisition with multiple offers received. The Launch Systems Enterprise Directorate, Space and Missile Systems Center, Los Angeles Air Force Base, California is the contracting activity (FA8811-16-9-0001).
.

Offline speedevil

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Re: ITS Propulsion – The evolution of the SpaceX Raptor engine
« Reply #552 on: 10/20/2017 11:03 pm »
...
Quote
Air Force fiscal 2015 research, development, test and evaluation funds in the amount of $33,660,254 are being obligated at the time of award.  SpaceX is contributing $67,320,506 at the time of award The total potential government investment, including all options, is $61,392,710. .
.

$61M-$33M does not equal $40M. I have not looked if more money has been allocated.

Offline vaporcobra

Still... there is a big difference between a fullscale engine being tested at a lower thrust level and a subscale development engine.

Yes, there is a big difference. Running subscale at 3000 psi is way harder than full scale at 1000 psi.

This. They have not even reached the chamber pressures that M1D runs at, much less Raptor or RD-180. Also livingjw's calculations show that it's not a very big scale-up that SpaceX needs, only 15%.

Precisely. Not to mention the fact that FFSC is definitively more difficult than ORSC, which has a long and successful heritage. BE-4's thrust to weight ratio is going to be less than impressive, even if it is an impressive technical accomplishment as a whole.

Raptor is all about efficiency  and reliability. As Musk put it in the AMA last weekend, "thrust scaling is the easy part.... very simple to scale the dev Raptor to 170 tons", the focus now has moved on to optimizing for reliability and TWR.

Online gongora

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Re: ITS Propulsion – The evolution of the SpaceX Raptor engine
« Reply #554 on: 10/21/2017 01:33 am »
$61M-$33M does not equal $40M. I have not looked if more money has been allocated.

It looks like they did increase the amount at some point, but we may need to wait for this latest one to flow through the systems into the publicly available databases (govtribe or fpds.gov) before we can even have a chance of figuring out where it stands now.

Here is the original contract and the latest mod in June 2017.

Offline watermod

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Re: ITS Propulsion – The evolution of the SpaceX Raptor engine
« Reply #555 on: 10/21/2017 03:20 am »
looking at the dates... did they buy the test engine?
Its only a few months start to end.

Online docmordrid

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Re: ITS Propulsion – The evolution of the SpaceX Raptor engine
« Reply #556 on: 10/21/2017 07:53 am »
When the tweet about the $40.8B was posted on the FB fan group self described SpaceXer Phillip Aubin replied,

https://www.facebook.com/groups/spacexgroup/permalink/10155943228621318/

"All I can say is: The people who complain the most are the ones NOT putting payloads into orbit on a monthly basis, if not even shorter."
« Last Edit: 10/21/2017 08:00 am by docmordrid »
DM

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: ITS Propulsion – The evolution of the SpaceX Raptor engine
« Reply #557 on: 10/21/2017 08:45 pm »
Here's a write-up of the additional Raptor funding and current status of Raptor development:

Quote
Air Force adds more than $40 million to SpaceX engine contract
by Jeff Foust — October 21, 2017

http://spacenews.com/air-force-adds-more-than-40-million-to-spacex-engine-contract/
« Last Edit: 10/21/2017 08:45 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: ITS Propulsion – The evolution of the SpaceX Raptor engine
« Reply #558 on: 10/21/2017 08:54 pm »
This is proof that Raptor is way behind even ULA's AR-1 engine. They have to start power-pack tests again for the full scale engine at Stennis. Full Raptor development is going to take at least 2 years.

What I find typical is that: 33.6mln + 67.3 mln = 100.9mln development cost for 1MN raptor.
?what was the prometheus engine development going to cost?
« Last Edit: 10/21/2017 09:01 pm by Rik ISS-fan »

Offline vaporcobra

This is proof that Raptor is way behind even ULA's AR-1 engine. They have to start power-pack tests again for the full scale engine at Stennis. Full Raptor development is going to take at least 2 years.

What I find typical is that: 33.6mln + 67.3 mln = 100.9mln development cost for 1MN raptor.
?what was the prometheus engine going to cost?

🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

So many issues with this comment, don't even know where to begin. Contract you cited actually shows that the completion date has been accelerated to April 2018, six months from now. Raptor did tests of the preburner in 2015, AR-1 literally only completed its first preburner test this year. Raptor has 1200+ seconds of firing, AR-1 has zero seconds.


Taken directly from Musk's mouth and educated estimates in this very thread, Raptor scaling is of little concern and the physical scaling needed is less than 20%.

Also, AR-1 is being developed by Aerojet-Rocketdyne, not ULA. Hence AR.
« Last Edit: 10/21/2017 09:10 pm by vaporcobra »

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