Author Topic: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal  (Read 5282 times)

Offline calapine

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #20 on: 02/21/2017 12:03 PM »
Futura Sciences reports about possible ways forward for Ariane Next.

Two hypotheses are highlighted.

Scenario 1: The Ariane 6 family proofs adequate for the demand of ESA and sat operators for the next 20 - 30 years.

In this case only an evolution would be required. Under consideration: Ariane 6.6 (6 SRB, 13 tons to GTO) to meet increasing satellite masses combined with (or instead of): 1a) an replacement of Vulcain 2.1 with Prométhée, 2b) an upgraded version of th Vinci upper stage engine.

Scenario 2: The market for mega constellations takes off, a Soyuz-like launch cadence of 50 launches per year is required.

This isn't considered achievable with Ariane 6, the answer would be an all new launcher with that lists several of the buzzwords I already mentioned in my earlier post (launcher least partially re-usable, upper stage re-use (3 to 5 round trips) achieved with re-fuelling in orbit, high-cadence production that is flexible if the market contracts).

Full article: Ariane Next : à quoi ressemblera le successeur d’Ariane 6

To me this sounds like the typical European 'hedging of bets' and 'waiting to see what the other side does'.
« Last Edit: 02/21/2017 12:06 PM by calapine »

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #21 on: 02/28/2017 04:10 PM »
I deem senario 1: Drop-in replacement of Promethee instead of Vulcan 2.1 very unlikely. A Ariane Next that uses a promethee engine would always be a completely new/different launcher.
LOx-LH has a density of 0.28-0.32 mT/M3 (kg/L); LOx-LNG (LCH4) is 0,82-0,83 mT/M3.  So the fuel mass in the Core stage would nearly triple. So one Prometheus would not suffice.
A Vulcain 2.2 or 2.3 (2.2 is already planned if I'm not mistaken) would be a much more logical drop in replacement. Vulcain 2.2 has 3D printed Turbopumps if I'm not mistaken.
A new injector design (additive manufactured) and ignition system would lower the cost of a Vulcain engine a lot. I think that's a beter alternative than Scenario 1.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #22 on: 02/28/2017 04:16 PM »
I deem senario 1: Drop-in replacement of Promethee instead of Vulcan 2.1 very unlikely. A Ariane Next that uses a promethee engine would always be a completely new/different launcher.
LOx-LH has a density of 0.28-0.32 mT/M3 (kg/L); LOx-LNG (LCH4) is 0,82-0,83 mT/M3.  So the fuel mass in the Core stage would nearly triple. So one Prometheus would not suffice.
A Vulcain 2.2 or 2.3 (2.2 is already planned if I'm not mistaken) would be a much more logical drop in replacement. Vulcain 2.2 has 3D printed Turbopumps if I'm not mistaken.
A new injector design (additive manufactured) and ignition system would lower the cost of a Vulcain engine a lot. I think that's a beter alternative than Scenario 1.
Vulcan 2.2 will be phased in first and Vulcan 2.3, which will be nearly completely 3D printed, will follow later both on Ariane-6 in the future.

Offline calapine

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #23 on: 02/28/2017 04:40 PM »
Interesting information, thanks.

Will there be any other changes with Vulcain 2.2 and 2.3 (eg, thrust upgrade) or are they solely aimed at lowering the production cost?

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #24 on: 02/28/2017 04:44 PM »
Interesting information, thanks.

Will there be any other changes with Vulcain 2.2 and 2.3 (eg, thrust upgrade) or are they solely aimed at lowering the production cost?
2.3 will see an uprate in thrust for testing and certification but is not currently planned to use the uprated thrust operationally on flights

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #25 on: 02/28/2017 05:24 PM »
Link to GKN video about new rocket engine production technology.
I didn't known Vulcain2.3 was actually really in development.
Can you share some sources?

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #26 on: 02/28/2017 05:44 PM »
Link to GKN video about new rocket engine production technology.
I didn't known Vulcain 2.3 was actually really in development.
Can you share some sources?
it is scheduled for development after Vulcan 2.2 wraps up

Offline mc87

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #27 on: 03/16/2017 12:10 AM »
Airbus Safran Launchers tweeted a short video of the Prometheus 3D printed injector (is that what it is?).

https://twitter.com/aslaunchers/status/842036194259136512

Online MATTBLAK

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #28 on: 03/16/2017 12:39 AM »
A six SRB Ariane 6 with upgraded Vulcain and Vinci engines could probably do manned Lunar missions with twinned launches! One for the Spacecraft and one for the Departure Stage. Roll on, the ESA 'Space Village'! :)
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Offline russianhalo117

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #29 on: 03/16/2017 01:24 AM »
Airbus Safran Launchers tweeted a short video of the Prometheus 3D printed injector (is that what it is?).

https://twitter.com/aslaunchers/status/842036194259136512
looks more like the MCC and base of the nozzle.

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