Author Topic: SpaceX's DSN plans  (Read 10835 times)

Online avollhar

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Re: SpaceX's DSN plans
« Reply #40 on: 09/23/2016 05:08 PM »
DSN is doing navigation and communications.. same for ESA ESTRACK. I would state, that communication is easy.. but navigation (especially when trying to hit an entry corridor for Mars entry) is awfully hard!

Been there, done that..

Offline savuporo

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Re: SpaceX's DSN plans
« Reply #41 on: 09/23/2016 05:56 PM »
I would state, that communication is easy.. but navigation (especially when trying to hit an entry corridor for Mars entry) is awfully hard!

Been there, done that..

This is what most people aren't aware of. Thanks
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Online AncientU

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Re: SpaceX's DSN plans
« Reply #42 on: 09/23/2016 06:04 PM »
I would state, that communication is easy.. but navigation (especially when trying to hit an entry corridor for Mars entry) is awfully hard!

Been there, done that..

This is what most people aren't aware of. Thanks

Doesn't the tracking function depend on two or more stations having near simultaneous contact?  Timing for the signal plus sighting angle provides the position of space vehicle; RF photons travel same speed as 1550nm photons, so timing is same problem in each.  Baseline restrictions for ground systems (Earth diameter minus limiting antenna altitude) seems much more restrictive than two GEO laser-comm sats where the baseline is ten times as large potentially, and simultaneous/continuous position tracking is possible.  DSN does have the advantage of being used for last 50 years, though, while laser comms is still on the drawing board.

Note that the APOLLO Lunar ranging experiment mentioned above measures Lunar distance down to <centimeter scale, so laser tracking could potentially do as well as needed with a spacecraft.
« Last Edit: 09/23/2016 06:16 PM by AncientU »
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Offline savuporo

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Re: SpaceX's DSN plans
« Reply #43 on: 09/23/2016 06:10 PM »
I would state, that communication is easy.. but navigation (especially when trying to hit an entry corridor for Mars entry) is awfully hard!

Been there, done that..

This is what most people aren't aware of. Thanks

Doesn't the tracking function depend on two or more stations having near simultaneous contact?  ..

Yes it does, for VLBI. Delta-DOR works off of Goldstone-Canberra or Goldstone-Madrid baselines
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Offline savuporo

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Re: SpaceX's DSN plans
« Reply #44 on: 09/23/2016 06:28 PM »
You could imagine an all-optical system for tracking and navigation as well as data transmission. Or a radio-based but all-in-orbit system for tracking and navigation that wouldn't require huge ground dishes.
Can you point to any research or other works about how exactly would this work ? Especially, what replaces quasar based error correction ?
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Online LouScheffer

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Re: SpaceX's DSN plans
« Reply #45 on: 09/29/2016 02:13 AM »
SpaceX already has a huge number of problems on their plate, and the DSN problem has known technical solutions that are not that expensive by Mars exploration standards.  I'd be very tempted to start by simply copying the known DSN technology, already known to solve tracking, commanding, emergency telemetry, and data downlink.  According to Contract Marks New Generation for Deep Space Network, a pair of 34 meter antennas runs about $40M.  Put a pair (for redundancy) in California, Spain, and Australia just like the DSN does.  You can buy off the shelf low noise amps, transmitters, space-qualified transponders, and almost all the other stuff you'll need.  Use the CCSDS standard deep space protocols so the DSN and ESA can back you up in an emergency.   This would also enable you to offer bandwidth to scientific missions when you are not using all your bandwidth for SpaceX.  This would earn you the gratitude of scientists everywhere, since the DSN is always over-subscribed.

When they are actually ready to send humans, then SpaceX could build the high bandwidth optical links, if the other space agencies have not done so yet (they are all working on it).

Offline savuporo

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Re: SpaceX's DSN plans
« Reply #46 on: 09/29/2016 02:54 AM »
SpaceX already has a huge number of problems on their plate, and the DSN problem has known technical solutions that are not that expensive by Mars exploration standards.  I'd be very tempted to start by simply copying the known DSN technology, already known to solve tracking, commanding, emergency telemetry, and data downlink.  According to Contract Marks New Generation for Deep Space Network, a pair of 34 meter antennas runs about $40M.  Put a pair (for redundancy) in California, Spain, and Australia just like the DSN does.  You can buy off the shelf low noise amps, transmitters, space-qualified transponders, and almost all the other stuff you'll need.  Use the CCSDS standard deep space protocols so the DSN and ESA can back you up in an emergency.   This would also enable you to offer bandwidth to scientific missions when you are not using all your bandwidth for SpaceX.  This would earn you the gratitude of scientists everywhere, since the DSN is always over-subscribed....

Couldn't agree more with this. But i don't think they actually have that much cash to spare on things like these, and it's not a one off investment either, coming with significant facilities upkeep.
Here is where a reasonable public-private co-investment strategy should come into play, but somehow that sounds unlikely too.
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Online LouScheffer

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Re: SpaceX's DSN plans
« Reply #47 on: 09/29/2016 03:41 AM »
SpaceX already has a huge number of problems on their plate, and the DSN problem has known technical solutions that are not that expensive by Mars exploration standards.  I'd be very tempted to start by simply copying the known DSN technology,[...] Use the CCSDS standard deep space protocols so the DSN and ESA can back you up in an emergency.   This would also enable you to offer bandwidth to scientific missions when you are not using all your bandwidth for SpaceX.  This would earn you the gratitude of scientists everywhere, since the DSN is always over-subscribed....

Couldn't agree more with this. But i don't think they actually have that much cash to spare on things like these, and it's not a one off investment either, coming with significant facilities upkeep.
Here is where a reasonable public-private co-investment strategy should come into play, but somehow that sounds unlikely too.
I suspect the upkeep could be covered by renting out unused time to JPL and/or missions that want more bandwidth.  The standard DSN rate is $1057 per hour for a 34 meter antenna, and they have more demand than they can handle at that cost.  If SpaceX charges half of that, to get folks to use their facilities, they'd still get about $4M/year/antenna.   Not a big profit, but probably enough to cover upkeep.

Offline mikelepage

Re: SpaceX's DSN plans
« Reply #48 on: 03/16/2017 08:25 AM »
A side use of the cis-lunar tourism flights could be the deployment of communications relay satellites into heliocentric orbits.  Wouldn't take much extra dV following TLI to put any sat on a lunar flyby that results in Earth escape velocity.
 

Offline Glom

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Re: SpaceX's DSN plans
« Reply #49 on: 03/16/2017 11:51 AM »
Could NASA do a QinetiQ and sign a long term agreement for SpaceX to run the DSN for them?

Offline guckyfan

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Re: SpaceX's DSN plans
« Reply #50 on: 03/16/2017 12:47 PM »
Could NASA do a QinetiQ and sign a long term agreement for SpaceX to run the DSN for them?

DSN covers the whole solar system with its spread out probes. It has very large dishes in a number of locations spread over the earth.

SpaceX is interested in Mars capabilities. They could increase data flow from Mars and maybe relieve the DSN from some work there.

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX's DSN plans
« Reply #51 on: 03/16/2017 01:02 PM »
Could NASA do a QinetiQ and sign a long term agreement for SpaceX to run the DSN for them?

What is a QinetiQ?
And why would Spacex be any better than anyone else at running the DSN?
And why would Space want to run the DSN?
« Last Edit: 03/16/2017 01:03 PM by Jim »

Online Eer

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Re: SpaceX's DSN plans
« Reply #52 on: 03/16/2017 01:05 PM »
Could NASA do a QinetiQ and sign a long term agreement for SpaceX to run the DSN for them?

DSN covers the whole solar system with its spread out probes. It has very large dishes in a number of locations spread over the earth.

SpaceX is interested in Mars capabilities. They could increase data flow from Mars and maybe relieve the DSN from some work there.

But the more general answer might be that someone, not necessarily SpaceX, could offer/bid to do so, particularly if it allowed NASA to shift to a more commercial-oriented basis for the services, and let the new entity also contract to serve SpaceX, Beos, Planetary Resources (if/when), ESA, etc.  It would require care to address international consumers data and service requirements (including privacy) while also being able to support the service during relatively low levels of activity. 

May be a bit early, but not too early for early adopters to be thinking how to do.

Offline JamesH65

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Re: SpaceX's DSN plans
« Reply #53 on: 03/16/2017 02:00 PM »
Could NASA do a QinetiQ and sign a long term agreement for SpaceX to run the DSN for them?

What is a QinetiQ?
And why would Spacex be any better than anyone else at running the DSN?
And why would Space want to run the DSN?

Surprised you haven't heard of QuinetiQ, formally part of DERA. But I guess it's not an American company....

https://www.qinetiq.com/about-us/Pages/default.aspx


Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX's DSN plans
« Reply #54 on: 03/16/2017 02:06 PM »
Could NASA do a QinetiQ and sign a long term agreement for SpaceX to run the DSN for them?

What is a QinetiQ?
And why would Spacex be any better than anyone else at running the DSN?
And why would Space want to run the DSN?

Surprised you haven't heard of QuinetiQ, formally part of DERA. But I guess it's not an American company....

https://www.qinetiq.com/about-us/Pages/default.aspx



I know the company very well but not "do a QinetiQ"?

Online LouScheffer

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Re: SpaceX's DSN plans
« Reply #55 on: 03/21/2017 02:37 PM »
Could NASA do a QinetiQ and sign a long term agreement for SpaceX to run the DSN for them?
NASA has already done this, at least in terms of day-to-day operation. From the Inspector General's report NASA’S MANAGEMENT OF THE DEEP SPACE NETWORK:
Quote
Exelis, Inc., a private contractor specializing in support for space networks, is responsible for on-site management of Goldstone as part of its 5-year, $218.2 million subcontract with JPL. In FY 2014, Exelis had an annual operating budget of $16.8 million for Goldstone and employed about 150 people.
And Spain:
Quote
Ingenieria de Sistemas para la Defensa de España S.A. (ISDEFE), a wholly owned subsidiary of the Instituto Nacional de Técnica Aeroespacial (INTA) and a part of the Spanish Department of Defense, operates and maintains the Madrid Deep Space Communications Complex (Madrid).
Likewise, operation of the Australia complex is done by CSIRO.
Quote
The Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO), an Australian Commonwealth Government Statutory Authority, established the CSIRO Astronomy and Space Science Division to manage the day-to-day operations, engineering, and maintenance activities of the Canberra Deep Space Communications Complex (Canberra).

Offline Hobbes-22

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Re: SpaceX's DSN plans
« Reply #56 on: 03/21/2017 02:52 PM »
Could NASA do a QinetiQ and sign a long term agreement for SpaceX to run the DSN for them?

What is a QinetiQ?
And why would Spacex be any better than anyone else at running the DSN?
And why would Space want to run the DSN?

Surprised you haven't heard of QuinetiQ, formally part of DERA. But I guess it's not an American company....

https://www.qinetiq.com/about-us/Pages/default.aspx



I know the company very well but not "do a QinetiQ"?

Qinetiq is the somewhat-controversial conversion of a government department (tasked with research for defence) to a commercial company, now partly in foreign hands.

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX's DSN plans
« Reply #57 on: 03/21/2017 03:08 PM »

Exelis, Inc., a private contractor specializing in support for space networks, is responsible for on-site management of Goldstone as part of its 5-year, $218.2 million subcontract with JPL. In FY 2014, Exelis had an annual operating budget of $16.8 million for Goldstone and employed about 150 people.


Been that way for many years.  Most NASA day to day ops are done by contractors.  Even TDRSS.

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