Author Topic: Ukrainian Cyclone 4 Launch Operations will be Established in North America  (Read 12632 times)

Offline Comga

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If hypergolics are unlikely even for payloads, that cuts down the possible lifts such a rocket could do.
Almost any launcher will carry some on payloads, but that's a very different story from a several hundred ton first stage. Hard to see a hypergolic first stage LV getting approval, and if it did, operations would likely be extremely expensive under US or Canadian regulations.
well as governments clamp down on highly toxic hypergolics the transition to low or zero toxicity hypergolics (Green propellant) becomes important. Green propellants developed so far result less propellant mass with a higher ISP and a cheaper, shorter mission processing/launch campaign.

Check out The Green Propellant Infusion Mission (GPIM).  One thing they don't have is a large engine, and by "large" we mean 5 lb/ 20 N. 
Then look for ISP and NOFBx.  That did not go well.
There are no green storable propellant engines suitable for rocket stages. 
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline hop

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There are no green storable propellant engines suitable for rocket stages. 
And even if there were, it's very unlikely the propellants would be drop-in replacements for N2O4/UDMH in terms of density, O/F ratio, materials requirements etc. so the resulting LV would be not be Tsyklon 4 in any meaningful sense. If they are switching propellants, they might as well go for LOX/RP1 or something like that. There's no evidence the commercial space launch market wants storable propellant LVs, even if they weren't environmentally nasty. The market for "green" hypergols would be spacecraft, not LV first stages.

Personally, I suspect the press release is a product of some political maneuvering rather than a serious proposal.

Offline Bubbinski

Mexico is in North America too, any possibility they could try launching from there? Baja might be suitable for polar launches, maybe GTO launches from Yucatan?
« Last Edit: 09/07/2016 01:08 AM by Bubbinski »
I'll even excitedly look forward to "flags and footprints" and suborbital missions. Just fly...somewhere.

Offline hop

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Mexico is in North America too, any possibility they could try launching from there? Baja might be suitable for polar launches, maybe GTO launches from Yucatan?
The release says
Quote
On site assessments have already been conducted in Canada and the United States for possible launch complex locations.
...
Operating from North America will provide operational convenience with negligible export control issues for customers.
...
Locations in Canada are being considered which would leverage and build upon the close ties between Canada and Ukraine
The export control advantage would likely be less in Mexico.

Offline Sam Ho

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English version has appeared on their web site.

Here's a week old update from Yuzhnoye itself: http://www.yuzhnoye.com/en/press-center/pressrelises/pressrelis-copy_39.html

Looks like they're considering launching from North America, partnering up with whoever is willing to take on the construction costs for the launch site.

Offline Star One

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slightly off topic, but this is aerospace.


http://www.antonov.com/news/478

China and Ukraine are going to build the largest plane in the world

Do a google search for articles on this.....but it begs the question any China interests in Cyclone launches?

Already posted by me in the Chinese space thread where it seemed most appropriate.

Offline sanman

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Does Canada's northern latitude and climate afford reasonable launch capability? At least Brazil was equatorial. And does Canada have the requisite domestic satellite market to usefully benefit and sustain the company? Or will they overwhelmingly rely on foreign launch customers?

« Last Edit: 09/08/2016 01:39 PM by sanman »

Offline baldusi

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Does Canada's northern latitude and climate afford reasonable launch capability? At least Brazil was equatorial. And does Canada have the requisite domestic satellite market to usefully benefit and sustain the company? Or will they overwhelmingly rely on foreign launch customers?
Depends on what and where are you launching it. Given that Cyclone-4 couldn't even reach a 2 tonnes to GTO from Alcantara (which is even closer to the Equator than Kourou), it was clearly not the launcher for that market. For polar and SSO, the Equator actually hurts performance. And it's very difficult to find non-military spacecrafts in the >4.5 tonnes that they can do. So it would be right for the Earth Observation market. Incidentally, Canada does have some of those programs. And they are, along Russian, the most interested in Polar observation and communications satellites, for obvious reasons.

Offline robertross

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English version has appeared on their web site.

Here's a week old update from Yuzhnoye itself: http://www.yuzhnoye.com/en/press-center/pressrelises/pressrelis-copy_39.html

Looks like they're considering launching from North America, partnering up with whoever is willing to take on the construction costs for the launch site.

And I would bet that there would be demands that governments give them tax breaks, free/cheap land, property tax reductions, and even cheap electricity rates in exchange for a few hundred (= dozens) of jobs.
Remembering those who made the ultimate sacrifice for our rights & freedoms, and for those injured, visible or otherwise, in that fight.

Offline robertross

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Does Canada's northern latitude and climate afford reasonable launch capability? At least Brazil was equatorial. And does Canada have the requisite domestic satellite market to usefully benefit and sustain the company? Or will they overwhelmingly rely on foreign launch customers?


The climate should be a problem. Although a different beast, the Soyuz & Proton rockets seem to launch just fine in cold climates (in some respects worse than what we get). Churchill, Manitoba is a bit more challenging than the other potential launch sites, mainly due to access, but also the mosquitoes larger than a loonie ($1 coin), but still an respectable 8-month launch window.
Remembering those who made the ultimate sacrifice for our rights & freedoms, and for those injured, visible or otherwise, in that fight.

Offline ChamberPressure

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http://acuriousguy.blogspot.ca/2016/09/ukranian-based-yuzhnoye-design-bureau.html

According to this, the province of New Brunswick is being considered for a possible Canadian launch site.

Offline calapine

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CBCNews now reports that Canso-Hazel Hill, Nova Scotia is now considered for a possible launch location.

Why a $100M rocket launch site might be coming to Nova Scotia

"Maritime Launch Services holding public meeting tonight to discuss its plans for Canso-Hazel Hill area"


Edit: Found another article that has more background info. MSL (Maritime Launch Services, the company behind the project) talks of $110m cost to set up a launch pad and plans to offer LEO and SSO launches for $45m.

Maritime Launch Services to Decide on Nova Scotia Spaceport in March
« Last Edit: 02/10/2017 08:20 PM by calapine »

Offline Arch Admiral

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This is a fantasy project from a dying manufacturer. There hasn't been a Tsiklon launch since 2009.
Yuznoye is not going to get any further business from the Russians so they have to try for a Western market. Anyway, Tsiklon is basically Titan II technology - nobody in their right minds would build a new launch pad for it. This project is dead on arrival.

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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I find the news releases about the proposed Cyclone 4M launchsite in Canada a bit contradictory.
Cyclone 4 as discribed on the Yuzhnoye website, is a three stage launcher using NTO-UDMH.
On the spaceq.ca article they describe Cyclone 4M as:
A two stage launcher. The first stage is derived of zenith and uses LOx-RG1. The second stage and fairing are the same as on Cyclone 4.

I hope they propose the Mayak L2 launcher. Then the second stage is also LOx-RG1. The engines would be: first stage 2x RD801; second stage 2x RD809K.
Using NTO-UDMH would be using 70s technology. Using LOX-RG1 would be modern technology.

Offline hop

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Using NTO-UDMH would be using 70s technology. Using LOX-RG1 would be modern technology.
IMHO, 70s vs modern isn't really the issue, after all the first orbital rockets was LOX/RG1. The real issue is that getting environmental approval for an all hypergolic LV would (rightly) be extremely difficult if not impossible in a country like Canada.

However, the non-hypergolic "Cyclone" doesn't actually exist, so there would be very significant development costs.

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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This is primarily a "breakout" strategy - they want to get a means of launching vehicles.

If they can get (and launch) a few missions, they can get cash flow/net profit bootstrapped.

Then they uprate/upgrade LV/pad/GSE and keep on rolling. Don't get hung up on the names/terms.

It's more about Canada in this case than it is about Yuzhnoye. And that's why the Brazil deal didn't work.

Also, between Russia and Canada is an entirely different relationship than Brazil and Russian.

If this were to happen, which it might for some amusing reasons having to do with strategic overreach, the smartest thing for Brazil to do would be to "piggyback" it. If they could.

As to LV, Cyclone is a done deal and works. If you just want to enter the LRE LV game, it's perfect for that. If you wanted to upscale, you'd first move to a kerolox first stage and then perhaps a Mayak ...

But first you need a means of launching. Now, if you could go back to SeaLaunch Commander(Lemurian Star) and  Ocean Odyssey you'd have an even better means to the same end, but the owners of that would be highly opposed to that and definitely not for profitability/revenue reasons ... while the Canadian's have an entirely different "need".

Using NTO-UDMH would be using 70s technology. Using LOX-RG1 would be modern technology.
IMHO, 70s vs modern isn't really the issue, after all the first orbital rockets was LOX/RG1. The real issue is that getting environmental approval for an all hypergolic LV would (rightly) be extremely difficult if not impossible in a country like Canada.
Yes.

But if it were a limited time, limited scope hazard, they might be able to use the same rubrik that Russia used to keep Proton launching in Kazakhstan (albeit more indefinite).

Quote
However, the non-hypergolic "Cyclone" doesn't actually exist, so there would be very significant development costs.

Matter of pad/facilities/GSE. Suggest you overbuild the pad/facilities and have a "mount on a mount". Then you phase over to a different LV, where your first few missions might be integrated "elsewhere" and just launched at the pad. Total cost is kept to a minimum.

As to the hybrid vehicle, you view the hyper US as if a encapsulated third stage with a dummy second stage. ;)

Little cost because you don't spend much time on the past, leveraging most off the present/recent/future.

Offline robertross

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T-minus 1 year until rocket launch site construction starts in Nova Scotia

"The province will soon be the site of a rocket spaceport. Tuesday morning an American company announced plans to build the facility near Canso, N.S., and begin construction within one year.

Maritime Launch Services hopes to launch eight rockets annually by 2022, according to a news release from the company."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/rocket-launch-site-confirmed-for-canso-nova-scotia-1.4023808

Remembering those who made the ultimate sacrifice for our rights & freedoms, and for those injured, visible or otherwise, in that fight.

Offline Lars-J

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Maritime Launch Services selects Nova Scotia site for spaceport
« Reply #37 on: 03/14/2017 08:20 PM »
I didn't see a thread about this, but I thought it might be of interest...

http://www.spaceq.ca/maritime-launch-services-selects-nova-scotia-site-for-spaceport-over-13-other-locations/

Some choice quotes:
Quote
Maritime Launch Services (MLS) will announce today that it has selected a site in the Guysborough Municipality near Canso and Hazel Hill, Nova Scotia over 13 other prospective locations for its new commercial launch complex, or spaceport, and expects to break ground on construction within a year.
...
MLS is after the medium class launch market. They are offering two launch options to begin with. Option 1 is a Sun-synchronous orbit launch between 600-800 km, a much desired service at this time for smaller satellites, with a payload up to 3350 kg for US$45 million. Option 2 is a Low Earth Orbit launch, below 600 km in altitude, that will allow a payload up to 5000 kg also for US$45 million.
...
Yuzhnoye Design Office along with Yuzhmash of the Ukraine will be supplying MLS with a new variant of the Cyclone rocket, the 4M, and CEO John Isella had previously told SpaceQ of the new design, “the Cyclone 4 upper stage and fairing remain unchanged and the first stage is now derived from the Zenit family of vehicles using an existing Lox-RP engine that is produced in Ukraine. So a 2 stage vehicle, Lox-RP first stage.”
...
Isella said MLS hopes that it can get through the “regulatory processes, approvals and site planning” so that after ground breaking next year the first launch from the new Spaceport could happen within two years in 2020. MLS is hoping to launch eight rockets a year by 2022.

So how serious is this? It seems like an outlandish idea to launch a Ukranian rocket (Cyclone/Tsyklon 4M) in Canada.

Offline robertross

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I didn't see a thread about this, but I thought it might be of interest...

http://www.spaceq.ca/maritime-launch-services-selects-nova-scotia-site-for-spaceport-over-13-other-locations/

Some choice quotes:
Quote
Maritime Launch Services (MLS) will announce today that it has selected a site in the Guysborough Municipality near Canso and Hazel Hill, Nova Scotia over 13 other prospective locations for its new commercial launch complex, or spaceport, and expects to break ground on construction within a year.
...
MLS is after the medium class launch market. They are offering two launch options to begin with. Option 1 is a Sun-synchronous orbit launch between 600-800 km, a much desired service at this time for smaller satellites, with a payload up to 3350 kg for US$45 million. Option 2 is a Low Earth Orbit launch, below 600 km in altitude, that will allow a payload up to 5000 kg also for US$45 million.
...
Yuzhnoye Design Office along with Yuzhmash of the Ukraine will be supplying MLS with a new variant of the Cyclone rocket, the 4M, and CEO John Isella had previously told SpaceQ of the new design, “the Cyclone 4 upper stage and fairing remain unchanged and the first stage is now derived from the Zenit family of vehicles using an existing Lox-RP engine that is produced in Ukraine. So a 2 stage vehicle, Lox-RP first stage.”
...
Isella said MLS hopes that it can get through the “regulatory processes, approvals and site planning” so that after ground breaking next year the first launch from the new Spaceport could happen within two years in 2020. MLS is hoping to launch eight rockets a year by 2022.

So how serious is this? It seems like an outlandish idea to launch a Ukranian rocket (Cyclone/Tsyklon 4M) in Canada.

No, it's a go (after the environmental impact studies & such)
Remembering those who made the ultimate sacrifice for our rights & freedoms, and for those injured, visible or otherwise, in that fight.

Online Steven Pietrobon

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Here's the launch vehicle. LOX/Kero first stage derived from Zenit first stage, but using Ukrainian engines. This could be the RD-801, which is in development.

http://www.yuzhnoye.com/en/technique/rocket-engines/marching/rd-801/

That has a sea level thrust of 1199 kN. Four engines has a thrust of 4794 kN. Another engine in development is the RD-810.

http://www.yuzhnoye.com/en/technique/rocket-engines/marching/rd-810/

That has a sea level thrust of 1876 kN, giving a lift-off thrust of 7505 kN.
« Last Edit: 03/15/2017 05:26 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

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