Author Topic: Ukrainian Cyclone 4 Launch Operations will be Established in North America  (Read 19347 times)

Online Chris Bergin

Interesting presser just turned up from Yuzhnoye!

Offline robertross

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Interesting presser just turned up from Yuzhnoye!

Hmmm.

Well if they wanted to establish a launch facility on the East Coast of Canada, it would likely be in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia (which has already pushed to have a launch facility built there).

However, the people there would take a seriously dim view of hypergolic fuels potentially contaminating fishing grounds in the area.

On the West Coast of Canada, it would most likely have to face indigenous people's spiritual lands, for which I wouldn't blame them from blocking development. They have largely been ignored for generations, but with our new Liberal government in power, who is attempting to empower them with self government & treated with proper respect, I'm sure they would not wish to threaten the waterways there, or risk sensitive habitat.

We are in a new world of environmental oversight here in Canada (whatever that truly means at the end of the day...big business always seems to get their way through politicians)
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Offline Oberon_Command

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However, the people there would take a seriously dim view of hypergolic fuels potentially contaminating fishing grounds in the area.

On the West Coast of Canada, it would most likely have to face indigenous people's spiritual lands, for which I wouldn't blame them from blocking development. They have largely been ignored for generations, but with our new Liberal government in power, who is attempting to empower them with self government & treated with proper respect, I'm sure they would not wish to threaten the waterways there, or risk sensitive habitat.

As a Canadian myself, this. I don't see any hypergol-fuelled rocket launching from Canadian soil any time soon. Might get away with a different fuel type, though. Maybe LOX/LH2, or CH4/LOX? I don't see any RP-1-fueled rocket flying from the Pacific Northwest, for sure. We get enough of an uproar over oil pipelines running through the province and fuel spills in English Bay that I think there would be some pretty fierce opposition. Not sure how our friends in the Maritimes would feel about RP-1, though.

Though, this does make me wonder if Zenit could ever fly from Canadian soil?
« Last Edit: 09/02/2016 02:28 AM by Oberon_Command »

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If hypergolics are unlikely even for payloads, that cuts down the possible lifts such a rocket could do.
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Offline hop

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If hypergolics are unlikely even for payloads, that cuts down the possible lifts such a rocket could do.
Almost any launcher will carry some on payloads, but that's a very different story from a several hundred ton first stage. Hard to see a hypergolic first stage LV getting approval, and if it did, operations would likely be extremely expensive under US or Canadian regulations.

Offline russianhalo117

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If hypergolics are unlikely even for payloads, that cuts down the possible lifts such a rocket could do.
Almost any launcher will carry some on payloads, but that's a very different story from a several hundred ton first stage. Hard to see a hypergolic first stage LV getting approval, and if it did, operations would likely be extremely expensive under US or Canadian regulations.
well as governments clamp down on highly toxic hypergolics the transition to low or zero toxicity hypergolics (Green propellant) becomes important. Green propellants developed so far result less propellant mass with a higher ISP and a cheaper, shorter mission processing/launch campaign.

Offline Zed_Noir

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I think you can locate a launch site on the Eastern side of Newfoundland for even a hypergolic launcher.

Offline sdsds

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Looking at the stats (http://www.yuzhnoye.com/en/technique/launch-vehicles/rockets/cyclone-4/) it is close to 200 tons of lift-off mass; most of that would be NTO/UDMH. Has anything close to that ever flown out of Kodiak?
« Last Edit: 09/02/2016 04:54 AM by sdsds »
-- sdsds --

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Looking at the stats (http://www.yuzhnoye.com/en/technique/launch-vehicles/rockets/cyclone-4/) it is close to 200 tons of lift-off mass; most of that would be NTO/UDMH. Has anything close to that ever flown out of Kodiak?
Nothing liquid-fueled has ever flown out of Kodiak. The largest previous launch was a Minotaur IV+ at 90 tons.

Online Chris Bergin

When I tweeted the link, a few Canadians responded with the potential of Churchill?

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Doubt that this rocket can gain any market share anyway - this rocket is around Delta II - Antares class.
If it can't get any customers while based in Brazil, why would it have a chance in Canada/US?
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Offline robertross

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When I tweeted the link, a few Canadians responded with the potential of Churchill?

The only possibility would be Churchill, Manitoba, which is on the left edge of James Bay (close to our arctic area) in the center of our country.

Again, that is a potential non-starter these days due to indigenous people's land rights, and contamination due to hypergols.


(as for hypergols, its use on payloads 'might' get approval, but certainly not on the rocket's launch stages)
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Offline robertross

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Doubt that this rocket can gain any market share anyway - this rocket is around Delta II - Antares class.
If it can't get any customers while based in Brazil, why would it have a chance in Canada/US?

Canada would love to have the 'prestige' of a launch facility, but it shies away from the risk which could affect its natural resources (which includes pristine views for tourism). Like all projects: we want the jobs, but not any baggage that goes along with it ('threat' of environmental damage, obstructed views, noise, and other pollution - all from past experience). Canada would offer incentives like free land use, zero (or low) taxes, and other concessions though to get a 'jobs' program.
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Offline Archibald

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Wow, this rocket project still alive ? talk about beating a dead horse. Hypergols only make it worse. They spent twenty years trying to cut a deal with Brazil, and zilch, nada.
 So, I'll believe in it when it will fly for good- see you in twenty years.  :P 
« Last Edit: 09/02/2016 03:41 PM by Archibald »

Offline baldusi

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AIUI, they have everything mostly developed, even the pad equipment. And it was clearly not the right size for an Equatorial launch site. But for something polar it is a perfect match with a launch legacy only comparable to Atlas II.
I do believe that the hypegolics will make it a non start anywhere in North America. But if they had presented a project with an RD-801 first stage and an RD-809 second stage Malyak, it would be a perfect launch vehicle from a very credible developer.

Offline Prober

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slightly off topic, but this is aerospace.


http://www.antonov.com/news/478

China and Ukraine are going to build the largest plane in the world

Do a google search for articles on this.....but it begs the question any China interests in Cyclone launches?








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but it begs the question any China interests in Cyclone launches?

Why would China be interested in another hypergolic launcher that's towards the lower end of LM2-family performance?

Especially since they're in the middle of a fairly concerted switch to new kerolox launchers.
« Last Edit: 09/02/2016 07:36 PM by dasmoth »

Offline Prober

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but it begs the question any China interests in Cyclone launches?

Why would China be interested in another hypergolic launcher that's towards the lower end of LM2-family performance?

Especially since they're in the middle of a fairly concerted switch to new kerolox launchers.


Answer is a mix of politics and business.   China could do it for investment and get into the lower end launch market.  Atm don't think many north American small payloads will ship to China for launching, yet many small new small launchers/companies have started a business.


Agree that hypergolic wouldn't be the way to go, but we have this announcement, how would you address it?

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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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The website http://yuzhnoye-us.com takes you to the Yuzhnoye home page at

http://yuzhnoye.com/

The still have the Zenit Sea Launch and Land Launch prominently displayed! This is the Cyclone 4 page

http://yuzhnoye.com/en/technique/launch-vehicles/rockets/cyclone-4/

No mention of this North American initiative that I can see on their English web site. In

http://yuzhnoye.com/press-center/news/news_64.html

I found this comment (Bing translation):

"− search for interested investors to create a new pad for RN «Cyclone-4 "and promising pH (" Lighthouse "," vector "," Spike ", etc.);"
« Last Edit: 09/03/2016 06:54 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
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Offline russianhalo117

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but it begs the question any China interests in Cyclone launches?

Why would China be interested in another hypergolic launcher that's towards the lower end of LM2-family performance?

Especially since they're in the middle of a fairly concerted switch to new kerolox launchers.


Answer is a mix of politics and business.   China could do it for investment and get into the lower end launch market.  Atm don't think many north American small payloads will ship to China for launching, yet many small new small launchers/companies have started a business.


Agree that hypergolic wouldn't be the way to go, but we have this announcement, how would you address it?


The only way it could fly with storable prop would be switch and certify the launcher for use with Green hypergols such as those being developed by Europe and USA

Online Comga

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If hypergolics are unlikely even for payloads, that cuts down the possible lifts such a rocket could do.
Almost any launcher will carry some on payloads, but that's a very different story from a several hundred ton first stage. Hard to see a hypergolic first stage LV getting approval, and if it did, operations would likely be extremely expensive under US or Canadian regulations.
well as governments clamp down on highly toxic hypergolics the transition to low or zero toxicity hypergolics (Green propellant) becomes important. Green propellants developed so far result less propellant mass with a higher ISP and a cheaper, shorter mission processing/launch campaign.

Check out The Green Propellant Infusion Mission (GPIM).  One thing they don't have is a large engine, and by "large" we mean 5 lb/ 20 N. 
Then look for ISP and NOFBx.  That did not go well.
There are no green storable propellant engines suitable for rocket stages. 
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline hop

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There are no green storable propellant engines suitable for rocket stages. 
And even if there were, it's very unlikely the propellants would be drop-in replacements for N2O4/UDMH in terms of density, O/F ratio, materials requirements etc. so the resulting LV would be not be Tsyklon 4 in any meaningful sense. If they are switching propellants, they might as well go for LOX/RP1 or something like that. There's no evidence the commercial space launch market wants storable propellant LVs, even if they weren't environmentally nasty. The market for "green" hypergols would be spacecraft, not LV first stages.

Personally, I suspect the press release is a product of some political maneuvering rather than a serious proposal.

Offline Bubbinski

Mexico is in North America too, any possibility they could try launching from there? Baja might be suitable for polar launches, maybe GTO launches from Yucatan?
« Last Edit: 09/07/2016 01:08 AM by Bubbinski »
I'll even excitedly look forward to "flags and footprints" and suborbital missions. Just fly...somewhere.

Offline hop

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Mexico is in North America too, any possibility they could try launching from there? Baja might be suitable for polar launches, maybe GTO launches from Yucatan?
The release says
Quote
On site assessments have already been conducted in Canada and the United States for possible launch complex locations.
...
Operating from North America will provide operational convenience with negligible export control issues for customers.
...
Locations in Canada are being considered which would leverage and build upon the close ties between Canada and Ukraine
The export control advantage would likely be less in Mexico.

Offline Sam Ho

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English version has appeared on their web site.

Here's a week old update from Yuzhnoye itself: http://www.yuzhnoye.com/en/press-center/pressrelises/pressrelis-copy_39.html

Looks like they're considering launching from North America, partnering up with whoever is willing to take on the construction costs for the launch site.

Offline Star One

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slightly off topic, but this is aerospace.


http://www.antonov.com/news/478

China and Ukraine are going to build the largest plane in the world

Do a google search for articles on this.....but it begs the question any China interests in Cyclone launches?

Already posted by me in the Chinese space thread where it seemed most appropriate.

Online sanman

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Does Canada's northern latitude and climate afford reasonable launch capability? At least Brazil was equatorial. And does Canada have the requisite domestic satellite market to usefully benefit and sustain the company? Or will they overwhelmingly rely on foreign launch customers?

« Last Edit: 09/08/2016 01:39 PM by sanman »

Offline baldusi

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Does Canada's northern latitude and climate afford reasonable launch capability? At least Brazil was equatorial. And does Canada have the requisite domestic satellite market to usefully benefit and sustain the company? Or will they overwhelmingly rely on foreign launch customers?
Depends on what and where are you launching it. Given that Cyclone-4 couldn't even reach a 2 tonnes to GTO from Alcantara (which is even closer to the Equator than Kourou), it was clearly not the launcher for that market. For polar and SSO, the Equator actually hurts performance. And it's very difficult to find non-military spacecrafts in the >4.5 tonnes that they can do. So it would be right for the Earth Observation market. Incidentally, Canada does have some of those programs. And they are, along Russian, the most interested in Polar observation and communications satellites, for obvious reasons.

Offline robertross

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English version has appeared on their web site.

Here's a week old update from Yuzhnoye itself: http://www.yuzhnoye.com/en/press-center/pressrelises/pressrelis-copy_39.html

Looks like they're considering launching from North America, partnering up with whoever is willing to take on the construction costs for the launch site.

And I would bet that there would be demands that governments give them tax breaks, free/cheap land, property tax reductions, and even cheap electricity rates in exchange for a few hundred (= dozens) of jobs.
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Offline robertross

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Does Canada's northern latitude and climate afford reasonable launch capability? At least Brazil was equatorial. And does Canada have the requisite domestic satellite market to usefully benefit and sustain the company? Or will they overwhelmingly rely on foreign launch customers?


The climate should be a problem. Although a different beast, the Soyuz & Proton rockets seem to launch just fine in cold climates (in some respects worse than what we get). Churchill, Manitoba is a bit more challenging than the other potential launch sites, mainly due to access, but also the mosquitoes larger than a loonie ($1 coin), but still an respectable 8-month launch window.
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Offline ChamberPressure

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http://acuriousguy.blogspot.ca/2016/09/ukranian-based-yuzhnoye-design-bureau.html

According to this, the province of New Brunswick is being considered for a possible Canadian launch site.

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CBCNews now reports that Canso-Hazel Hill, Nova Scotia is now considered for a possible launch location.

Why a $100M rocket launch site might be coming to Nova Scotia

"Maritime Launch Services holding public meeting tonight to discuss its plans for Canso-Hazel Hill area"


Edit: Found another article that has more background info. MSL (Maritime Launch Services, the company behind the project) talks of $110m cost to set up a launch pad and plans to offer LEO and SSO launches for $45m.

Maritime Launch Services to Decide on Nova Scotia Spaceport in March
« Last Edit: 02/10/2017 08:20 PM by calapine »

Offline Arch Admiral

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This is a fantasy project from a dying manufacturer. There hasn't been a Tsiklon launch since 2009.
Yuznoye is not going to get any further business from the Russians so they have to try for a Western market. Anyway, Tsiklon is basically Titan II technology - nobody in their right minds would build a new launch pad for it. This project is dead on arrival.

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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I find the news releases about the proposed Cyclone 4M launchsite in Canada a bit contradictory.
Cyclone 4 as discribed on the Yuzhnoye website, is a three stage launcher using NTO-UDMH.
On the spaceq.ca article they describe Cyclone 4M as:
A two stage launcher. The first stage is derived of zenith and uses LOx-RG1. The second stage and fairing are the same as on Cyclone 4.

I hope they propose the Mayak L2 launcher. Then the second stage is also LOx-RG1. The engines would be: first stage 2x RD801; second stage 2x RD809K.
Using NTO-UDMH would be using 70s technology. Using LOX-RG1 would be modern technology.

Offline hop

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Using NTO-UDMH would be using 70s technology. Using LOX-RG1 would be modern technology.
IMHO, 70s vs modern isn't really the issue, after all the first orbital rockets was LOX/RG1. The real issue is that getting environmental approval for an all hypergolic LV would (rightly) be extremely difficult if not impossible in a country like Canada.

However, the non-hypergolic "Cyclone" doesn't actually exist, so there would be very significant development costs.

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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This is primarily a "breakout" strategy - they want to get a means of launching vehicles.

If they can get (and launch) a few missions, they can get cash flow/net profit bootstrapped.

Then they uprate/upgrade LV/pad/GSE and keep on rolling. Don't get hung up on the names/terms.

It's more about Canada in this case than it is about Yuzhnoye. And that's why the Brazil deal didn't work.

Also, between Russia and Canada is an entirely different relationship than Brazil and Russian.

If this were to happen, which it might for some amusing reasons having to do with strategic overreach, the smartest thing for Brazil to do would be to "piggyback" it. If they could.

As to LV, Cyclone is a done deal and works. If you just want to enter the LRE LV game, it's perfect for that. If you wanted to upscale, you'd first move to a kerolox first stage and then perhaps a Mayak ...

But first you need a means of launching. Now, if you could go back to SeaLaunch Commander(Lemurian Star) and  Ocean Odyssey you'd have an even better means to the same end, but the owners of that would be highly opposed to that and definitely not for profitability/revenue reasons ... while the Canadian's have an entirely different "need".

Using NTO-UDMH would be using 70s technology. Using LOX-RG1 would be modern technology.
IMHO, 70s vs modern isn't really the issue, after all the first orbital rockets was LOX/RG1. The real issue is that getting environmental approval for an all hypergolic LV would (rightly) be extremely difficult if not impossible in a country like Canada.
Yes.

But if it were a limited time, limited scope hazard, they might be able to use the same rubrik that Russia used to keep Proton launching in Kazakhstan (albeit more indefinite).

Quote
However, the non-hypergolic "Cyclone" doesn't actually exist, so there would be very significant development costs.

Matter of pad/facilities/GSE. Suggest you overbuild the pad/facilities and have a "mount on a mount". Then you phase over to a different LV, where your first few missions might be integrated "elsewhere" and just launched at the pad. Total cost is kept to a minimum.

As to the hybrid vehicle, you view the hyper US as if a encapsulated third stage with a dummy second stage. ;)

Little cost because you don't spend much time on the past, leveraging most off the present/recent/future.

Offline robertross

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T-minus 1 year until rocket launch site construction starts in Nova Scotia

"The province will soon be the site of a rocket spaceport. Tuesday morning an American company announced plans to build the facility near Canso, N.S., and begin construction within one year.

Maritime Launch Services hopes to launch eight rockets annually by 2022, according to a news release from the company."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/rocket-launch-site-confirmed-for-canso-nova-scotia-1.4023808

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Offline Lars-J

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Maritime Launch Services selects Nova Scotia site for spaceport
« Reply #37 on: 03/14/2017 08:20 PM »
I didn't see a thread about this, but I thought it might be of interest...

http://www.spaceq.ca/maritime-launch-services-selects-nova-scotia-site-for-spaceport-over-13-other-locations/

Some choice quotes:
Quote
Maritime Launch Services (MLS) will announce today that it has selected a site in the Guysborough Municipality near Canso and Hazel Hill, Nova Scotia over 13 other prospective locations for its new commercial launch complex, or spaceport, and expects to break ground on construction within a year.
...
MLS is after the medium class launch market. They are offering two launch options to begin with. Option 1 is a Sun-synchronous orbit launch between 600-800 km, a much desired service at this time for smaller satellites, with a payload up to 3350 kg for US$45 million. Option 2 is a Low Earth Orbit launch, below 600 km in altitude, that will allow a payload up to 5000 kg also for US$45 million.
...
Yuzhnoye Design Office along with Yuzhmash of the Ukraine will be supplying MLS with a new variant of the Cyclone rocket, the 4M, and CEO John Isella had previously told SpaceQ of the new design, “the Cyclone 4 upper stage and fairing remain unchanged and the first stage is now derived from the Zenit family of vehicles using an existing Lox-RP engine that is produced in Ukraine. So a 2 stage vehicle, Lox-RP first stage.”
...
Isella said MLS hopes that it can get through the “regulatory processes, approvals and site planning” so that after ground breaking next year the first launch from the new Spaceport could happen within two years in 2020. MLS is hoping to launch eight rockets a year by 2022.

So how serious is this? It seems like an outlandish idea to launch a Ukranian rocket (Cyclone/Tsyklon 4M) in Canada.

Offline robertross

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I didn't see a thread about this, but I thought it might be of interest...

http://www.spaceq.ca/maritime-launch-services-selects-nova-scotia-site-for-spaceport-over-13-other-locations/

Some choice quotes:
Quote
Maritime Launch Services (MLS) will announce today that it has selected a site in the Guysborough Municipality near Canso and Hazel Hill, Nova Scotia over 13 other prospective locations for its new commercial launch complex, or spaceport, and expects to break ground on construction within a year.
...
MLS is after the medium class launch market. They are offering two launch options to begin with. Option 1 is a Sun-synchronous orbit launch between 600-800 km, a much desired service at this time for smaller satellites, with a payload up to 3350 kg for US$45 million. Option 2 is a Low Earth Orbit launch, below 600 km in altitude, that will allow a payload up to 5000 kg also for US$45 million.
...
Yuzhnoye Design Office along with Yuzhmash of the Ukraine will be supplying MLS with a new variant of the Cyclone rocket, the 4M, and CEO John Isella had previously told SpaceQ of the new design, “the Cyclone 4 upper stage and fairing remain unchanged and the first stage is now derived from the Zenit family of vehicles using an existing Lox-RP engine that is produced in Ukraine. So a 2 stage vehicle, Lox-RP first stage.”
...
Isella said MLS hopes that it can get through the “regulatory processes, approvals and site planning” so that after ground breaking next year the first launch from the new Spaceport could happen within two years in 2020. MLS is hoping to launch eight rockets a year by 2022.

So how serious is this? It seems like an outlandish idea to launch a Ukranian rocket (Cyclone/Tsyklon 4M) in Canada.

No, it's a go (after the environmental impact studies & such)
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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Here's the launch vehicle. LOX/Kero first stage derived from Zenit first stage, but using Ukrainian engines. This could be the RD-801, which is in development.

http://www.yuzhnoye.com/en/technique/rocket-engines/marching/rd-801/

That has a sea level thrust of 1199 kN. Four engines has a thrust of 4794 kN. Another engine in development is the RD-810.

http://www.yuzhnoye.com/en/technique/rocket-engines/marching/rd-810/

That has a sea level thrust of 1876 kN, giving a lift-off thrust of 7505 kN.
« Last Edit: 03/15/2017 05:26 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline starbase

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@spaceflight101 has a detailed article on this endeavour: http://spaceflight101.com/maritime-launch-services-selects-nova-scotia-launch-site/

Offline baldusi

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Here's the launch vehicle. LOX/Kero first stage derived from Zenit first stage, but using Ukrainian engines. This could be the RD-801, which is in development.

http://www.yuzhnoye.com/en/technique/rocket-engines/marching/rd-801/

That has a sea level thrust of 1199 kN. Four engines has a thrust of 4794 kN. Another engine in development is the RD-810.

http://www.yuzhnoye.com/en/technique/rocket-engines/marching/rd-810/

That has a sea level thrust of 1876 kN, giving a lift-off thrust of 7505 kN.

Look at the stats and compare the RD-801 with the Chinese YF-100 and the RD-810 with the Indian SCE-200. You are not going to convince me easily that those pairs are not related. I heard that the Ukrainians sold the blueprints for each and the Chinese and Indians had to develop the materials, models and certification process.

Offline gospacex

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Yuzhnoye is a government enterprise, and Ukrainian government is inefficient and worse, incredibly corrupt.
Klepto-politicians continue to pilfer public funds on a massive scale even while the war with Russia is ongoing.
Feeble attempts at "reforms" in economy, politics, judiciary, police, tax collection stalled. Now most people who tried to execute those reforms are fired.
GDP per capita is falling to nearly Africa-like levels.

I am trying to see how the idea with Cyclone-4 can possibly work in light of this environment... Maybe Canadians can privatize Yuzhnoye in its entirety?
« Last Edit: 03/15/2017 02:32 PM by gospacex »

Offline robertross

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Yuzhnoye is a government enterprise, and Ukrainian government is inefficient and worse, incredibly corrupt.
Klepto-politicians continue to pilfer public funds on a massive scale even while the war with Russia is ongoing.
Feeble attempts at "reforms" in economy, politics, judiciary, police, tax collection stalled. Now most people who tried to execute those reforms are fired.
GDP per capita is falling to nearly Africa-like levels.

I am trying to see how the idea with Cyclone-4 can possibly work in light of this environment... Maybe Canadians can privatize Yuzhnoye in its entirety?

Actually Canada & the Ukraine have reasonable close ties (mostly in opposition to Russian aggression on the world stage). We are often looking at ways to help & do business with the Ukrainians (while at the same time trying NOT to offend Russians). This is a reasonably sound way to do that.

(it's hard playing both sides of the fence,  but we certainly like to try)
Remembering those who made the ultimate sacrifice for our rights & freedoms, and for those injured, visible or otherwise, in that fight.

Offline Billium

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When I tweeted the link, a few Canadians responded with the potential of Churchill?

The only possibility would be Churchill, Manitoba, which is on the left edge of James Bay (close to our arctic area) in the center of our country.

Again, that is a potential non-starter these days due to indigenous people's land rights, and contamination due to hypergols.


(as for hypergols, its use on payloads 'might' get approval, but certainly not on the rocket's launch stages)

Just for interest, Churchill used to be our "spaceport" and we used to launch our sounding rockets out of there, and it has rail links (for the moment at least) and port (for the moment). We used to ship lots of grain out of Churchill too, I won't get into the politics of what is going on up there now, but they really are looking for some economic development.

Offline edkyle99

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Looks familiar.

 - Ed Kyle

Offline robertross

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When I tweeted the link, a few Canadians responded with the potential of Churchill?

The only possibility would be Churchill, Manitoba, which is on the left edge of James Bay (close to our arctic area) in the center of our country.

Again, that is a potential non-starter these days due to indigenous people's land rights, and contamination due to hypergols.


(as for hypergols, its use on payloads 'might' get approval, but certainly not on the rocket's launch stages)

Just for interest, Churchill used to be our "spaceport" and we used to launch our sounding rockets out of there, and it has rail links (for the moment at least) and port (for the moment). We used to ship lots of grain out of Churchill too, I won't get into the politics of what is going on up there now, but they really are looking for some economic development.

I know. I used to be a member of the High Power Rocketry Association.  ;)
Remembering those who made the ultimate sacrifice for our rights & freedoms, and for those injured, visible or otherwise, in that fight.

Offline russianhalo117

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Looks familiar.

 - Ed Kyle
except 4 chamber.engine version

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Looks familiar.

Cyclone 4M = edit: Florida Mayak-L
(the initially intended heavier variant of Antares, with a liquid upper-stage instead of Castor 30(XL))
I think it's very unlikely Cyclone 4M will use hypergolic propellants.

?4x RD-801?
« Last Edit: 03/16/2017 06:02 PM by Rik ISS-fan »

Offline russianhalo117

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Looks familiar.

Cyclone 4M = Mayak-L2
(the initially intended heavier variant of Antares, with a liquid upper-stage instead of Castor 30(XL))
I think it's very unlikely Cyclone 4M will use hypergolic propellants.

?4x RD-801?
possibly

Offline Danderman

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A LOX/Kerosene system flying over Hudson's Bay might work, but no bucks, no Buck Rogers.

Offline gospacex

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Yuzhnoye is a government enterprise, and Ukrainian government is inefficient and worse, incredibly corrupt.
Klepto-politicians continue to pilfer public funds on a massive scale even while the war with Russia is ongoing.
Feeble attempts at "reforms" in economy, politics, judiciary, police, tax collection stalled. Now most people who tried to execute those reforms are fired.
GDP per capita is falling to nearly Africa-like levels.

I am trying to see how the idea with Cyclone-4 can possibly work in light of this environment... Maybe Canadians can privatize Yuzhnoye in its entirety?

Actually Canada & the Ukraine have reasonable close ties (mostly in opposition to Russian aggression on the world stage).

Correct. Ukrainians and Canadians as nations are on friendly terms. No problem there.

The problem lies with Ukrainian individuals who are in charge of Yuzhmash. Just about any Ukrainian government enterprise is in bad financial shape (because management steals $$$) and therefore you can never be sure whether they'd execute their contractual obligations on time, on budget and with desired quality.
« Last Edit: 03/15/2017 11:14 PM by gospacex »

Offline robertross

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Yuzhnoye is a government enterprise, and Ukrainian government is inefficient and worse, incredibly corrupt.
Klepto-politicians continue to pilfer public funds on a massive scale even while the war with Russia is ongoing.
Feeble attempts at "reforms" in economy, politics, judiciary, police, tax collection stalled. Now most people who tried to execute those reforms are fired.
GDP per capita is falling to nearly Africa-like levels.

I am trying to see how the idea with Cyclone-4 can possibly work in light of this environment... Maybe Canadians can privatize Yuzhnoye in its entirety?

Actually Canada & the Ukraine have reasonable close ties (mostly in opposition to Russian aggression on the world stage).

Correct. Ukrainians and Canadians as nations are on friendly terms. No problem there.

The problem lies with Ukrainian individuals who are in charge of Yuzhmash. Just about any Ukrainian government enterprise is in bad financial shape (because management steals $$$) and therefore you can never be sure whether they'd execute their contractual obligations on time, on budget and with desired quality.

Well I don't foresee that to be a problem for the launch site, only the launch customers.

This is only about jobs for the local people (and maybe some revenue) - nothing more.
Remembering those who made the ultimate sacrifice for our rights & freedoms, and for those injured, visible or otherwise, in that fight.

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Possibly some future for AR-1

Offline russianhalo117

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Looks familiar.

Cyclone 4M = Mayak-L2
(the initially intended heavier variant of Antares, with a liquid upper-stage instead of Castor 30(XL))
I think it's very unlikely Cyclone 4M will use hypergolic propellants.

?4x RD-801?
possibly
Anatoly Zak reports per his industry sources that first stage is using a version of RD-120 (Four modified RD-120 engines known in Ukraine as RD-810): http://russianspaceweb.com/tsyklon4m.html
« Last Edit: 03/16/2017 06:40 PM by russianhalo117 »

Offline The man in the can

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Ukrainian Tsklon-4M coming to Canada?
« Reply #55 on: 03/19/2017 09:30 PM »
From Anatoly Zak : http://www.russianspaceweb.com/tsyklon4m.html

As a Canadian I was surprised to read this!  :o
« Last Edit: 03/19/2017 09:31 PM by The man in the can »

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Ukrainian Tsklon-4M coming to Canada?
« Reply #56 on: 03/19/2017 09:36 PM »
Great news for Nova Scotia! :)
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob, Physics instructor, aviator, vintage auto racer

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Basically 4 single axis gimballed RD-120 derivatives with indigenous production.

Offline ChamberPressure

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New details about the proposed launch site and operations: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/canso-rocket-launch-pad-space-port-control-centre-rail-track-1.4065566

Also, it looks like it's confirmed the C4M will be using 4 RD-870 kerolox engines in the first stage (http://www.russianspaceweb.com/rd870.html), and 1 RD-861K engine with N2O4/UDMH propellants in the second stage.

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Offline THeel01

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Additional news:
http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/1463244-up-up-and-away-canso-ready-for-spaceport

For admin's: Should this topic be moved to International Space Flight, or is it too soon?

Offline THeel01

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Website shows leadership change.

Steve Matier CEO & President
Yaroslav Pustovyi: VP of Strategic Development

John Isella no longer listed

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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MLS making progress on planned spaceport

Quote from: Guysborough Journal
MLS has been working on launch vehicle development, securing clients, environmental assessments and regulatory approval in recent months. Activities include environmental assessment seasonal data collection; finalization of the layout for the launch site to meet safety criteria and topographic mapping and surveying.
...
The company announced that Lindsay Construction has been chosen as the construction management partner and will focus on the overall launch site construction effort as well as aid in the selection of the architectural and engineering (A&E) design team.
...
MLS, Yuzhnoye and Yuzhmash have signed a formal Memorandum of Cooperation for the delivery of Cyclone 4M rockets to the launch complex. MLS visited with the heads of these partnering companies in Dnipro, Ukraine for contractual discussions in late August.
...
Signed Letters of Intent with satellite clients have been secured by MLS with more in the works. Nearly $400 million in commitments from satellite clients have been confirmed to fill the payload capacity of 3350 kg aboard the Cyclone 4M.
...
Pending regulatory approvals in the coming months, MLS plans to break ground for construction in spring of 2018.

Offline robertross

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MLS making progress on planned spaceport

Quote from: Guysborough Journal
MLS has been working on launch vehicle development, securing clients, environmental assessments and regulatory approval in recent months. Activities include environmental assessment seasonal data collection; finalization of the layout for the launch site to meet safety criteria and topographic mapping and surveying.
...
The company announced that Lindsay Construction has been chosen as the construction management partner and will focus on the overall launch site construction effort as well as aid in the selection of the architectural and engineering (A&E) design team.


Lindsay is a really good local construction firm.
I wonder if our company/group should pursue any scope of supply opportunities?  ;)
Remembering those who made the ultimate sacrifice for our rights & freedoms, and for those injured, visible or otherwise, in that fight.

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Maritime Launch Service making progress on Nova Scotia spaceport

Quote from: Karen Graham
A target price of $45 million per launch is being suggested with a payload of up to 3,350 kilograms (7,385 pounds) allowed. The rocket is also suitable for sun-synchronous orbit applications. MLS notes that signed Letters of Intent with satellite clients have already been secured, with more to come.



Offline robertross

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Proposed Canso rocket site hopes to eventually reach 12 launches per year

"With a launch date of 2020, and 18 months of construction and six months of commissioning, you can see where we've got to get to groundbreaking. So this is an important and key time for us," said the executive, who represents a consortium of three U.S.-based space firms.

He presented rocket designers and executives from Ukrainian-based Yuzhnoye Design with a case of Rocket Lager craft beer — recently created in Guysborough County by a craft brewer and featuring an astronaut on its label.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/canso-spaceport-launch-outline-1.4431692

Remembering those who made the ultimate sacrifice for our rights & freedoms, and for those injured, visible or otherwise, in that fight.

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