Author Topic: Ukrainian Cyclone 4 Launch Operations will be Established in North America  (Read 17253 times)

Online Chris Bergin

Interesting presser just turned up from Yuzhnoye!

Online robertross

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Interesting presser just turned up from Yuzhnoye!

Hmmm.

Well if they wanted to establish a launch facility on the East Coast of Canada, it would likely be in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia (which has already pushed to have a launch facility built there).

However, the people there would take a seriously dim view of hypergolic fuels potentially contaminating fishing grounds in the area.

On the West Coast of Canada, it would most likely have to face indigenous people's spiritual lands, for which I wouldn't blame them from blocking development. They have largely been ignored for generations, but with our new Liberal government in power, who is attempting to empower them with self government & treated with proper respect, I'm sure they would not wish to threaten the waterways there, or risk sensitive habitat.

We are in a new world of environmental oversight here in Canada (whatever that truly means at the end of the day...big business always seems to get their way through politicians)
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Offline Oberon_Command

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However, the people there would take a seriously dim view of hypergolic fuels potentially contaminating fishing grounds in the area.

On the West Coast of Canada, it would most likely have to face indigenous people's spiritual lands, for which I wouldn't blame them from blocking development. They have largely been ignored for generations, but with our new Liberal government in power, who is attempting to empower them with self government & treated with proper respect, I'm sure they would not wish to threaten the waterways there, or risk sensitive habitat.

As a Canadian myself, this. I don't see any hypergol-fuelled rocket launching from Canadian soil any time soon. Might get away with a different fuel type, though. Maybe LOX/LH2, or CH4/LOX? I don't see any RP-1-fueled rocket flying from the Pacific Northwest, for sure. We get enough of an uproar over oil pipelines running through the province and fuel spills in English Bay that I think there would be some pretty fierce opposition. Not sure how our friends in the Maritimes would feel about RP-1, though.

Though, this does make me wonder if Zenit could ever fly from Canadian soil?
« Last Edit: 09/02/2016 02:28 AM by Oberon_Command »

Offline Lar

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If hypergolics are unlikely even for payloads, that cuts down the possible lifts such a rocket could do.
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Offline hop

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If hypergolics are unlikely even for payloads, that cuts down the possible lifts such a rocket could do.
Almost any launcher will carry some on payloads, but that's a very different story from a several hundred ton first stage. Hard to see a hypergolic first stage LV getting approval, and if it did, operations would likely be extremely expensive under US or Canadian regulations.

Offline russianhalo117

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If hypergolics are unlikely even for payloads, that cuts down the possible lifts such a rocket could do.
Almost any launcher will carry some on payloads, but that's a very different story from a several hundred ton first stage. Hard to see a hypergolic first stage LV getting approval, and if it did, operations would likely be extremely expensive under US or Canadian regulations.
well as governments clamp down on highly toxic hypergolics the transition to low or zero toxicity hypergolics (Green propellant) becomes important. Green propellants developed so far result less propellant mass with a higher ISP and a cheaper, shorter mission processing/launch campaign.

Offline Zed_Noir

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I think you can locate a launch site on the Eastern side of Newfoundland for even a hypergolic launcher.

Offline sdsds

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Looking at the stats (http://www.yuzhnoye.com/en/technique/launch-vehicles/rockets/cyclone-4/) it is close to 200 tons of lift-off mass; most of that would be NTO/UDMH. Has anything close to that ever flown out of Kodiak?
« Last Edit: 09/02/2016 04:54 AM by sdsds »
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Online Kryten

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Looking at the stats (http://www.yuzhnoye.com/en/technique/launch-vehicles/rockets/cyclone-4/) it is close to 200 tons of lift-off mass; most of that would be NTO/UDMH. Has anything close to that ever flown out of Kodiak?
Nothing liquid-fueled has ever flown out of Kodiak. The largest previous launch was a Minotaur IV+ at 90 tons.

Online Chris Bergin

When I tweeted the link, a few Canadians responded with the potential of Churchill?

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Doubt that this rocket can gain any market share anyway - this rocket is around Delta II - Antares class.
If it can't get any customers while based in Brazil, why would it have a chance in Canada/US?
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Online robertross

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When I tweeted the link, a few Canadians responded with the potential of Churchill?

The only possibility would be Churchill, Manitoba, which is on the left edge of James Bay (close to our arctic area) in the center of our country.

Again, that is a potential non-starter these days due to indigenous people's land rights, and contamination due to hypergols.


(as for hypergols, its use on payloads 'might' get approval, but certainly not on the rocket's launch stages)
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Online robertross

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Doubt that this rocket can gain any market share anyway - this rocket is around Delta II - Antares class.
If it can't get any customers while based in Brazil, why would it have a chance in Canada/US?

Canada would love to have the 'prestige' of a launch facility, but it shies away from the risk which could affect its natural resources (which includes pristine views for tourism). Like all projects: we want the jobs, but not any baggage that goes along with it ('threat' of environmental damage, obstructed views, noise, and other pollution - all from past experience). Canada would offer incentives like free land use, zero (or low) taxes, and other concessions though to get a 'jobs' program.
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Offline Archibald

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Wow, this rocket project still alive ? talk about beating a dead horse. Hypergols only make it worse. They spent twenty years trying to cut a deal with Brazil, and zilch, nada.
 So, I'll believe in it when it will fly for good- see you in twenty years.  :P 
« Last Edit: 09/02/2016 03:41 PM by Archibald »

Offline baldusi

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AIUI, they have everything mostly developed, even the pad equipment. And it was clearly not the right size for an Equatorial launch site. But for something polar it is a perfect match with a launch legacy only comparable to Atlas II.
I do believe that the hypegolics will make it a non start anywhere in North America. But if they had presented a project with an RD-801 first stage and an RD-809 second stage Malyak, it would be a perfect launch vehicle from a very credible developer.

Offline Prober

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slightly off topic, but this is aerospace.


http://www.antonov.com/news/478

China and Ukraine are going to build the largest plane in the world

Do a google search for articles on this.....but it begs the question any China interests in Cyclone launches?








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Offline dasmoth

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but it begs the question any China interests in Cyclone launches?

Why would China be interested in another hypergolic launcher that's towards the lower end of LM2-family performance?

Especially since they're in the middle of a fairly concerted switch to new kerolox launchers.
« Last Edit: 09/02/2016 07:36 PM by dasmoth »

Offline Prober

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but it begs the question any China interests in Cyclone launches?

Why would China be interested in another hypergolic launcher that's towards the lower end of LM2-family performance?

Especially since they're in the middle of a fairly concerted switch to new kerolox launchers.


Answer is a mix of politics and business.   China could do it for investment and get into the lower end launch market.  Atm don't think many north American small payloads will ship to China for launching, yet many small new small launchers/companies have started a business.


Agree that hypergolic wouldn't be the way to go, but we have this announcement, how would you address it?

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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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The website http://yuzhnoye-us.com takes you to the Yuzhnoye home page at

http://yuzhnoye.com/

The still have the Zenit Sea Launch and Land Launch prominently displayed! This is the Cyclone 4 page

http://yuzhnoye.com/en/technique/launch-vehicles/rockets/cyclone-4/

No mention of this North American initiative that I can see on their English web site. In

http://yuzhnoye.com/press-center/news/news_64.html

I found this comment (Bing translation):

"− search for interested investors to create a new pad for RN ęCyclone-4 "and promising pH (" Lighthouse "," vector "," Spike ", etc.);"
« Last Edit: 09/03/2016 06:54 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
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Offline russianhalo117

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but it begs the question any China interests in Cyclone launches?

Why would China be interested in another hypergolic launcher that's towards the lower end of LM2-family performance?

Especially since they're in the middle of a fairly concerted switch to new kerolox launchers.


Answer is a mix of politics and business.   China could do it for investment and get into the lower end launch market.  Atm don't think many north American small payloads will ship to China for launching, yet many small new small launchers/companies have started a business.


Agree that hypergolic wouldn't be the way to go, but we have this announcement, how would you address it?


The only way it could fly with storable prop would be switch and certify the launcher for use with Green hypergols such as those being developed by Europe and USA

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