Author Topic: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?  (Read 31435 times)

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #20 on: 05/31/2016 10:31 pm »
If you launch an Atlas 5 or an Ariane 5 without any other in assembly at the moment of the launch, you will also wait for two years the following liftoff !

Assembly of a rocket doesn't take that long, and if they do have an automated assembly line it especially won't take that long.  Months at the most.

My background is in manufacturing operations, so my guess would be that either A) they haven't approved production of the current design because the design has not been validated, or B) for some reason they have not approved procurement of the long-lead material.

I think what you were alluding to was that the long-lead material had not been ordered, but normally for a product that is assumed to have some level of demand the initial procurement would have been for more than just one unit.  Especially for long-lead items like engines and electronics, and material where you can get some sort of volume discount.

Based on all of that, I'm thinking they are having money flow issues, either from the government or from a lack of customer orders.  But that is just a guess.

Quote
And the fact that there was no Angara in assembly at the moment of the 2014's launch is not the consequence of some economical problems. It is a strategy which has been decided long before the first launch.

It's questionable because it's unusual.  They are an already existing business bringing out a new product that their customers should be clamoring for, and yet it seems like their schedule to become operational is rather slow.

Maybe it isn't slow, and we're just used to the fast pace of what SpaceX is doing.  But if they want to compete with SpaceX, they are going to have to pick up the pace a little...
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline Nicolas PILLET

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #21 on: 06/01/2016 04:47 am »
But if they want to compete with SpaceX, they are going to have to pick up the pace a little...

They absolutely don't want to compete with SpaceX. hey want to have a launcher :
- that doesn't use toxic propellant
- that can launch from Plesetsk and Vostochnyi
- that can allow complete independance for Russia for launching State payloads.
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Offline asmi

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #22 on: 06/01/2016 02:26 pm »
Maybe it isn't slow, and we're just used to the fast pace of what SpaceX is doing.  But if they want to compete with SpaceX, they are going to have to pick up the pace a little...
So far the only thing that is "fast" about SpaceX is their PR. For example FH was supposed to fly in 2013...
And this is why I hate space news from the future (this isn't specifically related to SpaceX, everybody does that to some extent). I will believe it when I see it.

Offline gospacex

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #23 on: 06/01/2016 02:33 pm »
Maybe it isn't slow, and we're just used to the fast pace of what SpaceX is doing.  But if they want to compete with SpaceX, they are going to have to pick up the pace a little...
So far the only thing that is "fast" about SpaceX is their PR. For example FH was supposed to fly in 2013...

A comparison is in order here. Angara project was approved by Russian govt in 1997, that is nearly 20 years ago, and about twice as long as entire history of SpaceX.

Offline asmi

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #24 on: 06/01/2016 02:45 pm »
A comparison is in order here. Angara project was approved by Russian govt in 1997, that is nearly 20 years ago, and about twice as long as entire history of SpaceX.
Already discussed many times. It was different Angara at the time. Still, several years late (and counting) is not "fast" in my book.

Offline Nicolas PILLET

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #25 on: 06/01/2016 06:38 pm »
A comparison is in order here. Angara project was approved by Russian govt in 1997, that is nearly 20 years ago, and about twice as long as entire history of SpaceX.

In 1997, many Russians didn't have enough money to give food to their children. Funding for Angara has begun many years later. Since it has been funded, the development has been quite quick.
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Offline ncb1397

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #26 on: 06/01/2016 06:43 pm »
Maybe it isn't slow, and we're just used to the fast pace of what SpaceX is doing.  But if they want to compete with SpaceX, they are going to have to pick up the pace a little...
So far the only thing that is "fast" about SpaceX is their PR. For example FH was supposed to fly in 2013...

A comparison is in order here. Angara project was approved by Russian govt in 1997, that is nearly 20 years ago, and about twice as long as entire history of SpaceX.

SpaceX has been around since 2002 - 14 years
1997 was 19 years ago. 19/14 is 1.35x, not "twice as long".

Offline gospacex

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #27 on: 06/01/2016 08:47 pm »
Maybe it isn't slow, and we're just used to the fast pace of what SpaceX is doing.  But if they want to compete with SpaceX, they are going to have to pick up the pace a little...
So far the only thing that is "fast" about SpaceX is their PR. For example FH was supposed to fly in 2013...

A comparison is in order here. Angara project was approved by Russian govt in 1997, that is nearly 20 years ago, and about twice as long as entire history of SpaceX.

SpaceX has been around since 2002 - 14 years
1997 was 19 years ago. 19/14 is 1.35x, not "twice as long".

I accept your correction.

It's is still illogical to complain that SpaceX is so "slowly" developed two new LVs, one new capsule, and three new engine families, but not have similar feelings towards Angara which took *longer* to develop one (modular) rocket and one new derivative of venerable RD-170.
« Last Edit: 06/01/2016 08:48 pm by gospacex »

Offline Star One

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #28 on: 06/01/2016 10:26 pm »
Maybe it isn't slow, and we're just used to the fast pace of what SpaceX is doing.  But if they want to compete with SpaceX, they are going to have to pick up the pace a little...
So far the only thing that is "fast" about SpaceX is their PR. For example FH was supposed to fly in 2013...

A comparison is in order here. Angara project was approved by Russian govt in 1997, that is nearly 20 years ago, and about twice as long as entire history of SpaceX.

SpaceX has been around since 2002 - 14 years
1997 was 19 years ago. 19/14 is 1.35x, not "twice as long".

I accept your correction.

It's is still illogical to complain that SpaceX is so "slowly" developed two new LVs, one new capsule, and three new engine families, but not have similar feelings towards Angara which took *longer* to develop one (modular) rocket and one new derivative of venerable RD-170.
No because the situations are utterly different.

Offline gospacex

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #29 on: 06/02/2016 12:41 pm »
Indeed, the situations are utterly different.

Unlike SpaceX, Angara developers did not have to earn one rusty ruble of R&D money, they had it all handed to them by Russian govt.

Offline Star One

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #30 on: 06/02/2016 01:06 pm »
Indeed, the situations are utterly different.

Unlike SpaceX, Angara developers did not have to earn one rusty ruble of R&D money, they had it all handed to them by Russian govt.

Just what exactly is your issue with Angara, surely on here we should have similar enthusiasm for all launcher systems, yet you take a relentlessly negative stance for some reason. One which I feel has no basis in logic, especially as the circumstances around Angara have been explained more than once.

Offline gospacex

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #31 on: 06/02/2016 01:57 pm »
Indeed, the situations are utterly different.

Unlike SpaceX, Angara developers did not have to earn one rusty ruble of R&D money, they had it all handed to them by Russian govt.

Just what exactly is your issue with Angara, surely on here we should have similar enthusiasm for all launcher systems.

I have enthusiasm for all launch systems which make trips to space cheaper.
Why I should be positive towards organizations which would very much like to prevent that from happening, I don't understand. Khrunichev is one of them.

Offline Star One

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #32 on: 06/02/2016 02:01 pm »
Indeed, the situations are utterly different.

Unlike SpaceX, Angara developers did not have to earn one rusty ruble of R&D money, they had it all handed to them by Russian govt.

Just what exactly is your issue with Angara, surely on here we should have similar enthusiasm for all launcher systems.

I have enthusiasm for all launch systems which make trips to space cheaper.
Why I should be positive towards organizations which would very much like to prevent that from happening, I don't understand. Khrunichev is one of them.

Who is preventing anything.

Offline Nicolas PILLET

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #33 on: 06/02/2016 03:55 pm »
Indeed, the situations are utterly different.

Unlike SpaceX, Angara developers did not have to earn one rusty ruble of R&D money, they had it all handed to them by Russian govt.

This is not correct. Russian government did not give to Khrunichev the money they had promised. Khrunichev had to sell Proton via ILS to fund itself the development of Angara.
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Offline tyrred

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #34 on: 06/08/2016 08:24 am »
Proton is a venerable rocket family, not without it's faults and considerable teething problems.  First designed to deliver Tsar-Bomba-yield nuclear payloads. 

Suggest that highly toxic propellants should be reserved for death weapons.  Which IMO should be used only as last resort.

If Angara can be fielded as a cleaner, modern, modular launch system to replace Proton, I suggest that would be significant improvement over an old workhorse that should be put out to pasture.

The economics are an issue, for certain.  It seems to me that if there is enough will, talent, and cooperation people tend to get things done in ways that are surprising. 

My 2 cents.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #35 on: 06/08/2016 05:48 pm »
You are not addressing my point: Angara has almost no orders now, and will have rather low chances of getting new orders in 2020+. Of course, Russian govt payloads will fly on Russian LVs. But hardly anything else. Under these conditions, Angara will stay more expensive than today's Proton.
Only Angara-1.2 variant is presently the only variant available for commercial orders. In order to accelerate its launch rate the ICBM conversional launcher fleet must be retired because their prices are to low compared to Angara, Which by the way is still in the flight test and certification phase. Until Vostochny pad(s) for Angara are built and come online there will only be Medium payload class launches to GTO and SSTO via Plesetsk.  The government plan once Vostochny pads are online is to first phase out government Proton missions and then kick the commercial payloads over to Angara-A5 by setting in thew second phase a finite amount of Proton-Ms available for order and by setting retirement dates for all of Khrunichev Space Centres' hypergolic launchers.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #36 on: 06/08/2016 09:43 pm »
A lot of belly-aching here! I'm just glad they're finally replacing Proton, which is a crazy environmental disaster every launch. Angara is a nice step, the first big basically clean-sheet rocket since the end of the Cold War. I wish the Russians luck.
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Offline faramund

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #37 on: 06/10/2016 10:48 am »
A lot of belly-aching here! I'm just glad they're finally replacing Proton, which is a crazy environmental disaster every launch. Angara is a nice step, the first big basically clean-sheet rocket since the end of the Cold War. I wish the Russians luck.
But still, if Proton is cheaper, its easier to understand why the Russians are taking time to change over. I find it somewhat bizarre, as usually when a new launcher comes out, while yes it might have environmental benefits, but it almost always promises to be cheaper than its predecessor.

If Angara isn't cheaper, something wrong seems to have happened during the design process.

Offline gospacex

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #38 on: 06/10/2016 05:13 pm »
You are not addressing my point: Angara has almost no orders now, and will have rather low chances of getting new orders in 2020+. Of course, Russian govt payloads will fly on Russian LVs. But hardly anything else. Under these conditions, Angara will stay more expensive than today's Proton.
Only Angara-1.2 variant is presently the only variant available for commercial orders. In order to accelerate its launch rate the ICBM conversional launcher fleet must be retired because their prices are to low compared to Angara, Which by the way is still in the flight test and certification phase. Until Vostochny pad(s) for Angara are built and come online there will only be Medium payload class launches to GTO and SSTO via Plesetsk.  The government plan once Vostochny pads are online is to first phase out government Proton missions and then kick the commercial payloads over to Angara-A5 by setting in thew second phase a finite amount of Proton-Ms available for order and by setting retirement dates for all of Khrunichev Space Centres' hypergolic launchers.

What commercial payloads?

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #39 on: 06/10/2016 08:41 pm »
You are not addressing my point: Angara has almost no orders now, and will have rather low chances of getting new orders in 2020+. Of course, Russian govt payloads will fly on Russian LVs. But hardly anything else. Under these conditions, Angara will stay more expensive than today's Proton.
Only Angara-1.2 variant is presently the only variant available for commercial orders. In order to accelerate its launch rate the ICBM conversional launcher fleet must be retired because their prices are to low compared to Angara, Which by the way is still in the flight test and certification phase. Until Vostochny pad(s) for Angara are built and come online there will only be Medium payload class launches to GTO and SSTO via Plesetsk.  The government plan once Vostochny pads are online is to first phase out government Proton missions and then kick the commercial payloads over to Angara-A5 by setting in thew second phase a finite amount of Proton-Ms available for order and by setting retirement dates for all of Khrunichev Space Centres' hypergolic launchers.

What commercial payloads?
Angara-A1.2 will pick up payloads from Dnepr, Rockot. Only already manifested payloads on Dnepr and Rockot will not fly on Angara-A1.2. Several payloads which have applied to launch those conversional launchers but have not been assigned a launcher is being directed toward Angara-A1.2

 

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