Author Topic: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?  (Read 31437 times)

Offline Arcas

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Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« on: 05/30/2016 01:56 am »
There were two launches in 2014 of their brand new rocket, and they haven't launched in a year and a half since. Does anyone know the reason for this?
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Offline Nicolas PILLET

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #1 on: 05/30/2016 04:16 am »
At the time the second Angara lifted off, assembly of the third one had not yet began.
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Offline fregate

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #2 on: 05/30/2016 05:19 am »
There were two launches in 2014 of their brand new rocket, and they haven't launched in a year and a half since. Does anyone know the reason for this?
They are moving LV stages production from Moscow (Khrunichev Center, Moscow) to Omsk (PO Polyot). Takes time :(
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Offline rocx

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #3 on: 05/30/2016 08:32 am »
It probably has something to do with this..
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Offline gospacex

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #4 on: 05/30/2016 09:22 am »
There were two launches in 2014 of their brand new rocket, and they haven't launched in a year and a half since. Does anyone know the reason for this?

Angara costs more than Proton.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #5 on: 05/30/2016 12:30 pm »
There were two launches in 2014 of their brand new rocket, and they haven't launched in a year and a half since. Does anyone know the reason for this?

Angara costs more than Proton.
That is at first, since they did it mostly manually in Moscow and are moving to a highly automated factory in Omsk. Of course that having the company basically broke doesn't help.

Offline gospacex

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #6 on: 05/30/2016 12:42 pm »
More info can be gleaned from russian space forums, for example, this thread:

http://novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/forum/forum13/topic14980/?PAGEN_1=338

Latest news is that their top management tries to perform one launch this year in December; people from industry doubt this can be done.
« Last Edit: 05/30/2016 12:46 pm by gospacex »

Offline Nicolas PILLET

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #7 on: 05/30/2016 05:43 pm »
It probably has something to do with this..
*

No, it has nothing to do with this. The second launch of Angara is not postponed. It has always been scheduled for the end of 2016 or the beginning of 2017. If you launch an Atlas 5 or an Ariane 5 without any other in assembly at the moment of the launch, you will also wait for two years the following liftoff !

And the fact that there was no Angara in assembly at the moment of the 2014's launch is not the consequence of some economical problems. It is a strategy which has been decided long before the first launch.
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Offline baldusi

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #8 on: 05/30/2016 10:24 pm »
Outfitting Omsk given the financial strain of Khrunichev must have brought some difficulties.

Offline gospacex

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #9 on: 05/30/2016 11:48 pm »
There were two launches in 2014 of their brand new rocket, and they haven't launched in a year and a half since. Does anyone know the reason for this?

Angara costs more than Proton.
That is at first, since they did it mostly manually in Moscow and are moving to a highly automated factory in Omsk. Of course that having the company basically broke doesn't help.

Having highly automated factory doesn't help one iota when you have no orders.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #10 on: 05/31/2016 01:30 am »
There were two launches in 2014 of their brand new rocket, and they haven't launched in a year and a half since. Does anyone know the reason for this?

Angara costs more than Proton.
That is at first, since they did it mostly manually in Moscow and are moving to a highly automated factory in Omsk. Of course that having the company basically broke doesn't help.

Having highly automated factory doesn't help one iota when you have no orders.
Orders have been placed. Look at the Russian Launch Schedule. Also keep in mind that the Angara Family is still solely in the testing and certification phase.

Offline gospacex

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #11 on: 05/31/2016 09:31 am »
There were two launches in 2014 of their brand new rocket, and they haven't launched in a year and a half since. Does anyone know the reason for this?

Angara costs more than Proton.
That is at first, since they did it mostly manually in Moscow and are moving to a highly automated factory in Omsk. Of course that having the company basically broke doesn't help.

Having highly automated factory doesn't help one iota when you have no orders.
Orders have been placed. Look at the Russian Launch Schedule. Also keep in mind that the Angara Family is still solely in the testing and certification phase.

Two or three launches in 2017, none in 2018, and one in 2019? Among them only one is not a Russian govt launch? That's basically nothing.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #12 on: 05/31/2016 12:19 pm »
There were two launches in 2014 of their brand new rocket, and they haven't launched in a year and a half since. Does anyone know the reason for this?

Angara costs more than Proton.
That is at first, since they did it mostly manually in Moscow and are moving to a highly automated factory in Omsk. Of course that having the company basically broke doesn't help.

Having highly automated factory doesn't help one iota when you have no orders.
Orders have been placed. Look at the Russian Launch Schedule. Also keep in mind that the Angara Family is still solely in the testing and certification phase.

Two or three launches in 2017, none in 2018, and one in 2019? Among them only one is not a Russian govt launch? That's basically nothing.
IOC is expected for 2020. Before that is just part of the Russian development process. They have validated the Angara-5 design. Now they have to validate the Angara-1.2 (the 1PP used the A5 upper stage). After that they have to apply the new manufacturing methods of the PO Polyot factory, like FSW. And then they usually take something like 10 flights to consider a LV commissioned. That's how they do it and it has worked for them.

Offline gospacex

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #13 on: 05/31/2016 12:49 pm »
You are not addressing my point: Angara has almost no orders now, and will have rather low chances of getting new orders in 2020+. Of course, Russian govt payloads will fly on Russian LVs. But hardly anything else. Under these conditions, Angara will stay more expensive than today's Proton.
« Last Edit: 05/31/2016 12:50 pm by gospacex »

Offline Star One

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Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #14 on: 05/31/2016 03:43 pm »
You are not addressing my point: Angara has almost no orders now, and will have rather low chances of getting new orders in 2020+. Of course, Russian govt payloads will fly on Russian LVs. But hardly anything else. Under these conditions, Angara will stay more expensive than today's Proton.

And you don't seem to be listening to what people have already explained to you in this thread about the reasons for the low launching rate.
« Last Edit: 05/31/2016 03:45 pm by Star One »

Offline Lar

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #15 on: 05/31/2016 04:23 pm »
Be excellent to each other, participants should try to carefully read and understand what the other person is saying, and explain why they think someone's off the mark, rather than accusing each other of not listening.

What I hear is someone saying the low launch rate means the development process might be drawn out, and the cost won't come down as much as might be desired, while someone else is saying that the low launch rate doesn't mean that development isn't happening at all, it's just a process that isn't as fast as some folks not familiar with Russian practices might expect.

Is that correct?
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Offline Star One

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #16 on: 05/31/2016 04:26 pm »
Be excellent to each other, participants should try to carefully read and understand what the other person is saying, and explain why they think someone's off the mark, rather than accusing each other of not listening.

What I hear is someone saying the low launch rate means the development process might be drawn out, and the cost won't come down as much as might be desired, while someone else is saying that the low launch rate doesn't mean that development isn't happening at all, it's just a process that isn't as fast as some folks not familiar with Russian practices might expect.

Is that correct?

The latter that things are happening at their own pace is the way I read it, after all it is a major change, and overtly negative connotations shouldn't be read into this at this point in time.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #17 on: 05/31/2016 05:15 pm »
You are not addressing my point: Angara has almost no orders now, and will have rather low chances of getting new orders in 2020+. Of course, Russian govt payloads will fly on Russian LVs. But hardly anything else. Under these conditions, Angara will stay more expensive than today's Proton.
I will explain the whole situation. It is in development, thus, it's not the LV of choice for the Russian government nor for the commercial company of Khrnuchev (ILS). They might be trying to sell one flight in 2019 or 2020. But commercial flights are usually bought at L-24 months or so. So we won't start seeing commercial orders until 2018 o later. For the same reason, all operative Russian programs (civil comms, military, GLONASS, even ISS) use Proton since Angara is still "in development".
What's more, Angara-5 really needs the Voistochny launch pad to compete. And that won't be available until 2020, at the earliest.
When they have the Eastern pad and start offering at the commercial market, and the Russian government uses it for heavy launches, then it will ramp up production. Not until then. And just the government work would mean five to six launches per year for the heavy version. The light version will probably see a couple extra of launches. But that's all post 2020 and it is too far in the future to have a realistic manifest.
Russian officials have been very clear in the fact that currently an Angara-5 costs three times more than a Proton. If they start launching from Voistochny, use the more efficient factory at Omsk and start moving all launches to it, it will be, in fact cheaper than Proton. But that won't happen until 2020 at the earliest.
« Last Edit: 05/31/2016 05:18 pm by baldusi »

Offline Nicolas PILLET

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #18 on: 05/31/2016 05:43 pm »
it's not the LV of choice for the Russian government nor for the commercial company of Khrnuchev (ILS).

As for now, ILS has rights to sell only Angara-1.2 launch vehicles, not Angara-A5.
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Offline gospacex

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #19 on: 05/31/2016 09:53 pm »
When they have the Eastern pad and start offering at the commercial market, and the Russian government uses it for heavy launches, then it will ramp up production. Not until then. And just the government work would mean five to six launches per year for the heavy version. The light version will probably see a couple extra of launches. But that's all post 2020 and it is too far in the future to have a realistic manifest.
Russian officials have been very clear in the fact that currently an Angara-5 costs three times more than a Proton. If they start launching from Voistochny, use the more efficient factory at Omsk and start moving all launches to it, it will be, in fact cheaper than Proton.

Last couple of years, Proton was launching 8-12 times per year.

Let's assume you are right about eventual launch rate of Angara. Five to six launches per year for the heavy (five boosters per launch). A couple extra of launches for light version. IOW: it will have hard time even reaching Proton todays' launch rate, while using more tankage and more expensive engines.

How it can possibly become cheaper than Proton, not now, not in 2020, but ever?
« Last Edit: 05/31/2016 09:53 pm by gospacex »

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #20 on: 05/31/2016 10:31 pm »
If you launch an Atlas 5 or an Ariane 5 without any other in assembly at the moment of the launch, you will also wait for two years the following liftoff !

Assembly of a rocket doesn't take that long, and if they do have an automated assembly line it especially won't take that long.  Months at the most.

My background is in manufacturing operations, so my guess would be that either A) they haven't approved production of the current design because the design has not been validated, or B) for some reason they have not approved procurement of the long-lead material.

I think what you were alluding to was that the long-lead material had not been ordered, but normally for a product that is assumed to have some level of demand the initial procurement would have been for more than just one unit.  Especially for long-lead items like engines and electronics, and material where you can get some sort of volume discount.

Based on all of that, I'm thinking they are having money flow issues, either from the government or from a lack of customer orders.  But that is just a guess.

Quote
And the fact that there was no Angara in assembly at the moment of the 2014's launch is not the consequence of some economical problems. It is a strategy which has been decided long before the first launch.

It's questionable because it's unusual.  They are an already existing business bringing out a new product that their customers should be clamoring for, and yet it seems like their schedule to become operational is rather slow.

Maybe it isn't slow, and we're just used to the fast pace of what SpaceX is doing.  But if they want to compete with SpaceX, they are going to have to pick up the pace a little...
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Offline Nicolas PILLET

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #21 on: 06/01/2016 04:47 am »
But if they want to compete with SpaceX, they are going to have to pick up the pace a little...

They absolutely don't want to compete with SpaceX. hey want to have a launcher :
- that doesn't use toxic propellant
- that can launch from Plesetsk and Vostochnyi
- that can allow complete independance for Russia for launching State payloads.
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Offline asmi

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #22 on: 06/01/2016 02:26 pm »
Maybe it isn't slow, and we're just used to the fast pace of what SpaceX is doing.  But if they want to compete with SpaceX, they are going to have to pick up the pace a little...
So far the only thing that is "fast" about SpaceX is their PR. For example FH was supposed to fly in 2013...
And this is why I hate space news from the future (this isn't specifically related to SpaceX, everybody does that to some extent). I will believe it when I see it.

Offline gospacex

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #23 on: 06/01/2016 02:33 pm »
Maybe it isn't slow, and we're just used to the fast pace of what SpaceX is doing.  But if they want to compete with SpaceX, they are going to have to pick up the pace a little...
So far the only thing that is "fast" about SpaceX is their PR. For example FH was supposed to fly in 2013...

A comparison is in order here. Angara project was approved by Russian govt in 1997, that is nearly 20 years ago, and about twice as long as entire history of SpaceX.

Offline asmi

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #24 on: 06/01/2016 02:45 pm »
A comparison is in order here. Angara project was approved by Russian govt in 1997, that is nearly 20 years ago, and about twice as long as entire history of SpaceX.
Already discussed many times. It was different Angara at the time. Still, several years late (and counting) is not "fast" in my book.

Offline Nicolas PILLET

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #25 on: 06/01/2016 06:38 pm »
A comparison is in order here. Angara project was approved by Russian govt in 1997, that is nearly 20 years ago, and about twice as long as entire history of SpaceX.

In 1997, many Russians didn't have enough money to give food to their children. Funding for Angara has begun many years later. Since it has been funded, the development has been quite quick.
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Offline ncb1397

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #26 on: 06/01/2016 06:43 pm »
Maybe it isn't slow, and we're just used to the fast pace of what SpaceX is doing.  But if they want to compete with SpaceX, they are going to have to pick up the pace a little...
So far the only thing that is "fast" about SpaceX is their PR. For example FH was supposed to fly in 2013...

A comparison is in order here. Angara project was approved by Russian govt in 1997, that is nearly 20 years ago, and about twice as long as entire history of SpaceX.

SpaceX has been around since 2002 - 14 years
1997 was 19 years ago. 19/14 is 1.35x, not "twice as long".

Offline gospacex

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #27 on: 06/01/2016 08:47 pm »
Maybe it isn't slow, and we're just used to the fast pace of what SpaceX is doing.  But if they want to compete with SpaceX, they are going to have to pick up the pace a little...
So far the only thing that is "fast" about SpaceX is their PR. For example FH was supposed to fly in 2013...

A comparison is in order here. Angara project was approved by Russian govt in 1997, that is nearly 20 years ago, and about twice as long as entire history of SpaceX.

SpaceX has been around since 2002 - 14 years
1997 was 19 years ago. 19/14 is 1.35x, not "twice as long".

I accept your correction.

It's is still illogical to complain that SpaceX is so "slowly" developed two new LVs, one new capsule, and three new engine families, but not have similar feelings towards Angara which took *longer* to develop one (modular) rocket and one new derivative of venerable RD-170.
« Last Edit: 06/01/2016 08:48 pm by gospacex »

Offline Star One

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #28 on: 06/01/2016 10:26 pm »
Maybe it isn't slow, and we're just used to the fast pace of what SpaceX is doing.  But if they want to compete with SpaceX, they are going to have to pick up the pace a little...
So far the only thing that is "fast" about SpaceX is their PR. For example FH was supposed to fly in 2013...

A comparison is in order here. Angara project was approved by Russian govt in 1997, that is nearly 20 years ago, and about twice as long as entire history of SpaceX.

SpaceX has been around since 2002 - 14 years
1997 was 19 years ago. 19/14 is 1.35x, not "twice as long".

I accept your correction.

It's is still illogical to complain that SpaceX is so "slowly" developed two new LVs, one new capsule, and three new engine families, but not have similar feelings towards Angara which took *longer* to develop one (modular) rocket and one new derivative of venerable RD-170.
No because the situations are utterly different.

Offline gospacex

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #29 on: 06/02/2016 12:41 pm »
Indeed, the situations are utterly different.

Unlike SpaceX, Angara developers did not have to earn one rusty ruble of R&D money, they had it all handed to them by Russian govt.

Offline Star One

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #30 on: 06/02/2016 01:06 pm »
Indeed, the situations are utterly different.

Unlike SpaceX, Angara developers did not have to earn one rusty ruble of R&D money, they had it all handed to them by Russian govt.

Just what exactly is your issue with Angara, surely on here we should have similar enthusiasm for all launcher systems, yet you take a relentlessly negative stance for some reason. One which I feel has no basis in logic, especially as the circumstances around Angara have been explained more than once.

Offline gospacex

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #31 on: 06/02/2016 01:57 pm »
Indeed, the situations are utterly different.

Unlike SpaceX, Angara developers did not have to earn one rusty ruble of R&D money, they had it all handed to them by Russian govt.

Just what exactly is your issue with Angara, surely on here we should have similar enthusiasm for all launcher systems.

I have enthusiasm for all launch systems which make trips to space cheaper.
Why I should be positive towards organizations which would very much like to prevent that from happening, I don't understand. Khrunichev is one of them.

Offline Star One

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #32 on: 06/02/2016 02:01 pm »
Indeed, the situations are utterly different.

Unlike SpaceX, Angara developers did not have to earn one rusty ruble of R&D money, they had it all handed to them by Russian govt.

Just what exactly is your issue with Angara, surely on here we should have similar enthusiasm for all launcher systems.

I have enthusiasm for all launch systems which make trips to space cheaper.
Why I should be positive towards organizations which would very much like to prevent that from happening, I don't understand. Khrunichev is one of them.

Who is preventing anything.

Offline Nicolas PILLET

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #33 on: 06/02/2016 03:55 pm »
Indeed, the situations are utterly different.

Unlike SpaceX, Angara developers did not have to earn one rusty ruble of R&D money, they had it all handed to them by Russian govt.

This is not correct. Russian government did not give to Khrunichev the money they had promised. Khrunichev had to sell Proton via ILS to fund itself the development of Angara.
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Offline tyrred

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #34 on: 06/08/2016 08:24 am »
Proton is a venerable rocket family, not without it's faults and considerable teething problems.  First designed to deliver Tsar-Bomba-yield nuclear payloads. 

Suggest that highly toxic propellants should be reserved for death weapons.  Which IMO should be used only as last resort.

If Angara can be fielded as a cleaner, modern, modular launch system to replace Proton, I suggest that would be significant improvement over an old workhorse that should be put out to pasture.

The economics are an issue, for certain.  It seems to me that if there is enough will, talent, and cooperation people tend to get things done in ways that are surprising. 

My 2 cents.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #35 on: 06/08/2016 05:48 pm »
You are not addressing my point: Angara has almost no orders now, and will have rather low chances of getting new orders in 2020+. Of course, Russian govt payloads will fly on Russian LVs. But hardly anything else. Under these conditions, Angara will stay more expensive than today's Proton.
Only Angara-1.2 variant is presently the only variant available for commercial orders. In order to accelerate its launch rate the ICBM conversional launcher fleet must be retired because their prices are to low compared to Angara, Which by the way is still in the flight test and certification phase. Until Vostochny pad(s) for Angara are built and come online there will only be Medium payload class launches to GTO and SSTO via Plesetsk.  The government plan once Vostochny pads are online is to first phase out government Proton missions and then kick the commercial payloads over to Angara-A5 by setting in thew second phase a finite amount of Proton-Ms available for order and by setting retirement dates for all of Khrunichev Space Centres' hypergolic launchers.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #36 on: 06/08/2016 09:43 pm »
A lot of belly-aching here! I'm just glad they're finally replacing Proton, which is a crazy environmental disaster every launch. Angara is a nice step, the first big basically clean-sheet rocket since the end of the Cold War. I wish the Russians luck.
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Offline faramund

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #37 on: 06/10/2016 10:48 am »
A lot of belly-aching here! I'm just glad they're finally replacing Proton, which is a crazy environmental disaster every launch. Angara is a nice step, the first big basically clean-sheet rocket since the end of the Cold War. I wish the Russians luck.
But still, if Proton is cheaper, its easier to understand why the Russians are taking time to change over. I find it somewhat bizarre, as usually when a new launcher comes out, while yes it might have environmental benefits, but it almost always promises to be cheaper than its predecessor.

If Angara isn't cheaper, something wrong seems to have happened during the design process.

Offline gospacex

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #38 on: 06/10/2016 05:13 pm »
You are not addressing my point: Angara has almost no orders now, and will have rather low chances of getting new orders in 2020+. Of course, Russian govt payloads will fly on Russian LVs. But hardly anything else. Under these conditions, Angara will stay more expensive than today's Proton.
Only Angara-1.2 variant is presently the only variant available for commercial orders. In order to accelerate its launch rate the ICBM conversional launcher fleet must be retired because their prices are to low compared to Angara, Which by the way is still in the flight test and certification phase. Until Vostochny pad(s) for Angara are built and come online there will only be Medium payload class launches to GTO and SSTO via Plesetsk.  The government plan once Vostochny pads are online is to first phase out government Proton missions and then kick the commercial payloads over to Angara-A5 by setting in thew second phase a finite amount of Proton-Ms available for order and by setting retirement dates for all of Khrunichev Space Centres' hypergolic launchers.

What commercial payloads?

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #39 on: 06/10/2016 08:41 pm »
You are not addressing my point: Angara has almost no orders now, and will have rather low chances of getting new orders in 2020+. Of course, Russian govt payloads will fly on Russian LVs. But hardly anything else. Under these conditions, Angara will stay more expensive than today's Proton.
Only Angara-1.2 variant is presently the only variant available for commercial orders. In order to accelerate its launch rate the ICBM conversional launcher fleet must be retired because their prices are to low compared to Angara, Which by the way is still in the flight test and certification phase. Until Vostochny pad(s) for Angara are built and come online there will only be Medium payload class launches to GTO and SSTO via Plesetsk.  The government plan once Vostochny pads are online is to first phase out government Proton missions and then kick the commercial payloads over to Angara-A5 by setting in thew second phase a finite amount of Proton-Ms available for order and by setting retirement dates for all of Khrunichev Space Centres' hypergolic launchers.

What commercial payloads?
Angara-A1.2 will pick up payloads from Dnepr, Rockot. Only already manifested payloads on Dnepr and Rockot will not fly on Angara-A1.2. Several payloads which have applied to launch those conversional launchers but have not been assigned a launcher is being directed toward Angara-A1.2

Offline fregate

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #40 on: 06/12/2016 01:45 pm »
TASS News releases from 13th of May and 10th of June attached:
"Selene, the Moon. Selenginsk, an old town in Siberia: moon-rocket  town" Vladimir Nabokov

Offline Stan Black

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #41 on: 06/26/2016 08:20 am »
In Russian, another interview with person involved in production of second Angara-A5 rocket:-
Quote
СБОРКИ И БЛОКИ ДАЮТ НАМ УРОКИ
Основные объемы производства «Полета» стремительно перемещаются в сторону «Ангары». У цеха окончательной сборки за номером 66 работы прибавляется. Об этом – разговор корреспондента «ЗЖ» с начальником цеха 66 П.А. Литвиненко.
http://www.omskprofpol.su/images/2016/5-Zavodskaya-zhizn_9-10_may_2016.pdf

Offline gospacex

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #42 on: 06/26/2016 03:09 pm »
What commercial payloads?
Angara-A1.2 will pick up payloads from Dnepr, Rockot. Only already manifested payloads on Dnepr and Rockot will not fly on Angara-A1.2. Several payloads which have applied to launch those conversional launchers but have not been assigned a launcher is being directed toward Angara-A1.2

Can you give names of those payloads? How much will it cost to the customer, compared to Dnepr and Rockot?

Offline Nicolas PILLET

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #43 on: 06/26/2016 04:36 pm »
Can you give names of those payloads?

Gonets and Rodnik communications satellites.
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Offline Skyrocket

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #44 on: 06/26/2016 10:57 pm »
Can you give names of those payloads?

Gonets and Rodnik communications satellites.

and Geo-IK-2 (Musson-2)

Offline gospacex

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #45 on: 06/27/2016 03:02 pm »
Can you give names of those payloads?

Gonets and Rodnik communications satellites.

Rodnik (Strela-3) is not a commercial payload. It's a military comsat.

Geo-IK-2 is also ordered by Russian military, it's a geodesy satellite. "On 24 February 2011, Deputy Defence Minister Vladimir Popovkin announced that the satellite would be unable to fulfill its mission and thus *would not be used by Russian defence forces*"  - emphasis mine. Definitely not a commercial device.

Only Gonets is a civilian payload (comsats operated by "Gonets SatCom").

This may sound like nitpicking, but it's important.
My point is that Angara can't pick up any meaningful number of *commercial* payloads, ones where customers are free to choose their LV.
Clearly, military payloads are not free to choose their LV. They usually will fly on a domestic LV, no matter how costly it is. I have no doubt Angara will be launching Russian govt satellites.
« Last Edit: 06/27/2016 03:03 pm by gospacex »

Offline Nicolas PILLET

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #46 on: 06/27/2016 05:33 pm »
You're right. Sorry, I had not seen the word "commercial" in your message.

But you have to understand that Angara is absolutely not built to launch commercial payloads. It is built to launch federal (military and civilian) payloads. If they can earn some money by launching some commercial sats, they will do that, but it is not the "raison d'etre" of Angara.
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Offline Svetoslav

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #47 on: 10/06/2017 07:13 pm »
At long last, Angara news.

Quick google translate:

The components of the second Angara-A5 heavy-duty launch vehicle manufactured in the Omsk branch of the Khrunichev Polet Polytechnic Production Association continue to arrive in Moscow for final assembly and testing. Today, October 6, 2017, from Omsk to Moscow went to a specialized train, which will deliver to the Khrunichev Center side block (BB-3) first stage. Together with him, a similar bench product was sent to Moscow, which will undergo dynamic tests. The purpose of the tests is to protect the factory technologies and confirm the readiness of production for serial production.
 
"Angara-A5" is a three-stage carrier rocket of the heavy class of the family of carrier rockets of the modular type "Angara" (light, medium and heavy classes) created on the basis of URM-1 and URM-2 universal missile modules. In the propulsion systems URMov used environmentally friendly components of fuel - oxygen and kerosene. Various versions of Angara launch vehicles are implemented in practice using different numbers of URM-1 universal missile modules (for the first and second stages) and URM-2 (for the upper stages).
 
The first stage of the Angara-A5 LV is an assembly of four side blocks (UBM) URM-1. At the second stage - the central unit - one URM-1 is used, and on the third stage - one URM-2. The final assembly of the second flight rocket "Anagara-A5" will be performed at the missile and space plant of the Khrunichev Center.
 
The launch of the Angara-A5 launch vehicle to the Plesetsk space center is planned for early 2018.

https://www.roscosmos.ru/24191/

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #48 on: 10/07/2017 05:53 pm »
" ...the second Angara-5 rocket would then be sent to Plesetsk in February or March 2018. In the meantime, the factory in Omsk was working on the components of the third and fourth Angara rockets, however their final assembly was apparently been held off until the newly established production process could be certified as sound."
"However, only on Oct. 6, 2017, Roskosmos State Corporation suddenly announced that the components of the second Angara-5 rocket "had been continuing to arrive" at GKNPTs Khrunichev in Moscow."

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/angara5-flight2.html#2017
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Offline Svetoslav

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #49 on: 11/17/2017 01:08 pm »
Today Khrunichev announced a successful static firing test of the agregate module of Angara 1.2 -  the lightweight version of the rocket.


http://www.khrunichev.ru/main.php?id=1&nid=3540

Online Alter Sachse

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #50 on: 11/17/2017 05:08 pm »
Today Khrunichev announced a successful static firing test of the agregate module of Angara 1.2 -  the lightweight version of the rocket.


http://www.khrunichev.ru/main.php?id=1&nid=3540
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/angara1.html#am
https://www.roscosmos.ru/24356/
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Offline brickmack

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #51 on: 11/19/2017 11:31 pm »
What exactly is the point of this stage? I thought the whole point of Angara was to reduce redundant production lines, but they've just gone and added yet another stage which seems to be, from what little I can find of it, inferior in performance to even Volga, nevermind Briz-KM (which already is available for Angara 1.2 anyway), with similar longevity and restart capability. Does there really exist sufficient demand for launches in this extremely narrow performance bracket to justify development of a whole new upper stage, and all that entails, just to save a tiny bit on the per-unit costs?

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #52 on: 11/19/2017 11:57 pm »
What exactly is the point of this stage? I thought the whole point of Angara was to reduce redundant production lines, but they've just gone and added yet another stage which seems to be, from what little I can find of it, inferior in performance to even Volga, nevermind Briz-KM (which already is available for Angara 1.2 anyway), with similar longevity and restart capability. Does there really exist sufficient demand for launches in this extremely narrow performance bracket to justify development of a whole new upper stage, and all that entails, just to save a tiny bit on the per-unit costs?
Briz-KM is tied up with geopolitical woes between Ukraine and Russia as is just about everything in Russia's launcher fleet. Briz-KM avionics and other components are manufactured in Ukraine thus parts are only made available for foreign civil launches. Briz-M does not have this problem as it was upgraded and uses only Russian components. AM Post Boost stage is kind of an interim plan that became a longer term plan until a fully Russian Briz-KM replacement is realized using systems from Briz-M. Only the AM stage is approved at this point.

Offline brickmack

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #53 on: 11/20/2017 12:02 am »
How is it easier to design a completely new stage, than to change out a few problematic components on an existing stage, especially after a very close relative of said stage has already had the same parts replaced?

Online Alter Sachse

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #54 on: 11/21/2017 07:34 am »
Today Khrunichev announced a successful static firing test of the agregate module of Angara 1.2 -  the lightweight version of the rocket.


http://www.khrunichev.ru/main.php?id=1&nid=3540
http://www.ilslaunch.com/newsroom/news-releases/khrunichev-space-center-successful-hot-fire-test-angara-12-service-module-con

Khrunichev Space Center: Successful Hot-fire Test of Angara 1.2 Service Module Conducted

"The propulsion system of the light-weight Angara 1.2 Launch Vehicle Service Module, manufactured by the Khrunichev Space Center (part of ROSCOSMOS State Corporation), completed successful hot-fire testing at the Federal State Enterprise "Rocket & Space Industry Research & Test Center" (RSI RTC) test facility (Peresvet, Moscow Region).

The hot-fire tests are the most important and final stage of ground based propulsion system tests prior to flight testing.

During the tests, specialists from the Salyut Design Bureau (a subdivision of Khrunichev Space Center) performed comprehensive checks of the propulsion system components on a test stand. RSI RTC personnel assured safe testing conditions and processed the test results expeditiously.

The positive results of the tests verified the propulsion system's operational readiness as well as the validity of the chosen design and procedural solutions. Based on the propulsion system tests performed on the test stand, the propulsion system has been approved for development and flight testing as part of the flight-ready Service Module.

The detachable Service Module is part of the 2nd Stage of the two-stage Angara 1.2 Launch Vehicle and is designed to inject the SC into its target orbit. The Service Module includes four 40 kgf 11D458 thrusters and fourteen 1.3 kgf 17D58E thrusters. "
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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #55 on: 11/27/2017 01:46 pm »
"Angara rockets to be launched from Vostochny spaceport starting from 2021"

http://tass.com/science/977645
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Offline Arch Admiral

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #56 on: 12/08/2017 03:21 am »
I'll point out two other possible problems with the Angara program:

-- shifting production of a very complex product to a new plant several time zones away usually involves sending some key personnel from the old site to the new site on a permanent or semi-permanent basis. But the Muscovites working at Khrunichev's main plant will be very reluctant to move to Siberia. They look down their noses at St. Petersburg, but Omsk might as well be on Mars to them.  Everyplace in Russia outside Moscow is undergoing a rapid economic and social decline. The other day I read a story from Omsk that the city government had stopped repairing the streets, and citizens were filling potholes with potatoes,

-- Khrunichev has recently been tasked with developing and building an all-Russian version of the Ukranian R-36M2 ICBM, to be called "Sarmat". The 46 R-36 missiles still in service carry about 1/3 of Russia's strategic warheads but are rapidly decaying since product support was withdrawn. Of course nobody in their right mind would order a hypergolic-fuel ICBM in the 21st century, but Putin is driven by nostalgia for everything Soviet and wants to demonstrate that he can get along just fine without Ukraine. The Soyuz-5 program (Russian version of Zenit comes from the same mindset. Sarmat undoubtedly enjoys a higher priority than Angara.

Offline Vahe231991

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #57 on: 02/13/2022 07:43 pm »
I'll point out two other possible problems with the Angara program:

-- shifting production of a very complex product to a new plant several time zones away usually involves sending some key personnel from the old site to the new site on a permanent or semi-permanent basis. But the Muscovites working at Khrunichev's main plant will be very reluctant to move to Siberia. They look down their noses at St. Petersburg, but Omsk might as well be on Mars to them.  Everyplace in Russia outside Moscow is undergoing a rapid economic and social decline. The other day I read a story from Omsk that the city government had stopped repairing the streets, and citizens were filling potholes with potatoes,

-- Khrunichev has recently been tasked with developing and building an all-Russian version of the Ukranian R-36M2 ICBM, to be called "Sarmat". The 46 R-36 missiles still in service carry about 1/3 of Russia's strategic warheads but are rapidly decaying since product support was withdrawn. Of course nobody in their right mind would order a hypergolic-fuel ICBM in the 21st century, but Putin is driven by nostalgia for everything Soviet and wants to demonstrate that he can get along just fine without Ukraine. The Soyuz-5 program (Russian version of Zenit comes from the same mindset. Sarmat undoubtedly enjoys a higher priority than Angara.
The launch pad for the Angara was completed in June 2020, and it is important to note that the Khrunichev company that is tasked with building the Angara was responsible for development of the very Proton rocket that is to be replaced by variants of the Angara and is headquartered in Moscow, and that the Plesetsk Cosmodrome that is one of the launch sites for the Angara rocket was built two years after the Baikonur Cosmodrome was completed.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Why doesn't Angara ever launch?
« Reply #58 on: 02/13/2022 09:05 pm »
Hypergolic has advantages over Solid Rocket motors which suffer from propellant sag, debonding and other issues. Hypergolic has its own disadvantages as well which are well known. The R-36M-2's with a Briz family upper stage and as is with domestication is to resume orbital launches through Glavkosmos and the MoD. Such entries on the schedules of NSF and NK forums are present. Rockot-M is the priority at the moment. The Chinese and other also still build hypergolic missile systems.
« Last Edit: 02/13/2022 09:07 pm by russianhalo117 »

 

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