Author Topic: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 13)  (Read 211790 times)

Online Chris Bergin

Thread 13 for general discussion on SpaceX's Falcon and Dragon vehicles.

Previous threads (now over 3.5 million views for these 12 SpaceX threads alone):

Thread 1:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=19228.0

Thread 2:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=22769.0

Thread 3:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=24179.0

Thread 4:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=25597.0

Thread 5:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=28006.0

Thread 6:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29476.0

Thread 7:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=30385.0

Thread 8:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31402.0

Thread 9:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32719.0

Thread 10:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33598.0

Thread 11:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35364.0

Thread 12:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36815.0


SpaceX news articles on this site:
Old: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21862.0 (links)

Then recent news articles, not linked above, as we moved to a tag group system:
All recent: http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/tag/spacex/


L2 SpaceX - Dedicated all-vehicle (Falcon to BFR/MCT) section:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=60.0


NOTE: Posts that are uncivil (which is very rare for this forum), off topic (not so rare) or just pointless will be deleted without notice.

And no, this is not a ULA vs SpaceX thread. This is about general posts about Falcon and Dragon.

Online docmordrid

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 13)
« Reply #1 on: 01/01/2016 12:09 AM »
Copied from the ORBCOMM mission updates

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/682717803166695425

Falcon 9 back in the hangar at Cape Canaveral. No damage found, ready to fire again. https://t.co/7w6IfJGtXM

Images: as posted, and gamma boosted for the shadows

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 13)
« Reply #2 on: 01/01/2016 12:18 AM »
Interesting. Examine the defects in the paint. Are those wear patterns around the upper grid fin?

Online ugordan

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 13)
« Reply #3 on: 01/01/2016 12:25 AM »
I don't know what to make of the interstage look. There's blistering in the paint, but it doesn't look like heat damage to me - I'd expect the decals to be fried if it was. Could it trapped air expanding in vacuum?
The decals appear weirdly sandblasted, but the effect is very localized. I can see why from a distance it looked like the "l" in Falcon got torn off.

The effect on the fins kinda looks like a fairly thick coating was coming off. Ablative paint?

Online oiorionsbelt

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 13)
« Reply #4 on: 01/01/2016 12:35 AM »
The things they must know now that they didn't know before.


Happy New Year!

Online oiorionsbelt

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 13)
« Reply #5 on: 01/01/2016 12:42 AM »
This looks as though something was removed, any ideas as to what?

Offline cscott

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 13)
« Reply #6 on: 01/01/2016 12:57 AM »
My bet is that the "decals" aren't painted the same way as the rest of the tank.  Not the same care to avoid air bubbles, maybe a different paint, maybe not baked on.  So the decals wear off, but the base paint is solid.  In fact the base paint is bright white and clean under where the decal bubbled off.
« Last Edit: 01/01/2016 12:59 AM by cscott »

Offline realtime

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 13)
« Reply #7 on: 01/01/2016 01:03 AM »
The top defect on the interstage looks like paint bubbling off of plain old rust.  Surely that can't be right.  Maybe some flexing?  Aero forces?

The overall impression is of a vehicle that has endured hard use in a brutal flight regime.  We saw what it did to Shuttle and the SRBs but this is the first time anyone has had the opportunity to examine a used, intact first stage booster.


Online 411rocket

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 13)
« Reply #8 on: 01/01/2016 01:21 AM »
Interesting. Examine the defects in the paint. Are those wear patterns around the upper grid fin?

Possibly the cleaning process, had increased the defects seen? Pressure washer & pole mounted scrub brushes, in addition to whatever soap/cleaner used.

Online ugordan

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 13)
« Reply #9 on: 01/01/2016 01:28 AM »
Possibly the cleaning process, had increased the defects seen? Pressure washer & pole mounted scrub brushes, in addition to whatever soap/cleaner used.

I don't see any evidence of cleaning.

Extra high res image via reddit:

The fins definitely seem to have been sprayed with some material. Maybe it's SPAM (remember that?) In fact, the linear-ish patterns to the left of the lower fin suggest it's the particles blown off the fins that did the sandblasting. The L/D set up by the fins for corridor control could explain why the streaks don't run parallel to the stage length.
« Last Edit: 01/01/2016 01:40 AM by ugordan »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 13)
« Reply #10 on: 01/01/2016 02:20 AM »
Looks like a layer of SPAM over the metal but under the paint.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline darkenfast

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 13)
« Reply #11 on: 01/01/2016 03:27 AM »
Notice the thickness of the broken-off coating to the right of the "o" and "n" of "Falcon".  More than one layer there, and it will no doubt be a part of the re-flight process to have a system for the diagnosis and repair of such things (if they haven't already).  A big factor will be, of course, how much that coating is contributing to the health and survival of the stage.

Offline intrepidpursuit

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 13)
« Reply #12 on: 01/01/2016 06:16 AM »
Possibly the cleaning process, had increased the defects seen? Pressure washer & pole mounted scrub brushes, in addition to whatever soap/cleaner used.

I don't see any evidence of cleaning.

Extra high res image via reddit:

The fins definitely seem to have been sprayed with some material. Maybe it's SPAM (remember that?) In fact, the linear-ish patterns to the left of the lower fin suggest it's the particles blown off the fins that did the sandblasting. The L/D set up by the fins for corridor control could explain why the streaks don't run parallel to the stage length.

Thanks for the big image! We do need to remember that this is the composite interstage and it gets toasted with a direct hit from the S2 engine. I've wondered previously if the interstages would be reused at all because of this. This one looks like it is in great shape all things considered!

Offline Darkseraph

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 13)
« Reply #13 on: 01/01/2016 06:26 AM »
I think they picked the part of the rocket least crudded up with re-entry scorch marks for this lovely instagram!

The fact they said there was no damage was a bit astonishing. Could they have done such a thorough analysis of all the structures and internal parts in just under two weeks?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." R.P.Feynman

Offline intrepidpursuit

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 13)
« Reply #14 on: 01/01/2016 06:35 AM »
I think they picked the part of the rocket least crudded up with re-entry scorch marks for this lovely instagram!

The fact they said there was no damage was a bit astonishing. Could they have done such a thorough analysis of all the structures and internal parts in just under two weeks?

I beg to differ. They picked the only part of the rocket that said "Falcon". The middle of the rocket where the ice from the oxygen protected the stage was the least crudded up. The interstage and the base should be the worst since they take direct hits from engines.

Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 13)
« Reply #15 on: 01/01/2016 08:50 AM »
....

The fact they said there was no damage was a bit astonishing. Could they have done such a thorough analysis of all the structures and internal parts in just under two weeks?

Well, they did say it is OK to be "fired" again. Not "launched". I can see them checking the parts of the engines subject to wear in two weeks since they are so familiar with them and have fired and tested engines many times.
However readiness for flight is quite different and not mentioned yet. Full structural testing and/or disassembly should be needed which we all doubt can be done in such short time.

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 13)
« Reply #16 on: 01/01/2016 05:53 PM »
....

The fact they said there was no damage was a bit astonishing. Could they have done such a thorough analysis of all the structures and internal parts in just under two weeks?

Well, they did say it is OK to be "fired" again. Not "launched". I can see them checking the parts of the engines subject to wear in two weeks since they are so familiar with them and have fired and tested engines many times.
However readiness for flight is quite different and not mentioned yet. Full structural testing and/or disassembly should be needed which we all doubt can be done in such short time.

The whole and entire point of the SpaceX Falcon architecture is to be able to launch these rockets over and over again without requiring a full teardown of the stage and its engines.  "Gas and go" is the goal for this architecture.

It's long been recognized that the need to do such a teardown of the RS-25's after each Shuttle flight guaranteed that STS would never be a low-cost reusable system.  Musk took that as a Lesson Learned.  This system is not designed to require the kind of disassembly you suggest.
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Online matthewkantar

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 13)
« Reply #17 on: 01/01/2016 06:09 PM »
They are definitely going to need more robust coatings for short turnarounds.

Matthew

Offline billh

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 13)
« Reply #18 on: 01/01/2016 06:19 PM »
The great thing is, since they will be recovering many boosters they have the opportunity to experiment with new coatings and application methods to perfect this.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 13)
« Reply #19 on: 01/01/2016 11:37 PM »
They are definitely going to need more robust coatings for short turnarounds.

Matthew
Why? Do you have any solid evidence that the coating as-is right now make flight impossible for that stage?
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

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