Author Topic: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics  (Read 37421 times)

Offline Star One

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« on: 05/29/2015 09:27 AM »
I did have a thread on here that was about using a hypersonic launcher but that was too specific & as there seems to be quite a fair bit of development going on in this area I thought it might be an idea to start a more general thread about it. This thread is for developments that are not related to Skylon. As a general point in relation to this forum I've added the thread as hypersonic research can include straddling the line between general aviation & space flight the hypersonic vehicles for example are often launched in the same way.

Anyway I start the thread with this article.

Quote
Waltham missile maker Raytheon Co. has just taken on a tall order from the Department of Defense: Create a cruise missile that could travel more than five times the speed of sound.

Raytheon is getting $20 million from the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, or DARPA, the Pentagon branch best known for having sponsored the invention of the Internet. This time, the agency wants a technology that weapons designers have dreamed of since the 1930s — a hypersonic missile that travels so fast there’s virtually no defense against it.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2015/05/26/going-hypersonic-raytheon/Qnrg2YJUdMo2SXiVphoBaO/story.html#

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #1 on: 06/02/2015 06:19 PM »
AF Chief Scientist: Air Force Working on New Hypersonic Air Vehicle.

Presuming they are meaning a drone or aircraft here, not a missile.


Read more: http://defensetech.org/2015/06/01/af-chief-scientist-air-force-working-on-new-hypersonic-air-vehicle/#ixzz3bvjakFd4
Defense.org

Offline vulture4

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #2 on: 06/02/2015 06:26 PM »
the cruise missile application continues to look like the most obvious to me:

"The new air vehicle effort will progress alongside an Air Force hypersonic weapons program. While today’s cruise missiles travel at speeds up to 600 miles per hour, hypersonic weapons will be able to reach speeds of Mach 5 to Mach 10, Air Force officials said. The new air vehicle could be used to transport sensors, equipment or weaponry in the future, depending upon how the technology develops"

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #3 on: 06/02/2015 08:02 PM »
What they could be talking about here is the HSSW.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/products/high-speed-strike-weapon-hssw.html

I still wonder if REL's technology could play a part in something even more ambitious than the HSSW.

Online docmordrid

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #4 on: 06/05/2015 01:13 AM »
What they could be talking about here is the HSSW.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/products/high-speed-strike-weapon-hssw.html

I still wonder if REL's technology could play a part in something even more ambitious than the HSSW.

With the former chief engineer of Rolls Royce taking the Managing Directors job at REL ISTM something's afoot. A sideways move before an acquisition? Or someone western govts can be assured can mature a possible defense windfall?
DM

Online TrevorMonty

Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #5 on: 06/05/2015 03:38 AM »
Unfortunately wars and weapons seem to drive technology development. The plus side is technology from a hyper sonic cruise missile should enable development of civil hyper sonic aircraft.

Offline Star One

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #6 on: 06/19/2015 10:17 PM »
New article on the SR-72 with a very little more detail on its design in the text. Got a feeling the related magazine article might be more extensive.

http://www.popsci.com/inside-americas-next-spyplane
« Last Edit: 06/19/2015 11:02 PM by Star One »

Offline jee_c2

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #7 on: 06/20/2015 12:58 PM »
Here is an article about communicating with hypersonic vehicles in flight:
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Communicating_with_hypersonic_vehicles_in_flight_999.html

(about a method: how to overcome the craft surrounding, EM waves reflecting plasma layer)

Offline Star One

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #8 on: 06/23/2015 08:53 PM »
Pulse detonation engine and continuous detonation wave engines.

Various bits & pieces of info.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2015/06/pulse-detonation-engine-and-continuous.html

Notice the PDE space plane.:D
« Last Edit: 06/23/2015 09:00 PM by Star One »

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #9 on: 08/19/2015 06:41 AM »
German space researchers reboot effort to launch hypersonic space plane

Quote
The Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt (DLR), Germany's aerospace research center, has renewed decade-old plans for a suborbital passenger space plane that could fly from Europe to Australia in under 90 minutes. The rocket-powered SpaceLiner, originally conceptualized as a 50-passenger hypersonic airliner, has now been given new urgency and direction with a roadmap for flights within the next 20 years, SpaceLiner project lead Martin Sippel told Aviation Week at last month's American Institute of Aerodynamics and Astronautics' Space Planes and Hypersonics Conference in Glasgow. Sippel spoke at the conference, presenting on SpaceLiner's technical progress and the program's mission definition—which now includes potentially delivering satellites and other payloads to space.

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/08/german-space-researchers-reboot-effort-to-launch-hypersonic-space-plane/

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #10 on: 08/19/2015 09:23 AM »
Unfortunately wars and weapons seem to drive technology development. The plus side is technology from a hyper sonic cruise missile should enable development of civil hyper sonic aircraft.
True.

Unlikely to be much use in building LVs.
Pulse detonation engine and continuous detonation wave engines.

Various bits & pieces of info.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2015/06/pulse-detonation-engine-and-continuous.html

Notice the PDE space plane.:D
The plane is interesting.

Especially considering how far a SCRamjet crew carrying vehicle remains

German space researchers reboot effort to launch hypersonic space plane

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/08/german-space-researchers-reboot-effort-to-launch-hypersonic-space-plane/
And for only $33Bn.

IIRC that's just over 1/2 cost of the Shuttle programme in 2010+ dollars (the figure I saw was $60Bn).

Here is an article about communicating with hypersonic vehicles in flight:
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Communicating_with_hypersonic_vehicles_in_flight_999.html

(about a method: how to overcome the craft surrounding, EM waves reflecting plasma layer)
Neat idea. It's one of those "Why didn't anyone think of it before" notions.   :(

Reduce losses by impedance matching the plasma.

IIRC the Spring ABM did this to control the missile in flight but needed radar signals in the MW range to punch through the sheath.

The joker in this pack is of course how the plasma sheath thickness compares to the usual range of radio frequencies people use for comms.

It would be quite ironic if needed HF (relying in ionospheric reflection from the plasma there) to get through the plasma sheath around your M5 vehicle.

It would also mean all those GHz satcomms systems would be useless as well.
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Offline clongton

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #11 on: 08/19/2015 02:12 PM »
A hypersonic flight from New York to Los Angeles would take about 30 minutes but if that includes high acceleration at NY and high deceleration at LA then what kind of g's are we talking about? Could civilian passengers withstand that? And what would be the actual cruise time at altitude?
« Last Edit: 08/19/2015 02:14 PM by clongton »
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I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #12 on: 08/19/2015 10:02 PM »
A hypersonic flight from New York to Los Angeles would take about 30 minutes but if that includes high acceleration at NY and high deceleration at LA then what kind of g's are we talking about? Could civilian passengers withstand that? And what would be the actual cruise time at altitude?

Limit acceleration to 0.5 g, hypersonic is Mach 5+ so round off to 2000 m/s then it will take about 6.8 minutes to reach that speed. Total journey will be less than 3/4 hour. Unless the aircraft has to fly subsonic until it reaches the countryside.

Offline Rocket Surgeon

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #13 on: 08/24/2015 11:48 PM »
In the eternal words of one of my uni mates at UQ: "Scramjets Suck"

In all seriousness, Scramjets are an incredibly difficult technology to make work across varying speeds as the entire engine needs to be designed around the bow shockwaves created by any leading edges. The problem is, these shockwaves change angle as you speed up and you lose efficiency and/or risk destroying your vehicle if the shocks don't contact the right points. Hence, you're entire vehicle (or at least the engines) need to morph as they speed up, and at hypersonic speeds, that's a tall order. At the University of Queensland, they were at one point investigating vehicles that would sweat COPPER in order to protect themselves form the hyper sonic heat. But, at a constant hypersonic speed for a short time, they are great (espeacially if they are...'disposable').

This has one very unfortunate implication for anyone working on scramjet research. It will really only have military applications, either as hyper sonic cruise missiles or hypersonic spy planes. As a space launch system where you have to constantly speed up and get out of the atmosphere ASAP, well as I said above, "Scramjets suck". 

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #14 on: 08/29/2015 09:44 AM »
Breakneck Speed: New Russian Jet Engine to Propel Aircraft to 9,000 Kmh

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150823/1026084410/russia-creates-breakthrough-jet-engine.html#ixzz3kCCLCbSi

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #15 on: 09/22/2015 07:33 AM »
China may have conducted test flight of world's fastest aircraft

Quote
China may have recently conducted a successful test of the fastest hypersonic aircraft in the world, reports Hong Kong newspaper Ta Kung Pao.

According to a report released Friday on the official website of state-owned aerospace and defense giant Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), one of its test flight centers has completed an initial test flight on an unspecified high-altitude, super-fast aircraft with a "unique flying style."

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20150921000033&cid=1101

Online Eric Hedman

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #16 on: 03/16/2016 03:10 PM »

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #17 on: 03/16/2016 07:32 PM »
For a non-paywall version. Space flight actually gets a specific mention in this.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/lockheed-pushing-1-billion-mach-6-airbreather-423198/

Offline Star One

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #18 on: 06/28/2016 06:23 AM »
DARPA revives turbine-ramjet concept for hypersonics

A turbine-based combined cycle (TBCC) propulsion system to enable routine hypersonic flight by a vehicle that can take-off and land from a runway is back on the agenda at the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) after a five-year hiatus.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/darpa-revives-turbine-ramjet-concept-for-hypersonics-426735/
« Last Edit: 06/28/2016 06:24 AM by Star One »

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #19 on: 06/29/2016 07:46 AM »
DARPA revives turbine-ramjet concept for hypersonics

A turbine-based combined cycle (TBCC) propulsion system to enable routine hypersonic flight by a vehicle that can take-off and land from a runway is back on the agenda at the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) after a five-year hiatus.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/darpa-revives-turbine-ramjet-concept-for-hypersonics-426735/
It always amuses me when I see the term "integrated" in one of these announcements.

The most "integrated" way to do this is of course to ditch the ramjet part entirely, which is basically what SABRE does.

The problem then becomes how to keep the airframe from melting. An interesting  idea in this regard would be make it out of RCC with a refractory oxidation resistant metal. Atomic Layer Deposition produces multiple thin, highly conformant layers which could be very well matched to the underlying RCC, substantially reducing cracking and raising use temperature over current silica glass coatings.
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Offline su27k

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #20 on: 07/14/2016 04:28 PM »

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #21 on: 11/10/2016 06:37 AM »
Hypersonic Flight Is Coming: Will the US Lead the Way?

Quote
"We're poised on the brink of a new era in air transportation," McBride said. "We do need to go faster. There is a market for supersonic flight over land in an efficient manner that can fly without being an annoyance to everyone on the ground."

NASA also is exploring ways to improve the efficiency and reduce the environmental impacts of subsonic aircraft. Engineers are experimenting with blended wings and other innovations.

Smith admitted that the difficulty that Congress and the president have experienced in passing budgets has caused problems in sustaining research.

"None of that is conducive to good work getting done in an efficient way," Smith said. "And we can do better. We need to get to the point where continuity actually lasts beyond just one administration, much less beyond tomorrow. And we're with you on that."

Bedke said there is no time to waste in moving these programs forward.

"It is inevitable that hypersonic technologies are going to happen," he said. "It is not inevitable that we are going to be the country to do it first. But we can be the country to do it first, but we're going to have to put our minds to it, and we're going to have to stop the history of fits and starts, of throwing money at a big program, achieving a wild success, and then having no follow-up. Or throwing a lot of money at too big a program, taking too giant a bite, failing miserably and then deciding hypersonics isn't going anywhere. Neither of those must be allowed to happen in the coming years."

http://www.space.com/34631-hypersonic-flight-technology-united-states.html

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #22 on: 11/10/2016 08:09 AM »
Hypersonic Flight Is Coming: Will the US Lead the Way?
http://www.space.com/34631-hypersonic-flight-technology-united-states.html
I feel the same way about "historical inevitability" as I do about claims that normal economics does not apply to company X.

It was claimed the triumph of Communism was also "historically inevitable." This turned out to be nonsense.

If your a military with a large budget you can already have hypersonic flight. You just stick your missile on a very big rocket, which is how Sprint ABM did it. If you want more range you make it a liquid fueled rocket.

Routine hypersonic flight, which you can buy a ticket for, needs a lot more than this. It needs a human carrying aircraft capable of long duration operation.  Options that work fine for single use, limited time systems like ablatives are not really viable for repeated, long duration operations.

Not only the options weapons use are unlikely to be viable for civilian use but it seems that due to problems with CFD the only reliable way to do a SCramjet is full scale development. Wind tunnels don't cut it either. So you need a full size, full speed development programme for a SCramjet vehicle in a way you simply don't need for any  other engine system.

IOW if you want to develop a full size SCramjet powered airliner you have to have a full size SCramjet powered airliner to do the development work on to ensure the results are accurate.

Concorde proved there is a market for flights faster than M1.  The joker in the pack is a development programme that commercial companies can afford that will sell enough vehicles for them to make a profit.

I think the days when governments like the French, British and American would do this as a cost plus project for "national pride" are long over. The US experience of both the SST and the NASP should have taught them to stay well away from this.
Russia Is Building a Nuclear Space Bomber
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/07/14/russia-is-building-a-nuclear-space-bomber.html

Russia reveals hypersonic stealth bomber that can launch nuclear attacks from space: Radical plane could begin testing in 2020
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3689325/Russia-reveals-hypersonic-stealth-bomber-launch-nuclear-attacks-space-Radical-plane-begin-testing-2020.html
Lots of odd ideas in these articles.

Assuming a 2 hr to target up to half a planet away that's  a speed of roughly 10 000 Km/Hr, about Mach 8.16

This is not orbital and would not break the Outer Space Treaty, except (technically) when it was outside the atmosphere.

Note also they are talking about a tri propellant (or possibly quadpropellant) engine of Kero/Methane/Air (and LO2?)

TBH this story sounds like Russia playing a version of the old "Nuclear powered bomber" scare of the 1950s, which managed to divert millions of $ into a concept that was basically unworkable.

I've also very doubtful the X37b is not big enough for a nuke, given you can put one in a 155mm or 200mm artillery shell and naval shells are being fitted with control fins and GPS to improve their accuracy.
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Offline Paul Howard

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #23 on: 11/18/2016 08:09 PM »
When is the next hypersonic test planned?

Offline CameronD

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With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline Star One

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #25 on: 12/12/2016 12:02 PM »
Quote
Aerojet Rocketdyne Explores Detonation Engine Options

For over 70 years, jet engines have powered airplanes ever more safely and efficiently. But, despite higher core temperatures and pressures, and the introduction of efficient propulsion concepts like the geared fan, conventional gas turbines may be running out of runway. A fundamental change in the way a gas turbine combusts air and fuel in its core could open a path to a new era of jet engine development, however. Long pursued by propulsion researchers as a potential game-changing ...

http://m.aviationweek.com/technology/aerojet-rocketdyne-explores-detonation-engine-options
« Last Edit: 12/12/2016 12:03 PM by Star One »

Offline Hog

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #26 on: 12/12/2016 05:01 PM »


I've also very doubtful the X37b is not big enough for a nuke, given you can put one in a 155mm or 200mm artillery shell and naval shells are being fitted with control fins and GPS to improve their accuracy.
The MADM(Medium Atomic Demolition Munition) weighed 181kg/400 pounds was a variable-yield from 1 kiloton up to 15 kilotons equivalent of TNT. Based off of the W45 warhead.

The SADM(Special Atomic Demolition Munition)  Based off of the W54 warhead which was used on the Davy Crocket weapons system which  had a warhead that weighed approx. 23kg(51 pounds) with its TNT equivalent between 10 tons and 1 kiloton.

I would have to agree that at least one of these devices could be loaded aboard an X-37B
Pics
1)MADM
2)SADM
3)XW-54 detonation yield at 6 kilotons TBT equivalent
4)Davy Crocket recoilless rifle system (2,100 built)
Paul

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #27 on: 12/12/2016 11:01 PM »
The MADM(Medium Atomic Demolition Munition) weighed 181kg/400 pounds was a variable-yield from 1 kiloton up to 15 kilotons equivalent of TNT. Based off of the W45 warhead.

The SADM(Special Atomic Demolition Munition)  Based off of the W54 warhead which was used on the Davy Crocket weapons system which  had a warhead that weighed approx. 23kg(51 pounds) with its TNT equivalent between 10 tons and 1 kiloton.

I would have to agree that at least one of these devices could be loaded aboard an X-37B
Pics
1)MADM
2)SADM
3)XW-54 detonation yield at 6 kilotons TBT equivalent
4)Davy Crocket recoilless rifle system (2,100 built)
My point exactly. The sort of thing I was thinking about was even smaller.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_artillery

Specifically the W48 at 155mm with a yield of 0.1KT (IE 100 tonnes of TNT).

I'm pretty sure this and the larger W33 (200mm dia, 40KT yield) would be within the carrying mass of the X37b.

That said IRL any such plan faces several problems.
1) AFAIK the last shell was dismantled in about 2004.
2) Shells are not re-entry vehicles. It would need to be wrapped in TPS and given a guidance package. leaving it inside the X37b is a very expensive way to wage (limited, IE 1 shot) nuclear warfare.
3)Developing a suitable TPS/guidance package, along with a dispenser from the X37b's payload bay is likely to be a time consuming and expensive task. Well within the capabilities of the US, but a royal PITA.

My point was the payload limits on the X37b are not a barrier to making it an orbital nuclear delivery vehicle.

It's everything else (treaty obligations, technical complexity, sheer expense) that does that.
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C Apply So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline RDoc

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #28 on: 01/01/2017 11:07 PM »
I think there might also be some real questions about viability of any kind of high altitude bomber-like based attack. Sounds like a sitting duck for missile defenses.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #29 on: 01/03/2017 06:13 AM »
I think there might also be some real questions about viability of any kind of high altitude bomber-like based attack. Sounds like a sitting duck for missile defenses.
There's plenty of reason to question such an idea.

Like weaponizing a Skylon, if you have the skills to do it, you have the skills to cause trouble a lot more easily and cheaply.

It's a plot line from a straight-to-download thriller.   :(
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C Apply So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #30 on: 01/03/2017 07:13 AM »
I think there might also be some real questions about viability of any kind of high altitude bomber-like based attack. Sounds like a sitting duck for missile defenses.
There's plenty of reason to question such an idea.

Like weaponizing a Skylon, if you have the skills to do it, you have the skills to cause trouble a lot more easily and cheaply.

It's a plot line from a straight-to-download thriller.   :(
Best you tell the new president then being as I've seen it quoted multiple times that part of the increased money for defence that he intends to introduce is for hypersonic related projects.

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #31 on: 02/09/2017 08:24 PM »
Leading development of hypersonic engines and spaceplanes

http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/02/leading-development-of-hypersonic.html

Offline CameronD

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #32 on: 02/10/2017 12:46 AM »
Leading development of hypersonic engines and spaceplanes

http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/02/leading-development-of-hypersonic.html

That's just click-bait masquerading as a re-hash of old news and advertising.  It isn't even current, making statements like:
"Hypermach has completed final detail design of the first stage turbine core of a hypersonic engine. Manufacturing of this first stage has begun and is expected to be finished in 2016" -- Hello?  It's 2017 already.
and
"Reaction Engines of the UK is a leader in developing a hypersonic vehicle and hypersonic components" --  If anyone on the planet is a "leader in developing a hypersonic vehicle and hypersonic components" it would have to be the Hyshot team, not them.

No, nothing to see here.. move along! :)
« Last Edit: 02/10/2017 12:48 AM by CameronD »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #33 on: 02/10/2017 06:23 AM »
Leading development of hypersonic engines and spaceplanes

http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/02/leading-development-of-hypersonic.html

That's just click-bait masquerading as a re-hash of old news and advertising.  It isn't even current, making statements like:
"Hypermach has completed final detail design of the first stage turbine core of a hypersonic engine. Manufacturing of this first stage has begun and is expected to be finished in 2016" -- Hello?  It's 2017 already.
and
"Reaction Engines of the UK is a leader in developing a hypersonic vehicle and hypersonic components" --  If anyone on the planet is a "leader in developing a hypersonic vehicle and hypersonic components" it would have to be the Hyshot team, not them.

No, nothing to see here.. move along! :)

Your commentary about REL is pretty disingenuous.

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #34 on: 02/17/2017 06:36 PM »
Classified Report On Hypersonics Says U.S. Lacking Urgency

Quote
Less than four years ago, it seemed that the U.S. Air Force was on the brink of developing the first generation of air-breathing high-speed strike weapons following the success of the experimental scramjet-powered Boeing X-51A. Now a classified report warns that the U.S. may be losing its lead in hypersonics to China and Russia. Although parallel research on hypersonic glide vehicles under DARPA’s HTV-2 program suffered failures in 2010 and 2011, the Air Force by 2013 appeared ...

Quote
Others involved in U.S. hypersonics support the report’s recommendations. Kevin Bowcutt, senior technical fellow and chief scientist for hypersonics at Boeing Research and Technology, says “many lessons on the path to X-51A success were hard-earned. Given the criticality of hypersonics as articulated in the report and with X-51A under our belt, there would be obvious value in leveraging this extensive experience and know-how to accelerate full-scale development of an operational hypersonic vehicle or weapon.”

Bowcutt also believes the U.S. needs to create “a comprehensive national plan with adequate funding that fields offensive and defensive hypersonic capabilities as quickly as technology maturation, system integration and capability demonstration allow.”

“It is a big problem for us. We have been kind of resting on our laurels,” says Leon McKinney, president of McKinney Associates and former executive director of the U.S. hypersonics industry team. “The U.S. has been fighting wars and terrorism, so that is one of the reasons why we have not seen a burst of capability developments. But it seems our adversaries are catching up.”

McKinney backs a three-phased approach to spurring development of a boost-glide capability, starting with a focus on an offensive hypersonic system that he believes could still be fielded within three years. Development of a defensive system, which McKinney says is “tough,” would aim at characterizing Chinese and Russian vehicle maneuvering capabilities to produce a “threat tube,” to enable effective interdiction. A third element would include development of a maneuvering target vehicle “which we could engage as a simulated threat.”

The report does not specify that current programs should be abandoned, “but we think there are some programmatic changes we need to see,” says Lewis. “We just say, step on the gas and move these programs forward. If you want to map out a strategy to get you from the things we have tested to an operational system, one would argue we are not on that track.”

http://aviationweek.com/defense/classified-report-hypersonics-says-us-lacking-urgency

Podcast: Hypersonics Wake-Up Call

http://aviationweek.com/defense/podcast-hypersonics-wake-call
« Last Edit: 02/17/2017 07:02 PM by Star One »

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #35 on: 02/19/2017 09:37 PM »
Classified Report On Hypersonics Says U.S. Lacking Urgency

Sounds to me more like a call for more money by someone frustrated at the current lack of progress..

After all, it wouldn't be the first time in the history of aerospace that "The Russians Are Coming!" evoked a response from those holding the purse-strings.  :P
« Last Edit: 02/19/2017 09:41 PM by CameronD »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #36 on: 02/19/2017 10:08 PM »
Classified Report On Hypersonics Says U.S. Lacking Urgency

Sounds to me more like a call for more money by someone frustrated at the current lack of progress..

After all, it wouldn't be the first time in the history of aerospace that "The Russians Are Coming!" evoked a response from those holding the purse-strings.  :P

I expect it to work pretty well if it is in the current climate.

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #37 on: 02/20/2017 02:22 AM »
Before anyone posts anything about hypersonic flight, they should read T. A. Heppenheimer's book
FACING THE HEAT BARRIER: A HISTORY OF HYPERSONICS (NASA-SP-2007-4232). It's probably available free from the NASA History Program website and is the best popular history of this field. Any sane person who reads this book won't be fooled by scare stories in the tabloid press about impossible Russian and Chinese hypersonic aircraft.

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #38 on: 02/20/2017 05:53 AM »
Before anyone posts anything about hypersonic flight, they should read T. A. Heppenheimer's book
FACING THE HEAT BARRIER: A HISTORY OF HYPERSONICS (NASA-SP-2007-4232). It's probably available free from the NASA History Program website and is the best popular history of this field. Any sane person who reads this book won't be fooled by scare stories in the tabloid press about impossible Russian and Chinese hypersonic aircraft.

Who said anything about aircraft here.

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #39 on: 02/20/2017 06:34 AM »
Well my post has been censored but it doesn't matter. I say it again (perhaps more politely) David Axe knows little about spaceflight and it is more clickbait than anything else.
As for the Daily Mail it is hardly better.


... that ackward moment when you realize that Jeff Bezos personal fortune is far above NASA annual budget... 115 billion to 18 billion...

Offline Star One

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #40 on: 02/20/2017 12:38 PM »
Well my post has been censored but it doesn't matter. I say it again (perhaps more politely) David Axe knows little about spaceflight and it is more clickbait than anything else.
As for the Daily Mail it is hardly better.

I think we are talking at cross purposes here as I was referring to the classified report that Aviation Week were reporting on.
« Last Edit: 02/20/2017 12:39 PM by Star One »

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #41 on: 02/20/2017 04:05 PM »
Russia Is Building a Nuclear Space Bomber
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/07/14/russia-is-building-a-nuclear-space-bomber.html

Russia reveals hypersonic stealth bomber that can launch nuclear attacks from space: Radical plane could begin testing in 2020
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3689325/Russia-reveals-hypersonic-stealth-bomber-launch-nuclear-attacks-space-Radical-plane-begin-testing-2020.html

I reacted to this post, more exactly to the links, which are pretty bad (a nuclear space bomber ? really ? powered by fairy dust ?)
... that ackward moment when you realize that Jeff Bezos personal fortune is far above NASA annual budget... 115 billion to 18 billion...

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #42 on: 02/20/2017 11:29 PM »
I reacted to this post, more exactly to the links, which are pretty bad (a nuclear space bomber ? really ? powered by fairy dust ?)
Yet Another SCramjet powered plan.   :(

It just does not add up.

The Russians have an ICBM that can hit anywhere on the planet in less than 30 mins already. They've sunk a lot of cash into that and it seems to work alright.

As has been noted an X37b could carry a nuclear warhead in it's payload bay but why would it?

BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C Apply So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline QuantumG

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #43 on: 02/21/2017 10:16 PM »
As has been noted an X37b could carry a nuclear warhead in it's payload bay but why would it?

Weapons to fight the Goa'uld.
Jeff Bezos has billions to spend on rockets and can go at whatever pace he likes! Wow! What pace is he going at? Well... have you heard of Zeno's paradox?

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #44 on: 02/22/2017 08:56 AM »
Weapons to fight the Goa'uld.

Ah so if Americans fail to get all of them in orbit then Russian bomber will finish the job by nuking all the landed motherships.
Now it all makes sense.
AD·ASTRA·ASTRORVM·GRATIA

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #45 on: 02/24/2017 02:29 PM »
Classified Report On Hypersonics Says U.S. Lacking Urgency

Sounds to me more like a call for more money by someone frustrated at the current lack of progress..

After all, it wouldn't be the first time in the history of aerospace that "The Russians Are Coming!" evoked a response from those holding the purse-strings.  :P


Yeah like that time people complained about Sputnik just for money......

Or maybe there is a real threat that unbiased experts now recognize as a threat, after all it is very arrogant to doubt the advanced engineering and determination of both Russia and China to develop hypersonic weapons.
"Every vision is a joke until the first man accomplishes it; once realized, it becomes commonplace." - Robert Goddard

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #46 on: 02/24/2017 10:23 PM »
Or maybe there is a real threat that unbiased experts now recognize as a threat, after all it is very arrogant to doubt the advanced engineering and determination of both Russia and China to develop hypersonic weapons.
Historically the US has flown ramjet missiles to M5. It just took a stuck fuel valve and IIRC worked quite well (till it ran out of fuel)  :)

The problem with hypersonic flight is not that it can't be done, it's when people insist on doing it in the atmosphere and using a SCramjet to do it. If you're OK with using a rocket it's (relatively speaking) not that difficult. If you want longer range in the same package then ramjets can already do that with reasonable T/W.

Engineering a long range hypersonic missile using a conventional ramjet is within the current SoA. The toughest part is likely to be the structure and the TPS.
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C Apply So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #47 on: 06/07/2017 10:49 AM »
Skunk Works Hints At SR-72 Demonstrator Progress

DENVER, Colorado—Four years after revealing plans to develop a Mach 6 strike and reconnaissance aircraft, Lockheed Martin says hypersonic technologies are now sufficiently mature to enable progress towards a flight ...

http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/skunk-works-hints-sr-72-demonstrator-progress

Quote
However, Weiss hints that work on a combined cycle propulsion system and other key advances needed for a viable hypersonic vehicle are reaching readiness levels sufficient for incorporation into some form of demonstrator. Following critical ground demonstrator tests from 2013 through 2017, Lockheed Martin is believed to be on track to begin development of an optionally piloted flight research vehicle (FRV) starting as early as next year. The FRV is expected to be around the same size as an F-22 and powered by a full-scale, combined cycle engine.

Quote
“The combined cycle work is still occurring and obviously a big breakthrough in the air-breathing side of hypersonics is the propulsion system,” Weiss adds. “So this is not just on combined cycle but on other elements of propulsion system.”
The technology of the “air breather has been matured and work is continuing on those capabilities to demonstrate that they are ready to go and be fielded,” he adds.

I'd thought even a demonstrator testing at hypersonic velocities in the big empty of Area 51 is going to be noticeable?
« Last Edit: 06/07/2017 11:00 AM by Star One »

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #48 on: 06/28/2017 01:31 PM »

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #49 on: 07/12/2017 04:45 PM »
US, Australia conclude secretive hypersonic flight series

Quote
The tests were conducted under the auspices of the Hypersonic International Flight Research Experimentation (HiFIRE) programme, says Australia's Department of Defence in a statement.

In the statement, defence minister Marise Payne congratulated Canberra's Defence Science and Technology Group (DST) and the US Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL) "on another successful hypersonic flight at Woomera test range."

She said that the tests have achieved "significant milestones, including design assembly, and pre-flight testing of the hypersonic vehicles and design of complex avionics and control systems."

She said Canberra and Washington DC are drafting plans for future hypersonic work.

The statement also thanked Boeing, BAE Systems, and the University of Queensland as partners on the programme.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/us-australia-conclude-secretive-hypersonic-flight-439239/

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #50 on: 07/13/2017 12:11 AM »
I'd thought even a demonstrator testing at hypersonic velocities in the big empty of Area 51 is going to be noticeable?

Maybe, but taken in concert with your post above, if the tests were held at Woomera, there's no-one anywhere close enough to see, hear or care..  :-X
« Last Edit: 07/13/2017 12:11 AM by CameronD »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #51 on: 07/17/2017 05:50 AM »
In today's news:

Hypervelocity HIFiRE missile tests at Woomera counter ‘future threats’

http://www.news.com.au/technology/science/hyperveolocity-hirise-missile-tests-at-woomera-counter-future-threats/news-story/a2fdd3b662999264ebe701a1707cdd0e

and from the source:
https://www.uq.edu.au/news/article/2017/07/hypersonic-flight-test-goes-rocket
 


I do find it amusing that the UQ article starts by saying "Commercialised flight faster than five times the speed of sound has been brought one step closer.." but then links to the above video of the launch with DoD end credits... Heh. ::)
« Last Edit: 07/17/2017 05:51 AM by CameronD »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #52 on: 07/17/2017 09:52 AM »
One of the troubles with hypersonic systems is people don't compare like with like.

Experimental SCramjets seem to have about a T/W ratio of about 2 or 3:1.

The J58 engine and nacelle package on the SR71 was around 2.5:1 (and you really need that nacelle to make the whole concept work).

But
1) That package could fly the aircraft from a standing standing start on the runway.
2) The aircraft leaked a lot until it had warmed up enough for the plates to seal (as did Concorde BTW). It was not an issue because JP7 did not burn without substantial effort.
3) JP7 required a separate logistics supply chain to deliver it, including dedicated tanker aircraft.
3) ConOps for the SR71 was to takeoff mostly empty and require air to air refueling for most fuel loading.  This lowered the fire hazard but also would have lowered the landing gear strength requirements significantly.

All of which was acceptable in the Cold War for the unique capabilities it gave the US at the time.

JP 7 has been out of production for decades and was several times more expensive than conventional fuel.

SCramjets can't accelerate a plane from a standing start, and given the 80+ years people have worked on ramjets they probably never will.

That ConOps  won't work with aircraft carriers. It's never been made to work with any civilian aircraft and if you require the aircraft to run on a fuel that's not liquid at room temperature (LH2 or Methane)  that's a complete non starter.

I strongly doubt the "SR72" is anywhere close to being built, despite what LM will no doubt say.
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C Apply So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #53 on: 07/18/2017 04:41 PM »
One of the troubles with hypersonic systems is people don't compare like with like.

Experimental SCramjets seem to have about a T/W ratio of about 2 or 3:1.

The J58 engine and nacelle package on the SR71 was around 2.5:1 (and you really need that nacelle to make the whole concept work).

But
1) That package could fly the aircraft from a standing standing start on the runway.
2) The aircraft leaked a lot until it had warmed up enough for the plates to seal (as did Concorde BTW). It was not an issue because JP7 did not burn without substantial effort.
3) JP7 required a separate logistics supply chain to deliver it, including dedicated tanker aircraft.
3) ConOps for the SR71 was to takeoff mostly empty and require air to air refueling for most fuel loading.  This lowered the fire hazard but also would have lowered the landing gear strength requirements significantly.

All of which was acceptable in the Cold War for the unique capabilities it gave the US at the time.

JP 7 has been out of production for decades and was several times more expensive than conventional fuel.

SCramjets can't accelerate a plane from a standing start, and given the 80+ years people have worked on ramjets they probably never will.

That ConOps  won't work with aircraft carriers. It's never been made to work with any civilian aircraft and if you require the aircraft to run on a fuel that's not liquid at room temperature (LH2 or Methane)  that's a complete non starter.

I strongly doubt the "SR72" is anywhere close to being built, despite what LM will no doubt say.
As it's a highly classified program for the most part starting what is or isn't possible within it is a fools errand.

All this post does is seemingly point out your pre-existing prejudices on the topic.
« Last Edit: 07/18/2017 10:22 PM by Star One »

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #54 on: 07/19/2017 11:08 AM »

As it's a highly classified program for the most part starting what is or isn't possible within it is a fools errand.
It's a non existent programme.

LM's PR offensive has been to get it to get their Powerpoint funded. 

The days when the CIA could build (literally) a squadron of very large M3+ planes in a few years in near complete secrecy are over.

I think the fact that every SCramjet that has ever been flight tested has flown on a rocket (despite at least 6 decades of research and several $Bn spent on the concept) first says a great deal about the viability of the idea.
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C Apply So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #55 on: 08/01/2017 12:50 PM »
U.S. Air Force Plans Road Map To Operational Hypersonics



Quote
....Tucker’s optimism is based on a dramatic upswing in the Air Force hypersonic research budget. Compared to 2012, when the Air Force spent just under $79 million on hypersonic science and technology programs, the service requested more than $292 million for the same areas in the 2018 presidential budget. Of this, $90 million was requested for prototyping.

While a number of classified hypersonic missile efforts are thought to be underway in the U.S., the only acknowledged committed government research developments are a series of technology demonstrator programs led by DARPA. These include two high-speed strike weapons: the Tactical Boost Glide (TBG) program and the Hypersonic Air-Breathing Weapon (HAWC). The TBG is a follow-on to the unsuccessful HTV-2 hypersonic cruise vehicle demonstrator and is a rocket-launched hypersonic weapon capable of flying more than 1,000 mi. in 10 min. The TBG, in development by Lockheed Martin, is attempting to repackage the high lift-to-drag aerodynamic and aerothermal design concepts of the global-range HTV-2 into a smaller, tactical-range weapon

Raytheon Missile Systems and Lockheed Martin are meanwhile competing for the HAWC, a follow-on to the Air Force Research Laboratory’s (AFRL) successful Boeing X-51A WaveRider hypersonic scramjet engine demonstrator.

Leveraging elements of these DARPA/AFRL efforts, the Air Force has meanwhile begun efforts to develop an air-launched Hypersonic Conventional Strike Weapon. Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon Missile Systems and Orbital ATK have all been listed as potential developers of the precision strike missile, which the service says will be fired at “high-value, time-critical fixed and relocatable surface targets.” A contract for development of the weapon—which will be conventionally armed, powered by solid rocket and guided by an integrated GPS/INS (inertial guidance system)—will be awarded in early 2018.

Beyond missiles and XS-1, DARPA’s other major hypersonic program is the Advanced Full-Range Engine (AFRE), a ground demonstrator of a turbine-based combined-cycle engine that will enable an aircraft to operate at Mach 5+ from standard runways. Launched 18 months ago, AFRE is a “full-scale engine, and will validate [that] we can have an effective engine,” says DARPA Tactical Technology Office Director Brad Tousley. “We need the same sort of thing as the J58 was in the SR-71, and AFRE is the same sort of thing. If that is successful, we think it would open up the trade space for us to work together with the Air Force, the U.S. Navy and others on a really ‘no-kidding’ reusable hypersonic aircraft......
« Last Edit: 08/01/2017 12:51 PM by Star One »

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #56 on: 08/12/2017 08:58 AM »
Looking over the Broad Agency Announcement for the Advanced Full Range Engine

DARPA-BAA-16-45

https://www.fbo.gov/utils/view?id=abd1d7a237bbb47d78de5d722a9d7fca

We find
Quote
A TBCC system combines a turbine engine for low-speed operations with a dual
mode ramjet (DMRJ) for high-speed operations via a common inlet and nozzle serving
both the low-speed and high-speed flowpaths."
and
Quote
DARPA is only interested in proposals addressing full system solutions for AFRE.

DARPA is not interested in lower Mach solutions such as a turbo-ramjet or
solutions that use accelerants.
So basically it's a SCRamjet or nothing,despite the fact Ramjets have been demonstrated to operate to Mach 5 already.  :(
Quote
TBCC Maturation activities (Water Injection with an F405-RR-402 Turbine Engine and
the Low Mach DMRJ Free-Jet) as they become available
Looking that up we find

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Turbomeca_Adour
Quote
F405-RR-402 - Upgrade of F405-RR-401, incorporating Mk 951 technology, certified 2008. Did not enter into service due to funding issues.
Which means it is a non after-burning low BP turbofan of 6500 lbf thrust, redesigned for longer service life and a new FADEC.

This looks like a USN engine upgrade programme that did not get funded, so the engine is a one off, although no doubt more could be made.

That sketches in a single engine drone (AFAIK all the aircraft that use it are twin engined).
The US consultancy that looked at a SABRE based TSTO for the USAF reckoned you need aengine thrust = 50% of GTOW to go supersonic so that gives a GTOW of about 13 000 lb

I don't really see why they don't just hand the money to Aerojet. It's basically written so they are the only people who can win this.  :(
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Offline Star One

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #57 on: 08/12/2017 09:25 AM »
Let's see DARPA Vs some random person on the internet, let me think who is the more likely to know what is actually required for this particular item.

I think we'd already established you don't like scramjets so there's nothing new here.
« Last Edit: 08/12/2017 09:27 AM by Star One »

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #58 on: 08/12/2017 10:14 AM »
Let's see DARPA Vs some random person on the internet, let me think who is the more likely to know what is actually required for this particular item.
It's research.

No one actually knows what's required till they actually start doing it.

That said most people would think that after 6 decades and about $4Bn the USG might have a better idea.
Note that expenditure.

It's not that SCRamjets have had no funding. It's that they have had a huge amount of cash put in over decades and they still haven't delivered anything close to an engine, let alone a vehicle to carry it.

Quote from: Star One
I think we'd already established you don't like scramjets so there's nothing new here.
I'm sorry your mind is so closed that that is all you could read into my post.  I posted it here because, y'know its about "general hypersonic" stuff.

And because this actually looks like the power plant for the fabled SR72.

I will be very impressed to see a full scale ground test of an engine across 5 Mach numbers, since SABRE was developed to avoid precisely that requirement, given how difficult it is (I'd love to find out what Arnold spent on the APTU upgrade).

I will be even more impressed if they manage to put it into a vehicle that weighs less than 13 000lb for $65m.

To put this in perspective what I have trouble with is the absolute insistence that a ramjet cannot do the job, despite the fact that the J58 and its nacelle could get 70% of the way to M5 before the first SCramjet contract was signed at the APL.  :(

It's not the goal I object to.  :(

It's the absolute, fanatical, dogmatic insistence that only an  SCramjet can do this, when the actual operating range of conventional ramjets has still not been established.

[EDIT it's especially odd when you see (from the BAA) that they don't require start up of the DMRJ below M2.5. Given that ramjets of the 1950's could cruise at M2 this is not especially low. Indeed 3 Mach numbers puts it at M5.5 without any SC requirement. M2 startup would put it comfortably within the state of practice for high performance military aircraft, without the following features.

Now note
http://www.tailsthroughtime.com/2012/07/the-mach-3-phantom.html
https://tacairnet.com/2015/06/18/redeveloping-the-f-4-phantom-ii-into-a-mach-3-fighterspy-plane/

Running a far more conventional turbofan up to M3 was viewed as quite viable, with pre compressor cooling, 40 years ago. The SCramjet would have to give phenomenal improvements in fuel consumption, along with operating without exotic fuel grades like JP7, to justify it's inclusion in a design. ]

That's why people have called them "scamjets" in the past.  :(
« Last Edit: 08/12/2017 02:39 PM by john smith 19 »
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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #59 on: 08/14/2017 05:45 PM »
I realize that the SR-71 and YF-12 were short of the true definition of hypersonic(IIRC Hypersonic relates to Mach 5 and above).
If the Mach 3+ SR-71/YF-12 were still operational, would NASA have enough demand for testing at over Mach 3 to keep at least a pair of them airworthy?
Paul

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #60 on: 08/18/2017 11:30 AM »
Captive-Carry Tests Coming For Hypersonic Flying Testbed

With demand for high-speed test capability on the increase, small launch-vehicle developer Generation Orbit Launch Services is preparing for a critical series of hot-fire and captive-carry flight tests of its hypersonic flying testbed at Edwards AFB, California. The Atlanta-based company is developing the GOLauncher 1 (GO1) vehicle for suborbital research and hypersonic flight-testing, and aims to fill a gap in high-speed atmospheric test capability which has existed since the retirement of ...

http://m.aviationweek.com/aircraft-design/captive-carry-tests-coming-hypersonic-flying-testbed

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #61 on: 08/22/2017 06:26 AM »
Captive-Carry Tests Coming For Hypersonic Flying Testbed

With demand for high-speed test capability on the increase, small launch-vehicle developer Generation Orbit Launch Services is preparing for a critical series of hot-fire and captive-carry flight tests of its hypersonic flying testbed at Edwards AFB, California. The Atlanta-based company is developing the GOLauncher 1 (GO1) vehicle for suborbital research and hypersonic flight-testing, and aims to fill a gap in high-speed atmospheric test capability which has existed since the retirement of ...

http://m.aviationweek.com/aircraft-design/captive-carry-tests-coming-hypersonic-flying-testbed
Looks quite similar to the Orbital Access TSTO LV concept, but without the internal payload bay or the reusability.

Time will tell who is better at raising funding and which is the better business model.
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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #62 on: 09/05/2017 07:58 AM »
Wonder if this line in the budget could be referencing the development of a boost-glide weapon. Interesting that they are also developing their own independent space situational awareness program as well.

Quote
the development of a high-speed glide bomb for use in contingencies on such islands (10 billion yen); the development of a system to monitor space activity (4.4 billion yen).

http://thediplomat.com/2017/08/whats-in-japans-record-2018-defense-budget-request/
« Last Edit: 09/05/2017 07:59 AM by Star One »

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #63 on: 09/06/2017 04:13 PM »
Wonder if this line in the budget could be referencing the development of a boost-glide weapon. Interesting that they are also developing their own independent space situational awareness program as well.

Quote
the development of a high-speed glide bomb for use in contingencies on such islands (10 billion yen); the development of a system to monitor space activity (4.4 billion yen).

http://thediplomat.com/2017/08/whats-in-japans-record-2018-defense-budget-request/
If there isn't a boost phase it will basically be like the "paveway" kit fitted to conventional bombs.

The "space activity monitoring" part may well integrate with the plans to deploy a version of the Aegis system ashore, along with Patriot batteries. 

The timing is odd as presumably all this was in the works for some time before the North Koreans sent an ICBM over their islands, which would make any country very nervous.
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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #64 on: 09/06/2017 04:17 PM »
Wonder if this line in the budget could be referencing the development of a boost-glide weapon. Interesting that they are also developing their own independent space situational awareness program as well.

Quote
the development of a high-speed glide bomb for use in contingencies on such islands (10 billion yen); the development of a system to monitor space activity (4.4 billion yen).

http://thediplomat.com/2017/08/whats-in-japans-record-2018-defense-budget-request/
If there isn't a boost phase it will basically be like the "paveway" kit fitted to conventional bombs.

The "space activity monitoring" part may well integrate with the plans to deploy a version of the Aegis system ashore, along with Patriot batteries. 

The timing is odd as presumably all this was in the works for some time before the North Koreans sent an ICBM over their islands, which would make any country very nervous.

Wouldn't hypersonic weapons be quite attractive to the Japanese military considering the country's commitment regarding not being a nuclear military power, but still allowing them to have a one hit weapon to take out well protected targets.

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #65 on: 09/07/2017 07:09 AM »
Wouldn't hypersonic weapons be quite attractive to the Japanese military considering the country's commitment regarding not being a nuclear military power, but still allowing them to have a one hit weapon to take out well protected targets.

Sure.. but, based on recent news events, they kinda need it now (not in several years time).
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #66 on: 09/07/2017 09:21 AM »
Sure.. but, based on recent news events, they kinda need it now (not in several years time).
Putting Aegis on shore (or Patriot) gives you missiles roughly in the M2.8-3.5 range as quickly as a deal can be agreed and production arranged.

The Japanese seem to have at least one SAM capable of M2.8.

"boost glide" is quite a loose term. Technically speaking artillery and mortars are also "boost glide" weapons, and anti tank guns can reach M5 muzzle velocities, which you would need for a hypersonic boost glide weapon.

Depending on the design approach Japan might be able to field a weapon surprisingly quickly given suitable motivation. I think the North Korean ICBM test would be suitable motivation.
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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #67 on: 09/10/2017 12:43 AM »
Somewhat more on topic I found a report on  this, which I present without comment, from the Georgia Inst of Technology.


http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.526.7376&rep=rep1&type=pdf

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #68 on: 09/12/2017 04:53 PM »
Advanced fuel system to enable hypersonic flight by transferring heat

Quote
Under a very successful Phase I project with the US Air Force, Reaction Systems has identified a fuel and catalyst combination that can undergo a chemical reaction that produces much higher endotherms than currently available with kerosene-based fuels.

Reaction Systems has just been notified of a Phase II award to continue development of the fuel/catalyst system and design a custom heat exchanger/reactor for use in a hypersonic engine.

Reaction Systems has a novel solution to the heat transfer issue that may open the door to practical hypersonic aircraft propulsion.

According to Jeff Engel, COO of Reaction system, in hypersonic flight the combustor temperature gets so high that materials can’t survive in that environment; you have to continually cool the combustor sections. They are developing a fuel system to absorb that heat load from the combustor specifically, so that the final speed of the vehicle is faster.

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/09/advanced-fuel-system-to-enable-hypersonic-flight-by-transferring-heat.html
« Last Edit: 09/12/2017 04:54 PM by Star One »

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #69 on: 09/28/2017 11:31 AM »
Amid SR-72 Rumors, Skunk Works Ramps Up Hypersonics

Quote
“Although I can’t go into specifics, let us just say the Skunk Works team in Palmdale, California, is doubling down on our commitment to speed,” says Orlando Carvalho, executive vice president of aeronautics at Lockheed Martin, speaking at the SAE International Aerotech Congress and Exhibition here.

“Simply put, I believe the United States is on the verge of a hypersonics revolution,” he says.

Quote
Referencing ongoing development of the Darpa/U.S. Air Force Research Laboratory Tactical Boost Glide weapon and Hypersonic Air-breathing Weapon Concept research program, the latter in competition with Raytheon, Carvalho says, “Over the last decade progress has been moving quickly, and hypersonic technology is clearly becoming apparent to everyone as a game changer. We continue to advance and test technology which will benefit hypersonic flight and are working on multiple programs, including two Darpa efforts. Speed matters, especially when it comes to national security.”


Quote
Skunk Works is believed to be planning the start of FRV development next year, with first flight targeted for 2020. The FRV will be around the same size as an F-22 and powered by a full-scale, combined-cycle engine. However, in the run-up to the demonstrator development, Lockheed is thought to be testing several discrete technologies in a series of ground and flight tests.

According to information provided to Aviation Week, one such technology demonstrator, believed to be an unmanned subscale aircraft, was observed flying into the U.S. Air Force’s Plant 42 at Palmdale, where Skunk Works is headquartered. The vehicle, which was noted landing in the early hours at an unspecified date in late July, was seen with two T-38 escorts. Lockheed Martin declined to comment directly on the sighting.

The company previously has said the follow-on step would be development of a full-scale, twin-engined SR-72. With roughly the same proportions as the SR-71, the larger vehicle would enter flight test in the late 2020s.

“Hypersonics is like stealth. It is a disruptive technology and will enable various platforms to operate at two to three times the speed of the Blackbird,” Carvalho says. “Operational survivability and lethality is the ultimate deterrent. Security classification guidance will only allow us to say the speed is greater than Mach 5.”

http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/amid-sr-72-rumors-skunk-works-ramps-hypersonics

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #70 on: 09/30/2017 10:30 PM »
Further to the above.

Quote
Stephen Trimble @FG_STrim
In 2016, DARPA released a concept of a vehicle that would use the SR-72's propulsion system. Keep your eyes out for this, Antelope Valley.

https://mobile.twitter.com/FG_STrim/status/913813922049818625

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #71 on: 10/01/2017 03:55 PM »
 Lets remember that the SR-71 was an intelligence gathering craft, as was the MD-21 drone launcher, and the original A-12.  The only variant that was to be weaponized was the YF-12, and it was to be a high speed interceptor, presumably for defense of North America.
Lets be clear that the SR-72s purpose will indeed be purely a weapons platform, defense perhaps, offensive, 100%.
Maybe its just me, but using nomenclature which is identified with an intelligence gathering craft only, for a weaponized platform, could be viewed as disingenuous.  She wont be taking pictures, she will be delivering a "kill shot" of some sort.
It's a shame that many technologies are driven by militarization, but it is a reality as that's where the money is.
Crazy interesting technologies though, wow!  Palmdale is busy.
Paul

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #72 on: 10/01/2017 04:20 PM »
Lets remember that the SR-71 was an intelligence gathering craft, as was the MD-21 drone launcher, and the original A-12.  The only variant that was to be weaponized was the YF-12, and it was to be a high speed interceptor, presumably for defense of North America.
Lets be clear that the SR-72s purpose will indeed be purely a weapons platform, defense perhaps, offensive, 100%.
Maybe its just me, but using nomenclature which is identified with an intelligence gathering craft only, for a weaponized platform, could be viewed as disingenuous.  She wont be taking pictures, she will be delivering a "kill shot" of some sort.
It's a shame that many technologies are driven by militarization, but it is a reality as that's where the money is.
Crazy interesting technologies though, wow!  Palmdale is busy.

There has been some rumours that the SR-72 designation will not be its final designation. After all technically it’s classed under global strike.

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #73 on: 10/01/2017 06:13 PM »
The funny thing with the SR-71 is that the -71 is kind of last line in the bomber designation system before they got back to B-1.
What happened was this
XB-70 Valkyrie > RS-70 > SR-71.
RS-70 was a last ditch atempt by North American to rescue the B-70 as a post-strike reconnaissance aircraft. It would have smashed whatever was left standing of USSR after ICBMs rained.

The RS-70 proposal was rejected but Lockheed tried to place down an A-12 variant to the Air Force and this become the SR-71.
... that ackward moment when you realize that Jeff Bezos personal fortune is far above NASA annual budget... 115 billion to 18 billion...

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #74 on: 10/01/2017 06:49 PM »
The funny thing with the SR-71 is that the -71 is kind of last line in the bomber designation system before they got back to B-1.
What happened was this
XB-70 Valkyrie > RS-70 > SR-71.
RS-70 was a last ditch atempt by North American to rescue the B-70 as a post-strike reconnaissance aircraft. It would have smashed whatever was left standing of USSR after ICBMs rained.

The RS-70 proposal was rejected but Lockheed tried to place down an A-12 variant to the Air Force and this become the SR-71.

As with the U-2 & SR-71 I bet NASA wouldn’t mind a couple of civilian versions of the SR-72 for atmospheric research.

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #75 on: 10/10/2017 12:39 PM »
DARPA Awards Aerojet Rocketdyne Contract to Develop Hypersonic Advanced Full Range Engine

http://www.rocket.com/article/darpa-awards-aerojet-rocketdyne-contract-develop-hypersonic-advanced-full-range-engine

Here’s another article on the award.

Aerojet Rocketdyne To Demo Combined-Cycle Hypersonic Engine

Quote
As the U.S. steps up research and development for hypersonic weapons, DARPA has awarded Aerojet Rocketdyne a contract to demonstrate a turbine-based combined cycle (TBCC) engine that could power a reusable high-speed aircraft from takeoff to beyond Mach ...

Quote
Under the program, large-scale components of the propulsion system will first be demonstrated independently, followed by a full-scale freejet ground test of the TBCC mode transition. Accomplishing these objectives will enable future air-breathing hypersonic systems for long-range strike, high-speed intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance, and two-stage-to-orbit space access, DARPA says.

Conceptual design of a hypersonic vehicle was completed in fiscal 2017 to enable definition of the ground demonstration engine performance requirements. Plans for fiscal 2018 include beginning testing of a large-scale common inlet and full-scale DMRJ combustor, completing fabrication of the full-scale common nozzle and beginning integration of the off-the-shelf turbine engine.

http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/aerojet-rocketdyne-demo-combined-cycle-hypersonic-engine
« Last Edit: 10/10/2017 08:41 PM by Star One »

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #76 on: 10/14/2017 09:51 AM »
USAF searching for hypersonic vehicle materials

Quote
The US Air Force Research Laboratory is searching for leading edge materials for reusable and expendable hypersonic vehicles to support its high speed strike weapon programme.

Quote
Air Force Materiel Command will consider thermal performance as it selects the material, according to the $2.3 million contract award to Integration Innovation posted 27 September on the Federal Business Opportunities website. Based in Huntsville, Alabama, Integration Innovation Integration has previously worked with the Defense Department and NASA on thermal protection systems supporting hypersonic vehicles.

“The objective of the RX hypersonics programme is to provide a range of materials and processing options for future hypersonic vehicles,” an AFRL spokesman said in a 10 October statement to FlightGlobal.

Leading edges refer to the surfaces that first come in contact at hypersonic speed with the super-heated airflow, such as as the front of the nose, wings and empennage surfaces.

The USAF has proposed $31.2 million in fiscal year 2018 to focus research on high temperature aerospace materials and hypersonics. Budget documents also mention plans to improve fabrication of materials required for expendable hypersonic applications. The FY2018 budget proposal details plans for both re-usable and expendable hypersonic vehicles, including limited life intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance vehicles.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/usaf-searching-for-hypersonic-vehicle-materials-442171/

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #77 on: 10/17/2017 01:22 AM »
I found this little item.

It's the actual review of the NASP programme in late 1992, after it has been running for 5 years

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19940004890.pdf

The recommendation of this was to spend $100-200m/yr over the next 4 years to build a small scale drone to maybe pin down the unknowns far enough to build a full size flight vehicle.

Particularly interesting is Appendix D (pg 44), which lists where the Joint Project Office was at in 1992 IE what progress they'd made in 5 years.
Page 57 discusses the engine, which seems to be a LACE system up to M3. They describe the aerodynamic performance as "well characterized," but that gives no indication if they got frost control working.

It also talks of "unstart" loads (which IIRC crashed at least one SR71) being 5x to 10x the normal engine loads, with leading edge thermal loads of 100 000 BTU per foot of LE, per second. About 105.5MW/ft of LE

I'll leave others to comment on how much (or little) progress has been made in the 25 years since NASP. 
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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #78 on: 11/08/2017 06:37 AM »
China Shows Off Hypersonic Vehicle Test Model After US Navy Weapon Test

Quote
Chinese state media has shown what appears to be the first ever images of a physical test object associated with the design of the WU-14 hypersonic glide vehicle, also known as the DF-ZF. Though the two events did not appear to be related, this followed the U.S. Navy’s official disclosure that it had successfully test fired a hypersonic missile design of its own that could fit inside the standard launch tube on an Ohio-class submarine.

On Oct. 8, 2017, state-run broadcaster China Central Television, or CCTV, aired a special that dealt in part with the country’s JF-12 hypersonic wind tunnel. This is the largest testing setup of its kind in the world and can produce air speeds up to Mach 9 thanks to its pulse detonation engine. Interestingly, visible at one point in the presentation was a test shape that looks very similar to artist’s renderings and mockups of the DF-ZF hypersonic vehicle, which is likely the first time the Chinese government has shown an actual test article associated with the program. There are also computer-generated renderings of what appears to be a blended wing body aircraft or drone and a clip of technicians work on what could be a reentry vehicle, or a representative test shape of one, for a nuclear-armed ballistic missile.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/15828/china-shows-off-hypersonic-vehicle-test-model-after-us-navy-weapon-test

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #79 on: 11/08/2017 09:06 AM »
China Shows Off Hypersonic Vehicle Test Model After US Navy Weapon Test

Quote
Chinese state media has shown what appears to be the first ever images of a physical test object associated with the design of the WU-14 hypersonic glide vehicle, also known as the DF-ZF. Though the two events did not appear to be related, this followed the U.S. Navy’s official disclosure that it had successfully test fired a hypersonic missile design of its own that could fit inside the standard launch tube on an Ohio-class submarine.

On Oct. 8, 2017, state-run broadcaster China Central Television, or CCTV, aired a special that dealt in part with the country’s JF-12 hypersonic wind tunnel. This is the largest testing setup of its kind in the world and can produce air speeds up to Mach 9 thanks to its pulse detonation engine. Interestingly, visible at one point in the presentation was a test shape that looks very similar to artist’s renderings and mockups of the DF-ZF hypersonic vehicle, which is likely the first time the Chinese government has shown an actual test article associated with the program. There are also computer-generated renderings of what appears to be a blended wing body aircraft or drone and a clip of technicians work on what could be a reentry vehicle, or a representative test shape of one, for a nuclear-armed ballistic missile.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/15828/china-shows-off-hypersonic-vehicle-test-model-after-us-navy-weapon-test
Which would be astonishing, if correct.

If China actually had a M9 tunnel driven by a PDE you'd have to ask "Why don't they just build a flight weight PDE?"

From the various comments on the YT videos about this (and what I can understand of the video itself) it's a actually shock tunnel driven by combustion (strictly by detonation) of a fuel/oxidizer mix

Detonation driven tunnel <> pulse detonation engine.  :(

However when people think of detonation (or shock) tunnels they think in terms of 10s of cm across. This is huge, giving it a much bigger test section to use (allowing easier to make, and potentially better instrumented models) and (maybe) longer test runs ( in this context 0.1 secs is long. A 1 sec flow would be stunning).   
[EDIT This article has more details.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-12-hypersonic-flight-conditions-duplicating-shock-tunnel.205626/

Nozzle exit diameter is 2.5m delivering a 100ms (IE 0.1sec) duration at M5-M9 at 30-40Km altitude.

I don't know enough to say how much of that is actually usable due wall effects on the flow. The model in the photos looked pretty small for something that's fitting in an 8.2 foot wide tube, so presumably they want it to see a very smooth gas front undistorted by the tube it's flowing in. Keep in  mind M9 with M1 at 340m/s is less than 0.4 ms to pass a 1m long object so 100ms is > 250x longer than it should take to establish smooth flow, collect data and have the flow subside ]
« Last Edit: 11/08/2017 09:23 AM by john smith 19 »
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Offline CameronD

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #80 on: 11/08/2017 09:07 PM »
I don't know enough to say how much of that is actually usable due wall effects on the flow. The model in the photos looked pretty small for something that's fitting in an 8.2 foot wide tube, so presumably they want it to see a very smooth gas front undistorted by the tube it's flowing in. Keep in  mind M9 with M1 at 340m/s is less than 0.4 ms to pass a 1m long object so 100ms is > 250x longer than it should take to establish smooth flow, collect data and have the flow subside ]

Accurately instrumenting something much faster than 1ms (required response times in microseconds), whilst not impossible, isn't particularly trivial (ie. cheap) and brings a host of other issues/errors into play, like scan rate and the speed of signals in wires.  Perhaps they're also working at the limits of their instrumentation.
   
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #81 on: 11/08/2017 09:25 PM »
I don't know enough to say how much of that is actually usable due wall effects on the flow. The model in the photos looked pretty small for something that's fitting in an 8.2 foot wide tube, so presumably they want it to see a very smooth gas front undistorted by the tube it's flowing in. Keep in  mind M9 with M1 at 340m/s is less than 0.4 ms to pass a 1m long object so 100ms is > 250x longer than it should take to establish smooth flow, collect data and have the flow subside ]

Accurately instrumenting something much faster than 1ms (required response times in microseconds), whilst not impossible, isn't particularly trivial (ie. cheap) and brings a host of other issues/errors into play, like scan rate and the speed of signals in wires.  Perhaps they're also working at the limits of their instrumentation.
 
Depends on the sensors and their response times.

Consider that a "small disturbance high frequency response pressure sensor" is also called a microphone and such devices were "listening" to the sound of "reentry noise" up to 200 KHz on a reentry vehicle (in a wind tunnel, not actual flight) in the 70's.

Pressure sensitive paint and IR cameras have also raised the number of data points you can collect, along with high temperature IE Sapphire optical fibers.

I'd say the hardware is available but the challenge is scale effects. Mfg all the little holes on the surface so they don't corrupt the signal (painstaking and precise work), hence the attraction of "area" sensors that can read the whole surface.   
« Last Edit: 11/09/2017 10:42 PM by john smith 19 »
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C Apply So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline Star One

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #82 on: 11/12/2017 08:06 PM »
Navy's Ultimate Weapon: Sub-launched Hypersonic Missiles

Quote
Benedict refused to provide any other details of the test, but a Pentagon spokesperson later gave additional information when contacted by U.S. Naval Institute News. “The Navy Strategic Systems Program (SSP), on behalf of the Department of Defense, conducted an Intermediate Range Conventional Prompt Strike Flight Experiment-1 (CPS FE-1) test on Oct. 30, 2017, from Pacific Missile Range Facility, Kauai, Hawaii,” said Cmdr. Patrick Evans, the Pentagon spokesperson. “The test collected data on hypersonic boost-glide technologies and test-range performance for long-range atmospheric flight. This data will be used by the Department of Defense to anchor ground testing, modeling, and simulation of hypersonic flight vehicle performance and is applicable to a range of possible Conventional Prompt Strike (CPS) concepts.”

Quote
DOD has promised the Pacific and European combatant commands that certain hypersonic capabilities will be fielded within the timeframe of fiscal year 2018–22. If the Navy’s sea-based hypersonic missile capabilities are realized, they are likely to be deployed on the four Ohio-class guided-missile submarines, as well as the new Virginia-class attack submarines.

https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2017/11/12/navys_ultimate_weapon_sub-launched_hypersonic_missiles_112621.html

Wonder if the British navy will be seeking a similar capability for our submarines.
« Last Edit: 11/12/2017 08:11 PM by Star One »

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #83 on: 11/12/2017 10:23 PM »
Navy's Ultimate Weapon: Sub-launched Hypersonic Missiles

Quote
Benedict refused to provide any other details of the test, but a Pentagon spokesperson later gave additional information when contacted by U.S. Naval Institute News. “The Navy Strategic Systems Program (SSP), on behalf of the Department of Defense, conducted an Intermediate Range Conventional Prompt Strike Flight Experiment-1 (CPS FE-1) test on Oct. 30, 2017, from Pacific Missile Range Facility, Kauai, Hawaii,” said Cmdr. Patrick Evans, the Pentagon spokesperson. “The test collected data on hypersonic boost-glide technologies and test-range performance for long-range atmospheric flight. This data will be used by the Department of Defense to anchor ground testing, modeling, and simulation of hypersonic flight vehicle performance and is applicable to a range of possible Conventional Prompt Strike (CPS) concepts.”

Quote
DOD has promised the Pacific and European combatant commands that certain hypersonic capabilities will be fielded within the timeframe of fiscal year 2018–22. If the Navy’s sea-based hypersonic missile capabilities are realized, they are likely to be deployed on the four Ohio-class guided-missile submarines, as well as the new Virginia-class attack submarines.

https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2017/11/12/navys_ultimate_weapon_sub-launched_hypersonic_missiles_112621.html

Wonder if the British navy will be seeking a similar capability for our submarines.
Note this is a test mission to get baseline data to design a (possible) future weapon system, which may get funded.

It's a long way from anything getting deployed in front line service.

As for the British Navy I think they will be sticking with "run silent, run deep."
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C Apply So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #84 on: 11/14/2017 04:22 PM »
Lawmakers set 2022 target for DOD to field 'early operational' hypersonic strike capability

Quote
Congress will soon vote on a defense policy bill that requires the U.S. military to plan for an "early operational" variant of a hypersonic strike weapon by 2022, setting a new statutory expectation for the Conventional Prompt Strike technology development effort.

The conference version of the House and Senate Armed Services committees' fiscal year 2018 defense authorization bill adopts the position advanced by the House requiring the defense secretary and Joint Chiefs chairman to "plan to reach an early operational capability for the conventional prompt strike weapon system by not later than September 30, 2022."

The Pentagon does not have a formal acquisition program of record for a hypersonic strike capability. The Defense Department is exploring potential boost-glide hypersonic technologies as part of a research and development effort overseen by the office of the secretary of defense, a project that has spent nearly $1 billion to date, with plans to allocate another $1.2 billion over the next five years.

In accordance with congressional guidance in the FY-16 National Defense Authorization Act, DOD plans a materiel development decision for a Conventional Prompt Strike capability in FY-20, the initial gateway to a formal acquisition effort.

The final FY-18 defense policy bill scrapped a House-proposed provisions to fence half the funding for the Conventional Prompt Strike program in the current fiscal year until the Pentagon provides lawmakers a report on the program, opting instead to set a 180-day deadline for the delivery of the report after the bill is enacted.

The report, which is to be prepared by the Joint Chiefs chairman in consultation with the heads of U.S. European, Pacific and Strategic commands, is to outline "the required level of resources that is consistent with the level of priority associated to the capability gap."

The required Pentagon appraisal is also to outline "the estimated period for the delivery of a medium-range early operational capability [and] the required level of resources necessary to field a medium-range conventional prompt strike weapon within the United States (including the territories and possessions of the United States) or a similar sea-based system."

In addition, the report is to address plans to ensure interoperability among any joint military hypersonic strike capabilities as well as plans -- including policy options -- "considered appropriate to address any potential risks of ambiguity from the launch or employment of such a capability."

The Joint Requirements Oversight Council, led by Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Paul Selva, last year assured the heads of U.S. European and Pacific commands, who are watching China and Russia routinely flight test high-speed weapons, that "certain" hypersonic strike capabilities would be fielded within the FY-17 to FY-22 future years defense plan.

Then-Defense Secretary Ash Carter, in written responses to Rep. Robert Aderholt (R-AL) following a March 4, 2016, hearing of the House Appropriations defense subcommittee, explained DOD had promised commanders in Europe and the Pacific an initial hypersonic strike capability between FY-18 and FY-22.

Aderholt had asked whether any combatant commanders had formally identified a need for a Conventional Prompt Global Strike capability, or the means to strike targets anywhere on earth in as little as an hour.

Gen. Curtis Scaparrotti, EUCOM chief, and Adm. Harry Harris, PACOM head, according to Carter, both "submitted high-priority requirements for these capabilities" as part of the routine process combatant commanders use to influence Pentagon resource decisions, in this case the shape of the FY-18 budget and the accompanying five-year spending plan.

https://insidedefense.com/daily-news/lawmakers-set-2022-target-dod-field-early-operational-hypersonic-strike-capability

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #85 on: 11/24/2017 08:06 AM »
How hypersonic flight could transform air combat

A few highlights from the article.

Quote
The next, planned for 2019, will fly a Hyshot vehicle horizontally under its own power, for up to a minute at around Mach 8. Achieving hypersonic speed without a rocket, however, calls for a very different kind of engine.

Quote
Technology convergence too could play a part in the uptake of hypersonic flight in a combat role. The meteoric rise of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) over recent years and their widespread deployment across virtually the entire mission spectrum has brought the day when all fighter pilots will have been well and truly removed from their cockpits ever closer. It is arguably a much bigger step from the autonomous take-offs, landings and refuellings of the US Navy’s record-setting, carrier-based ‘Salty Dog’ to Lockheed’s SR-72 unmanned hypersonic spy plane, which could be operational by 2030, than from the SR-72 to hypersonic fighter drones.

The future of manned/unmanned fighters aside, the most immediate military application of hypersonic flight technology would seem likely to be in a new generation of missiles.

Quote
With so much to be gained, the US does not have the monopoly on hypersonic missile development and both Russia and China are known to be working on similar projects, although the details are seldom made public.  Never-the-less, Obnosov, has said that he fully expects air-launched hypersonic missiles capable of reaching Mach 6 to 8 to be ready as soon as 2020, in time for the new Tupolev PAK-DA strategic bombers due to enter service in 2023. He expects faster missiles will follow, and then piloted hypersonic aircraft around 2030 or 2040. Long before that, Russian Kirov-class cruisers are likely to be fielding the 3K-22M Zircon hypersonic cruise missile, with serial production of this scramjet-powered, anti-ship weapon scheduled to begin in 2018.

Chinese hypersonic programmes are even more opaque, but it appears that China is actively pursuing the technology, not least with the WU-14 glider, which is rumoured to be set for production towards the end of the 2020s.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/features/hypersonic-flight-transform-air-combat/

Offline chrisking0997

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #86 on: 12/01/2017 07:08 PM »
Im going to add this to this thread because I cant find any info anywhere else on it.  Does anyone know anything about a Hypersonic Technology Project at NASA?  I cant find anything online about it, but I just saw something to do with it here at Langley.  Curious if this is a new project or something I just have never heard of
Tried to tell you, we did.  Listen, you did not.  Now, screwed we all are.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #87 on: 12/01/2017 10:01 PM »
Im going to add this to this thread because I cant find any info anywhere else on it.  Does anyone know anything about a Hypersonic Technology Project at NASA?  I cant find anything online about it, but I just saw something to do with it here at Langley.  Curious if this is a new project or something I just have never heard of
Langley appears to be chock full of hypersonic testing equipment.

https://hapb-www.larc.nasa.gov/Public/Documents/Japan_paper_1.21.pdf

So there's probably something going somewhere on site.

There are lots of things about hypersonics that still need research. The question is wheather they are  going to be funded or wheather any researchers are going to bother.

The only thing that comes up is this

https://www.nasa.gov/aeroresearch/programs/aavp/ht

AIUI this is not a description of the branch. It is an (outline) description of the current tasks of the project. It looks either it's in its very early stages or there will be limited public information due to the DoD involvment.

Chuck Leonard
Project Manager (PM)

Paul Bartolotta
Deputy PM

Would appear to be the the people to be speaking to.
« Last Edit: 12/01/2017 10:10 PM by john smith 19 »
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C Apply So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #88 on: 12/05/2017 07:40 PM »
Hypersonic research could lead to future spy drone

Quote
The Air Force Research Laboratory has awarded a $9.8 million contract to the University of Dayton Research Institute to develop materials able to withstand the extremes of hypersonic flight.

The Air Force could use the advanced composites in a high-flying unmanned reusable reconnaissance air vehicle by the 2030s, according to Robert Mercier, chief engineer for AFRL’s high speed systems division in the Aerospace Systems Directorate at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.

“We’re looking for something that will give us more airplane-like operations,” he said. “In our research portfolio, we’re looking at ways to do more frequent and affordable flying of hypersonic systems.”

Flying at five times the speed of sound – the barrier to hypersonic flight – or faster, stresses materials with both high temperatures and pressures, researchers say.

http://www.whio.com/news/local-military/hypersonic-research-could-lead-future-spy-drone/rOaqyurXUU0rZ0aM1Aj1xL/

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #89 on: 01/02/2018 07:30 AM »
Introducing the DF-17: China's Newly Tested Ballistic Missile Armed With a Hypersonic Glide Vehicle

Quote
The DF-17 is the first hypersonic glide vehicle-equipped missile intended for operational deployment ever tested.

https://thediplomat.com/2017/12/introducing-the-df-17-chinas-newly-tested-ballistic-missile-armed-with-a-hypersonic-glide-vehicle/

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #90 on: 01/03/2018 03:31 PM »
Introducing the DF-17: China's Newly Tested Ballistic Missile Armed With a Hypersonic Glide Vehicle

Quote
The DF-17 is the first hypersonic glide vehicle-equipped missile intended for operational deployment ever tested.

https://thediplomat.com/2017/12/introducing-the-df-17-chinas-newly-tested-ballistic-missile-armed-with-a-hypersonic-glide-vehicle/
You appeared to have posted the same story twice.

Was that your intention?

So ballistic missile (which can be detected using BM EW system technology already) can launch (also detectable with current technology) a hypersonic glider.

Which by definition will have a massive IR footprint.
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C Apply So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #91 on: 01/03/2018 03:56 PM »
Introducing the DF-17: China's Newly Tested Ballistic Missile Armed With a Hypersonic Glide Vehicle

Quote
The DF-17 is the first hypersonic glide vehicle-equipped missile intended for operational deployment ever tested.

https://thediplomat.com/2017/12/introducing-the-df-17-chinas-newly-tested-ballistic-missile-armed-with-a-hypersonic-glide-vehicle/
You appeared to have posted the same story twice.

Was that your intention?

So ballistic missile (which can be detected using BM EW system technology already) can launch (also detectable with current technology) a hypersonic glider.

Which by definition will have a massive IR footprint.

This post in error has now been removed. Sorry.

Offline Star One

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #92 on: 01/12/2018 09:37 AM »
Now this is an unexpected development.

Boeing Unveils Hypersonic ‘Son-Of-Blackbird’ Contender

Quote
ORLANDO, Florida—Amid continuing signs of a significant upswing in U.S. hypersonic research and development, Boeing has revealed first details of a reusable Mach 5-plus demonstrator vehicle design that could pave the way for a future high-speed strike and reconnaissance ...

Quote
Although initially independently funded by Boeing, development of the hypersonic vehicle concept is continuing under Darpa’s Advanced Full Range Engine (AFRE) initiative and a closely-related turbine-based combined cycle (TBCC) flight demonstration concept study run by the U.S. Air Force Research Laboratory. Boeing’s engine partner for the concept is Orbital ATK, which in September 2017 was awarded a $21.4 million contract for the AFRE program. Boeing began work on the AFRL TBCC flight demonstrator concept study, with Orbital ATK as a subcontractor, in 2016.

Quote
“The propulsion system determines the length of the vehicle,” says Tom Smith, Boeing Research and Technology chief hypersonic aircraft designer. Although Boeing declines to discuss specific aspects of the design, the broad inlets and wide lower fuselage-mounted nacelle suggest the turbine and DMRJ in each TBCC engine are housed side-by-side rather than arranged in an over-under configuration.

The inward-turning inlets are positioned to capture the initial shockwave from the nose of the vehicle, while the sharply swept forebody chines are contoured into the relatively large-span delta wing to provide waveriding capability at hypersonic speed and sufficient lift for landing and takeoff at subsonic speed. The term waverider refers to a design in which the vehicle rides the shockwave attached to the leading edge, thus benefiting from lower induced drag. “As the narrow chine transitions to the wing, that produces a good vortex, which you care about at low speed,” Smith says.

http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/boeing-unveils-hypersonic-son-blackbird-contender
« Last Edit: 01/12/2018 11:22 AM by Star One »

Offline Star One

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #93 on: 01/12/2018 07:53 PM »
New article with a Boeing illustration of the concept.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/amp15070935/boeing-hypersonic-concept-replace-sr-71-blackbird/

As for LM now here’s a interesting recent comment.

Quote
Jack O’Banion, Vice President of Strategy and Customer Requirements, Advanced Development Programs for Lockheed Martin, at a presentation said that the SR72 could not have been made without digital transformation. This seems to indicate that a hypersonic vehicle has been built.

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2018/01/lockheed-may-have-completed-a-prototype-hypersonic-sr72.html
« Last Edit: 01/12/2018 08:05 PM by Star One »

Offline RotoSequence

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #94 on: 01/16/2018 04:21 PM »
New article with a Boeing illustration of the concept.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/amp15070935/boeing-hypersonic-concept-replace-sr-71-blackbird/

As for LM now here’s a interesting recent comment.

Quote
Jack O’Banion, Vice President of Strategy and Customer Requirements, Advanced Development Programs for Lockheed Martin, at a presentation said that the SR72 could not have been made without digital transformation. This seems to indicate that a hypersonic vehicle has been built.

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2018/01/lockheed-may-have-completed-a-prototype-hypersonic-sr72.html

The only twist we need now is that both aircraft were already built, and Northrop Grumman won the competition with an as yet classified third entry.  ;D
« Last Edit: 01/16/2018 04:23 PM by RotoSequence »

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #95 on: 01/17/2018 11:03 PM »
New article with a Boeing illustration of the concept.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/amp15070935/boeing-hypersonic-concept-replace-sr-71-blackbird/

As for LM now here’s a interesting recent comment.

Quote
Jack O’Banion, Vice President of Strategy and Customer Requirements, Advanced Development Programs for Lockheed Martin, at a presentation said that the SR72 could not have been made without digital transformation. This seems to indicate that a hypersonic vehicle has been built.

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2018/01/lockheed-may-have-completed-a-prototype-hypersonic-sr72.html

A Bloomberg article on the recent LM comments.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-16/america-s-fastest-spy-plane-may-be-back-and-hypersonic

In particular, I liked this quote from the same O’Banion as I have not seen this mentioned before (but might have missed it)

Quote
“But now we can digitally print that engine with an incredibly sophisticated cooling system integral into the material of the engine itself and have that engine survive for multiple firings for routine operation.” 

It almost sounds like they'll cool the turbine blades, or some pre-cooling system. Am curious whether this is similar to SABRE.

Offline Star One

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #96 on: 01/17/2018 11:08 PM »
New article with a Boeing illustration of the concept.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/amp15070935/boeing-hypersonic-concept-replace-sr-71-blackbird/

As for LM now here’s a interesting recent comment.

Quote
Jack O’Banion, Vice President of Strategy and Customer Requirements, Advanced Development Programs for Lockheed Martin, at a presentation said that the SR72 could not have been made without digital transformation. This seems to indicate that a hypersonic vehicle has been built.

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2018/01/lockheed-may-have-completed-a-prototype-hypersonic-sr72.html

A Bloomberg article on the recent LM comments.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-16/america-s-fastest-spy-plane-may-be-back-and-hypersonic

In particular, I liked this quote from the same O’Banion as I have not seen this mentioned before (but might have missed it)

Quote
“But now we can digitally print that engine with an incredibly sophisticated cooling system integral into the material of the engine itself and have that engine survive for multiple firings for routine operation.” 

It almost sounds like they'll cool the turbine blades, or some pre-cooling system. Am curious whether this is similar to SABRE.

Taking these quotes as a whole it certainly sounds like they may have at the very least built either a technology demonstrator or full prototype.
« Last Edit: 01/17/2018 11:11 PM by Star One »

Offline Asteroza

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #97 on: 01/18/2018 06:25 AM »
That or they at least have a boilerplate version, not flightweight yet, that can be reused without refurbishment...

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #98 on: 01/18/2018 04:03 PM »
That or they at least have a boilerplate version, not flightweight yet, that can be reused without refurbishment...

Seems like there is a roughly a two/three year delay on their stated goals, so reaching point A for example quoted to be achieved in 2020 actually means 2017/2018 etc.

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #99 on: 01/23/2018 12:14 AM »
I came across this

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=19920012274

It's the "Tutorial Session" to the "RBCC Workshop" held in 1992.

Basically it's a brain dump of most of the key players (or their colleagues) who were active in the US hypersonics or high speed combined cycle communities during the 1960's and 1970's done shortly after the end of the NASP programme sunk close to $3Bn in then year dollars.  It's got quite a lot of stuff about the actual making of systems to operate in these environments, and their testing, by people who actually did it.

The stuff about NASP makes particularly amusing reading with various papers "Not ready at time of deadline" and the rest long on goals but pretty short on achievements.

Which is impressive for a programme that spent so much before an independent assessment found there wo many bugs in its business case it should never have been started.  :(
« Last Edit: 01/23/2018 05:57 AM by john smith 19 »
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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #100 on: 01/23/2018 06:51 AM »
I don’t think this has been posted previously on here.

Hypersonic research could lead to future spy drone

Quote
DAYTON — The Air Force Research Laboratory has awarded a $9.8 million contract to the University of Dayton Research Institute to develop materials able to withstand the extremes of hypersonic flight.

http://www.whio.com/news/local-military/hypersonic-research-could-lead-future-spy-drone/rOaqyurXUU0rZ0aM1Aj1xL/

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #101 on: 01/25/2018 06:51 AM »
Hypersonic Race Heats With Boeing Reusable Demonstrator Concept

Quote
Boeing is raising the stakes in the accelerating race for U.S. hypersonic leadership by positioning itself to develop a potential future Mach 5-plus strike-and-reconnaissance aircraft. The move, which was signaled by the unexpected unveiling of a reusable hypersonic demonstrator concept vehicle at an aerospace science and research conference in Florida in early January, directly challenges Lockheed Martin. In 2013, Lockheed revealed plans to develop a Mach 6 successor to the long-retired ...

http://m.aviationweek.com/future-aerospace/hypersonic-race-heats-boeing-reusable-demonstrator-concept

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #102 on: 01/29/2018 07:11 AM »
Chineese resaerch  (suggestion) of new airframe and wing  configuration for hypersonic airplanes: http://www.spacedaily.com/m/reports/A_new_family_of_aerodynamic_configurations_of_hypersonic_airplanes_999.html

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #103 on: 01/30/2018 10:11 PM »
Chineese resaerch  (suggestion) of new airframe and wing  configuration for hypersonic airplanes: http://www.spacedaily.com/m/reports/A_new_family_of_aerodynamic_configurations_of_hypersonic_airplanes_999.html
IIRC the idea of "hypersonic biplanes" was looked at in the 1950's and 60's. AFAIK no looked at the inverse, Merging the two side supports into a central support, like an I beam.

This looks like it really could be a new approach to hypersonic vehicle design.

The joker in the pack is of course how the wing tips respond to hypersonic airflow and how much mass is needed to keep them stiff enough to avoid issues.
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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #104 on: 02/01/2018 08:36 PM »
US Losing Its Advantage in Race for Hypersonic Technology: Selva

Quote
Did the U.S. military miss its window of opportunity to beat out adversaries in hypersonics development?

That depends on what the U.S. chooses to build even as Russia and China are rapidly advancing the technology, according to the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.


"We have lost our technical advantage in hypersonics; we haven't lost the hypersonics fight," Air Force Gen. Paul Selva told reporters Tuesday during a roundtable discussion in Washington, D.C.

"China has made it a national program, so China's willing to spend tens to up to hundreds of billions to solve the problem of hypersonic flight, hypersonic target designation, and then ultimately engagement," he said.

https://www.military.com/defensetech/2018/01/31/us-losing-its-advantage-race-hypersonic-technology-selva.html?ESRC=dod-bz.nl&spMailingID=1222495&spUserID=Mjk3OTgyNTY0MzkS1&spJobID=480019819&spReportId=NDgwMDE5ODE5S0

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #105 on: 02/02/2018 07:55 PM »
US Losing Its Advantage in Race for Hypersonic Technology: Selva

Quote
Did the U.S. military miss its window of opportunity to beat out adversaries in hypersonics development?

That depends on what the U.S. chooses to build even as Russia and China are rapidly advancing the technology, according to the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.


"We have lost our technical advantage in hypersonics; we haven't lost the hypersonics fight," Air Force Gen. Paul Selva told reporters Tuesday during a roundtable discussion in Washington, D.C.

"China has made it a national program, so China's willing to spend tens to up to hundreds of billions to solve the problem of hypersonic flight, hypersonic target designation, and then ultimately engagement," he said.

https://www.military.com/defensetech/2018/01/31/us-losing-its-advantage-race-hypersonic-technology-selva.html?ESRC=dod-bz.nl&spMailingID=1222495&spUserID=Mjk3OTgyNTY0MzkS1&spJobID=480019819&spReportId=NDgwMDE5ODE5S0
This is excellent news.

NASP consumed close to $3Bn in 1992 $. Close to $5.5bn in today's money.  This should sink a good $10Bn at least.
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C Apply So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #106 on: 02/22/2018 07:55 PM »
Pentagon budget 2019: Russian, Chinese hypersonics emerge as clear concern

http://www.janes.com/article/78096/pentagon-budget-2019-russian-chinese-hypersonics-emerge-as-clear-concern

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #107 on: 02/22/2018 08:39 PM »
This is excellent news.

NASP consumed close to $3Bn in 1992 $. Close to $5.5bn in today's money.  This should sink a good $10Bn at least.
Either you have an interesting definition of "excellent news" or my sarcasm detector is malfunctioning again.

I do wonder why they keep trying this while a tech that actually might work (SABRE) seems starved for investment.
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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #108 on: 02/24/2018 09:47 AM »
Either you have an interesting definition of "excellent news" or my sarcasm detector is malfunctioning again.
It's excellent news if you want the Chinese government to waste a very large sum of money on a wild goose chase.
Quote from: Lar

I do wonder why they keep trying this
As Francois Truffaut character in Close Encounters of the Third Kind puts it "It is en affaire sociologique" IOW
A toxic mix of (semi) plausible arguments (that a child can follow), seductive maths and group think.

How could so many learned people be wrong? The answer is the same way the people who studied Phrenology or Eugenics could be.  :(

SCramjet research is like a "Grail quest".
The endlessly long list of hints that maybe will lead to a solution.
The vast riches and glory to the discoverer at the end.
If we just try a little harder. If we just had a little bit faster computers. We are so close. If, if,if.
Add in a few researchers who might not be overly scrupulous in checking their assumptions and an Air Force general with a large budget and keen desire that "Something must be done" and the rest is history.  :(

Then of course there is the huge Kudos of doing something the US has spent (since Johns Hopkins APL work in 1960)  North of $10Bn (in 2018 $) to do and still failed to deliver an operational vehicle with.
The dream that we will be the Wright Brothers successful efforts to the USG's lavishly funded (but failed) efforts to build a "Heavier than air flying machine."

Note that IRL rockets and regular ramjets have got operational flight vehicles up to M5+ for decades and AFAIK no one has really tried to find the upper limit of conventional ramjet action, or even what a viable Mach operating range is. 3 Mach numbers is a "rule of thumb" that does not seem to have a reference basis beyond "After that we have to start to think seriously about the problems."

Hypersonic flight is a challenging field in terms of aerodynamics and structures that can survive prolonged (greater than 15 minutes roughly) without refurbishment at reasonable weight.
OTOH SCramjet development continues to look like a bottomless money pit.

When a SCramjet proponent writing in Aerospace America says essentially "The only way to develop a full size SCramjet aircraft is to do develop a full size SCramjet aircraft,"  because between the uncertainties of the maths driving the CFD simulations and the scale factors when you use models that is the only way to be sure you'll get a working vehicle you have to ask "Why bother?" (with SCramjets). :(
« Last Edit: 02/24/2018 10:05 AM by john smith 19 »
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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #109 on: 03/01/2018 07:42 PM »
Quote
WASHINGTON: The Pentagon will ramp up research on hypersonic weapons with a stunning 136 percent increase in the 2019 budget request. Here’s the breakdown of the $257 million:

$139.4 million, the lion’s share, goes to the Air Force-DARPA collaboration on rocket-propelled hypersonics, Tactical Boost Glide (TBG), which will produce an “operational prototype” by 2023;
$14.3 million goes to Air-Force work on jet-propelled hypersonics, the Hypersonic Air-breathing Weapon Concept (HAWC), which DARPA is hoping the Navy will join.
$50 million goes to a new joint venture with the Army called Operational Fires (OPFIRES), part of the Army’s new emphasis on long-range artillery and missiles; and
$53 million goes to the Advanced Full Range Engine (AFRE) for future hypersonic vehicles.

https://breakingdefense.com/2018/03/dod-boosts-hypersonics-136-in-2019-darpa/

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #110 on: 03/02/2018 08:53 AM »
Hypersonic Weapons Enter Service with Russian Aviation

Quote
Vladimir Puttin, the President of the Russian Republic confirmed today that Russia began deploying new strategic weapons that are virtually immune to enemy missile defense capabilities. These weapons include a hypersonic air-launched surface attack missile and surface-launched weapon, that can be used with a nuclear or conventional warhead. Russian planners believe the new weapons follow innovative designs making them immune to current and future ballistic missile defenses. Representing new weapon categories, both systems are not likely to be covered by the new Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty (START).

http://defense-update.com/20180302_new_russian_strategic_weapons.html

U.S. Hypersonic Weapons ‘Coming’ As Putin Touts Russia’s Lead

Quote
As Russian President Vladimir Putin displayed video of the country’s Kinzhal air-launched hypersonic strike missile in his March 1 state of the union address, Darpa’s director confirmed the U.S. will flight test operational prototypes of a similar weapon in ...

http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/us-hypersonic-weapons-coming-putin-touts-russia-s-lead
« Last Edit: 03/02/2018 10:30 AM by Star One »

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #111 on: 03/02/2018 10:55 AM »
Quote
WASHINGTON: The Pentagon will ramp up research on hypersonic weapons with a stunning 136 percent increase in the 2019 budget request. Here’s the breakdown of the $257 million:

$139.4 million, the lion’s share, goes to the Air Force-DARPA collaboration on rocket-propelled hypersonics, Tactical Boost Glide (TBG), which will produce an “operational prototype” by 2023;
$14.3 million goes to Air-Force work on jet-propelled hypersonics, the Hypersonic Air-breathing Weapon Concept (HAWC), which DARPA is hoping the Navy will join.
$50 million goes to a new joint venture with the Army called Operational Fires (OPFIRES), part of the Army’s new emphasis on long-range artillery and missiles; and
$53 million goes to the Advanced Full Range Engine (AFRE) for future hypersonic vehicles.

https://breakingdefense.com/2018/03/dod-boosts-hypersonics-136-in-2019-darpa/
Good to see the bulk is going on rocket propelled hypersonics, which are known to work, rather than the still highly speculative SCramjet. 
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C Apply So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #112 on: 03/02/2018 11:06 AM »
Quote
WASHINGTON: The Pentagon will ramp up research on hypersonic weapons with a stunning 136 percent increase in the 2019 budget request. Here’s the breakdown of the $257 million:

$139.4 million, the lion’s share, goes to the Air Force-DARPA collaboration on rocket-propelled hypersonics, Tactical Boost Glide (TBG), which will produce an “operational prototype” by 2023;
$14.3 million goes to Air-Force work on jet-propelled hypersonics, the Hypersonic Air-breathing Weapon Concept (HAWC), which DARPA is hoping the Navy will join.
$50 million goes to a new joint venture with the Army called Operational Fires (OPFIRES), part of the Army’s new emphasis on long-range artillery and missiles; and
$53 million goes to the Advanced Full Range Engine (AFRE) for future hypersonic vehicles.

https://breakingdefense.com/2018/03/dod-boosts-hypersonics-136-in-2019-darpa/
Good to see the bulk is going on rocket propelled hypersonics, which are known to work, rather than the still highly speculative SCramjet.

Of course a lot of that funding could be buried in the Black Budget.

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #113 on: 03/03/2018 01:05 PM »
Quote
WASHINGTON: The Pentagon will ramp up research on hypersonic weapons with a stunning 136 percent increase in the 2019 budget request. Here’s the breakdown of the $257 million:

$139.4 million, the lion’s share, goes to the Air Force-DARPA collaboration on rocket-propelled hypersonics, Tactical Boost Glide (TBG), which will produce an “operational prototype” by 2023;
$14.3 million goes to Air-Force work on jet-propelled hypersonics, the Hypersonic Air-breathing Weapon Concept (HAWC), which DARPA is hoping the Navy will join.
$50 million goes to a new joint venture with the Army called Operational Fires (OPFIRES), part of the Army’s new emphasis on long-range artillery and missiles; and
$53 million goes to the Advanced Full Range Engine (AFRE) for future hypersonic vehicles.

https://breakingdefense.com/2018/03/dod-boosts-hypersonics-136-in-2019-darpa/
Good to see the bulk is going on rocket propelled hypersonics, which are known to work, rather than the still highly speculative SCramjet.

Of course a lot of that funding could be buried in the Black Budget.
Anything's possible in the secret budget, because it's well, secret.

Like the "Aurora" successor to the SR71 that was supposed to be flying in the 80's and 90's, perhaps?
Great story.

Pity it didn't actually exist.  :(

There's a reason why the F117 and B2 are sub sonic. A M1+ vehicle that is invisible on infra red is a fantasy.  It will light up the screens on an IR sensor like a Christmas tree, even if it's got an RCS of a small stone. And by now every major power should be familiar with the myth, and reality of stealth. IOW they should all have IR sensors on major air, sea and land vehicles and installations. The only way to not be noticed would be to fly a trajectory like a meteor, and as soon as it got slow enough someone would shoot the "meteor" down. 

As for the Russian reports of a super duper M5 missile, there's a difference between what can be shown on Computer Generated Imagery (nearly anything) and what can be achieved IRL. 
 
It's probably more real that the MHD drive systems Reagan supporters believed had been fitted to Soviet submarines in the Cold War.

That also turned out to be a total fantasy.

BTW the US had made much of the threat of M5 missile but it appears the FSU has had M5 capable missiles since the mid 80's
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300_missile_system

and up to M5.9 in the last decade.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-400_missile_system

So it's not like the US has had no notice of what the FSU is capable of (or anyone else with a big enough rocket attached).
« Last Edit: 03/03/2018 01:43 PM by john smith 19 »
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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #114 on: 03/05/2018 10:29 AM »
Someone in Lockheed has dusted off the RATTLRS model again.

https://mobile.twitter.com/FG_STrim/status/970027897254653952


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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #115 on: 03/26/2018 09:57 AM »
In the current Skylon thread a poster reported a presentation by Mark Wood. This section caught my eye.
Quote
Testbed designs: Slides showed a single-engine testbed looking a bit like a D-21 with a belly-mounted delta and no strakes. Mark confirmed this was the current concept for the test vehicle (though of course subject to change).

Testing timeline (admitted to be aggressive):
2019 - Expected to start seeing HEX spinout developments
2023 - Integrated engine test
2024 - Test vehicle flight

Unless they plan to make the test vehicle expendable (just a single flight to demonstrate the test engine is flight weight) this will be the first reusable hypersonic aircraft since the X-15.

This potentially makes it a very valuable research asset for hypersonics researchers around the globe, depending on what data it's designed to collect and what, where (and even if) it's designed to carry a payload, other than it's built in instruments.

AFAIK the record for hypersonic flight under thrust is the X51's 2013 flight of 210secs at > M5 (with a target of 300secs), and was expendable.

AIUI the key objective for the REL flight vehicle is to prove out the inlet design and (ideally) the full closure and switch over to rocket mode.  In principle this doesn't need a long flight at >M5.

The question is what sort of cruise duration could you pack into a vehicle with a 20 tonne thrust engine, given it will probably need to be able to take off from the ground (which alone would be a significant innovation for this sort of vehicle) as I don't think REL are planning to become an aircraft operator like Orbital with Stargazer. 
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C Apply So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #116 on: 03/26/2018 02:37 PM »
In the current Skylon thread a poster reported a presentation by Mark Wood. This section caught my eye.
Quote
Testbed designs: Slides showed a single-engine testbed looking a bit like a D-21 with a belly-mounted delta and no strakes. Mark confirmed this was the current concept for the test vehicle (though of course subject to change).

Testing timeline (admitted to be aggressive):
2019 - Expected to start seeing HEX spinout developments
2023 - Integrated engine test
2024 - Test vehicle flight

Unless they plan to make the test vehicle expendable (just a single flight to demonstrate the test engine is flight weight) this will be the first reusable hypersonic aircraft since the X-15.

This potentially makes it a very valuable research asset for hypersonics researchers around the globe, depending on what data it's designed to collect and what, where (and even if) it's designed to carry a payload, other than it's built in instruments.

AFAIK the record for hypersonic flight under thrust is the X51's 2013 flight of 210secs at > M5 (with a target of 300secs), and was expendable.

AIUI the key objective for the REL flight vehicle is to prove out the inlet design and (ideally) the full closure and switch over to rocket mode.  In principle this doesn't need a long flight at >M5.

The question is what sort of cruise duration could you pack into a vehicle with a 20 tonne thrust engine, given it will probably need to be able to take off from the ground (which alone would be a significant innovation for this sort of vehicle) as I don't think REL are planning to become an aircraft operator like Orbital with Stargazer.

I can tell you one thing that any vehicle will not be tested here for a whole variety of reasons, it will either be Australia or the US.
« Last Edit: 03/26/2018 02:46 PM by Star One »

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #117 on: 03/26/2018 04:49 PM »
I can tell you one thing that any vehicle will not be tested here for a whole variety of reasons, it will either be Australia or the US.
Not necessarily. There are test ranges in the UK (The one out over Cardogan bay) and the projected Newquay site.

I think the issue would be supporting a remote team. The US is an ITAR accident waiting to happen. There is precedent for this. The former Soviet Union shipped a pair of their space nuclear reactors to the US for testing (IIRC they were not fueled) then the US said they could not be "exported" back to their country of origin.   :(

The last time ITAR was negotiated the UK expected a waiver on ITAR restrictions. Y'know, Americas closest ally and all that?
In fact it got "accelerated" clearance. Which depends on how heavy a work load they have down at the State Department (which has had a few holes in its senior management lately.  :( ).

Keep in mind any flight is likely to be quite short. Depending on direction any take off from Cardogan bay would be out into the Irish Sea or the Atlantic. How many people would notice 15 minutes in the middle of the day?

If flying test runs for other researchers did become a regular occurrence I think they'd like to keep the team close to home for data analysis and vehicle changes, such as installing new test hardware.   
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C Apply So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #118 on: 03/26/2018 05:15 PM »
In the current Skylon thread a poster reported a presentation by Mark Wood. This section caught my eye.
Quote
Testbed designs: Slides showed a single-engine testbed looking a bit like a D-21 with a belly-mounted delta and no strakes. Mark confirmed this was the current concept for the test vehicle (though of course subject to change).

Testing timeline (admitted to be aggressive):
2019 - Expected to start seeing HEX spinout developments
2023 - Integrated engine test
2024 - Test vehicle flight

Unless they plan to make the test vehicle expendable (just a single flight to demonstrate the test engine is flight weight) this will be the first reusable hypersonic aircraft since the X-15.

This potentially makes it a very valuable research asset for hypersonics researchers around the globe, depending on what data it's designed to collect and what, where (and even if) it's designed to carry a payload, other than it's built in instruments.

AIUI the key objective for the REL flight vehicle is to prove out the inlet design and (ideally) the full closure AFAIK the record for hypersonic flight under thrust is the X51's 2013 flight of 210secs at > M5 (with a target of 300secs), and was expendable.

and switch over to rocket mode.  In principle this doesn't need a long flight at >M5.

The question is what sort of cruise duration could you pack into a vehicle with a 20 tonne thrust engine, given it will probably need to be able to take off from the ground (which alone would be a significant innovation for this sort of vehicle) as I don't think REL are planning to become an aircraft operator like Orbital with Stargazer.
Your 210 second duration spec. made me instantly think of the MAch 6+ X-15.  Do you happen to know how long the X-15s engines fired for?

On one hand, 300 seconds seems like a long time to burn an engine of this type.  Then I think of just how long the RS25/SSMEs had to burn for, approx. 501-513 seconds during nominal missions.

Its amazing what the propulsion systems of vehicles like these can do, in the environments that they must work in.
 
During the Abort To Orbit, 2 SSMEs had to fire for over 9 minutes 41 seconds or 581 seconds  during the ascent of STS-51F ATO.
Paul

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #119 on: 03/26/2018 06:29 PM »
Your 210 second duration spec. made me instantly think of the MAch 6+ X-15.  Do you happen to know how long the X-15s engines fired for?

On one hand, 300 seconds seems like a long time to burn an engine of this type.  Then I think of just how long the RS25/SSMEs had to burn for, approx. 501-513 seconds during nominal missions.

Its amazing what the propulsion systems of vehicles like these can do, in the environments that they must work in.
 
During the Abort To Orbit, 2 SSMEs had to fire for over 9 minutes 41 seconds or 581 seconds  during the ascent of STS-51F ATO.
Googling "how long did the engies for the X15 fire" gives this page

https://history.nasa.gov/SP-60/ch-4.html
Quote
Long before the first flight, X-15 pilots had become familiar with the demands for precise control, especially during the first 85 seconds - the powered phase, which establishes conditions for the entire flight
IIRC full X-15 flights ran 12-15 minutes.
« Last Edit: 03/26/2018 06:31 PM by john smith 19 »
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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #120 on: 03/27/2018 11:29 AM »
Quote
It's excellent news if you want the Chinese government to waste a very large sum of money on a wild goose chase.
Or blaze the trail, so we can spend money chasing proven technology, instead of burn it proving it can even work. Of course Chinese nationalists will crow about it forever, but the Chinese have copied everything from the West for a centuries, so a bit of turnabout would be welcome.

Quote
How could so many learned people be wrong? The answer is the same way the people who studied Phrenology or Eugenics could be.  :(

There's nothing wrong with eugenics, or its study.

Quote
[Magnetohydrodynamic propulsion] also turned out to be a total fantasy.

Great movie though. :)
« Last Edit: 03/27/2018 11:30 AM by JQP »

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #121 on: 03/27/2018 08:32 PM »
Pentagon advisory panel calls for establishment of near-term hypersonic defense capability


Quote
An influential Pentagon advisory board has recommended the U.S. military quickly develop and field an interim capability to defeat hypersonic weapon threats, launching a program to develop a defensive capability against a new-class of ultra-high-speed strike systems that are the focus of an race between Washington, Beijing and Moscow.

Missile Defense Agency Director Lt. Gen. Sam Greaves previewed findings of the not-yet-public Defense Science Board's 2017 summer study on hypersonic strike weapons in written testimony prepared for the Senate Armed Services strategic forces subcommittee on March 21.

Greaves said the Pentagon's $120 million request in fiscal year 2019 to advance the new-start hypersonic defense program MDA launched in FY-18 at congressional direction carries out the DSB's advice.

"This effort will execute the Defense Science Board’s recommendations to develop and deliver a set of materiel solutions to address and defeat hypersonic threats informed by a set of near-term technology demonstrations," Greaves wrote.


The DSB study on Countering Anti-Access Systems With Longer Range and Standoff Capabilities is not yet public; an unclassified summary of the final report is expected as soon as April, according to Pentagon spokeswoman Lt. Col. Michelle Baldanza.

Last summer, the Defense Intelligence Ballistic Missile Analysis Committee in collaboration with the Air Force's National Air and Space Intelligence Center identified hypersonic glide vehicles -- being developed by Russia and China to penetrate U.S. ballistic missile defenses -- as an "emerging threat." For a decade, the U.S. military has been developing technologies to support an intermediate-range hypersonic strike weapon; the Pentagon plans to identify a formal acquisition program for an offensive capability in 2020.

Meantime, MDA -- established in 2004 to focus primarily on ballistic and cruise missile threats -- is now leading the new effort to develop a fledgling program to counter hypersonic boost glide threats. Intercontinental ballistic missiles move at hypersonic speeds -- 20 times the speed of sound -- on trajectories that are predictable.

Hypersonic boost glide weapons fly a different path. After being lifted by rocket near the edge of the atmosphere, the experimental payload separates from its booster rocket near space and flies a flatter, non-ballistic trajectory, gliding unpowered at speeds of at least Mach 5 to its destination. Their ability to maneuver gives this potential new class of weapons the ability to penetrate current air defenses.

The new hypersonic defense program, according to Greaves, consists of a number of efforts, including systems engineering and efforts to "identify and mature the full kill-chain technology" to counter hypersonic threats.  MDA is looking for "target-of-opportunity events" and execute near-term, "space-sensor technology and multidomain command-and-control capability upgrades to address defense from hypersonic threats."

"An integrated set of enhancements will provide incremental capability measured by progress and knowledge points in the following areas: establishment of systems engineering needs and requirements to identify alternative material solutions; execution of a series of sensor technology demonstrations; modification of existing BMDS sensors and the C2BMC element for hypersonic threats; and definition of weapon concepts and investments in key technologies to enable a broad set of solutions, including kinetic and non-kinetic means," according to Greaves.

MDA is currently conducting an analysis of alternatives to explore potential materiel solutions for a hypersonic defense capability. That analysis, often a precursor to a major weapons program, is running behind schedule.

The FY-18 omnibus appropriations act cut MDA's $75 million request to launch the hypersonic defense program to $60 million, peeling back $15 million because the funding was "Early to need pending completion of analysis of alternatives." The FY-18 budget request anticipated the AOA being complete this spring; the FY-19 budget request anticipates the AOA being complete this summer.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #122 on: 03/28/2018 12:44 PM »
To put a little more detail on the idea of a SABRE powered hypersonic research vehicle I looked up the Maximum Takeoff Weights of various aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliners_by_maximum_takeoff_weight

The SEI study reckoned you'd need a T/W of 0.7 to get to M8 for their TSTO so a 20tonne thrust engine that gives about 28 tonnes.

These are all in the range 23-30 tonnes. The Dash_8 is just about at the 28t mark.  The Vickers Viscout around 30tonnes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_CRJ200
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Dash_8
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_Viscount

People will think of the D21 reconnaissance drone, but this was about 5tonnes, while the SRB needed to launch it from the B52 was even heavier (coincidentally it burned for about the same time, 85secs, as the main X-15 engine), more than doubling the package size.

OTOH the little known Tupolev Tu 123
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-123
Was about 35t and designed to cruise around M3 using the expendable version of the Tumansky R15 turbojet which in full after burner had about a T/W of 4.16:1.
The Tu-123 Wiki article uses the afterburner thrust level, suggested it was on permanent AB after launch.
Note that unlike D21 it was designed to be ground launched with a RATO pack. The whole vehicle had a payload mass fraction of about 3 although RATO mass is not listed.
The X-15 itself weighed 15420Kg yet needed a rocket thrust 2.07x that to get to test speed, probably due to its (by air breathing standards) very poor Isp.

Which I think suggests there are reasons to believe you could build a useful ground launched hypersonic test vehicle around the SABRE test engine.
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C Apply So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline Hog

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #123 on: 03/28/2018 03:28 PM »
D-21 detaching from M-21



THE M-21 accident which brought M-21 launching D-21's to an end and D-21 into B-52 SRB usage as mentioned above
Paul

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #124 on: 03/29/2018 07:38 AM »
D-21 detaching from M-21


THE M-21 accident which brought M-21 launching D-21's to an end and D-21 into B-52 SRB usage as mentioned above
So the moral of this story is what exactly?

Don't launch from an aircraft with inward canted tails?

Don't launch from an aircraft with inward canted tails in level flight (the earlier ones had been with the SR71 flying in an outside loop, with the D21 on the outer face).

IIRC no D21 mission, even the ones from the Stratofortress, were successful. Given their nature I would guess telemetry able to diagnose what went wrong, was limited.
OTOH most of the 199 X15 missions flown were successful, suggesting reusability is pretty useful for finding, and fixing, bugs in the basic system.

AFAIK the Tu-123 did not any launch issues, but it's cost was prohibitive to the cash strapped Soviet Union of the time. That suggests ground launch can be less problematical.
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C Apply So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #125 on: 03/29/2018 12:21 PM »
D-21 detaching from M-21


THE M-21 accident which brought M-21 launching D-21's to an end and D-21 into B-52 SRB usage as mentioned above
So the moral of this story is what exactly?

Don't launch from an aircraft with inward canted tails?

Don't launch from an aircraft with inward canted tails in level flight (the earlier ones had been with the SR71 flying in an outside loop, with the D21 on the outer face).

IIRC no D21 mission, even the ones from the Stratofortress, were successful. Given their nature I would guess telemetry able to diagnose what went wrong, was limited.
OTOH most of the 199 X15 missions flown were successful, suggesting reusability is pretty useful for finding, and fixing, bugs in the basic system.

AFAIK the Tu-123 did not any launch issues, but it's cost was prohibitive to the cash strapped Soviet Union of the time. That suggests ground launch can be less problematical.
I wasn't trying to imply any moral to any story, just adding some "colour" to a thread using some fine examples of the technological "intestinal fortitude" as someone had mentioned the D-21 earlier.
Paul

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #126 on: 03/29/2018 04:04 PM »
I wasn't trying to imply any moral to any story, just adding some "colour" to a thread using some fine examples of the technological "intestinal fortitude" as someone had mentioned the D-21 earlier.
Part of the reason for the D21 being (relatively) cheap was (AFAIK) a fixed geometry vehicle. Prefectly reasonable for an operational programme, which the M21/D21 system was meant to be.

For a research programme you probably want something a bit more flexible.

Of course if people think they already know all they need to know about hypersonic flight then they can go straight to designing the equipment directly.

The fact no one has fielded an operational system in this area (despite M21/D21 expecting to go to such a system at M3 half a century ago) suggests there are still pretty big gaps in the basic knowledge of extended flight at M5+ speeds
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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #128 on: 04/05/2018 07:23 AM »
Hypersonic Weapons Explainer

https://carnegieendowment.org/2018/04/02/hypersonic-weapons-explainer-pub-75957
That sounded remarkably balanced.

Bottom line. Russia and China can already deliver nuclear weapons at M12+ (by ICBM). It's precision that allows the use of non nuclear payloads.

I especially like the part about the DoD having to decide why they need a hypersonic programme before spending a shed load of cash on it.
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C Apply So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #129 on: 04/05/2018 12:28 PM »
Air Force looking to additive manufacturing to expand hypersonic flight capabilities

Quote
ARNOLD AIR FORCE BASE, Tenn. – The Air Force is testing materials produced through ceramic additive manufacturing to advance their potential future use in hypersonic flight vehicles.

Scientists with the Air Force Research Laboratory Aerospace Systems Directorate recently entered into a Cooperative Research and Development – Material Transfer Agreement with HRL Laboratories to test additively manufactured silicon oxycarbide (SiOC) materials.The geometric complexity of components that can be produced through additive manufacturing in conjunction with the refractory nature of ceramics holds enormous potential for a variety of future Air Force applications. One such possible application is hypersonic flight, which exposes materials to extreme environments including high temperatures.

The potential of the HRL-produced materials for demanding Air Force applications became apparent while Aerospace Systems Directorate scientists were searching for new thermocouple radiation shields. The SiOC materials were produced through an additive manufacturing process utilizing a pre-ceramic resin. Following part fabrication, the pre-ceramic resin was heat treated to convert the component to a fully ceramic state. AFRL scientists became interested in HRL’s novel process taking advantage of state-of-the-art 3D printing capabilities and pre-ceramic resin chemistry as well as the possible performance of the final SiOC materials at high temperatures.

“If a material can withstand those temperatures – roughly 3,200 degrees Fahrenheit – it could be used for hypersonic aircraft engine components like struts or flame holders,” said Jamie Szmodis, a hypersonic research engineer with the Aerospace Systems Directorate.

Kudos to Wright-Patterson AFB for having a page that retains basic functionality sans Javascript, and offers a simple hyperlink to a printer-friendly version. I hope someone there shows NASA how that's done...
« Last Edit: 04/05/2018 12:30 PM by JQP »

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #130 on: 04/05/2018 12:57 PM »
Hypersonic Weapons Explainer

https://carnegieendowment.org/2018/04/02/hypersonic-weapons-explainer-pub-75957
That sounded remarkably balanced.

Bottom line. Russia and China can already deliver nuclear weapons at M12+ (by ICBM). It's precision that allows the use of non nuclear payloads.

I especially like the part about the DoD having to decide why they need a hypersonic programme before spending a shed load of cash on it.

I expect if asked their justification would be because other countries are developing them, seems to be the way the argument is going.

Offline Katana

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #131 on: 04/09/2018 07:23 PM »
Either you have an interesting definition of "excellent news" or my sarcasm detector is malfunctioning again.
It's excellent news if you want the Chinese government to waste a very large sum of money on a wild goose chase.
Quote from: Lar

I do wonder why they keep trying this
As Francois Truffaut character in Close Encounters of the Third Kind puts it "It is en affaire sociologique" IOW
A toxic mix of (semi) plausible arguments (that a child can follow), seductive maths and group think.

How could so many learned people be wrong? The answer is the same way the people who studied Phrenology or Eugenics could be.  :(

SCramjet research is like a "Grail quest".
The endlessly long list of hints that maybe will lead to a solution.
The vast riches and glory to the discoverer at the end.
If we just try a little harder. If we just had a little bit faster computers. We are so close. If, if,if.
Add in a few researchers who might not be overly scrupulous in checking their assumptions and an Air Force general with a large budget and keen desire that "Something must be done" and the rest is history.  :(

Then of course there is the huge Kudos of doing something the US has spent (since Johns Hopkins APL work in 1960)  North of $10Bn (in 2018 $) to do and still failed to deliver an operational vehicle with.
The dream that we will be the Wright Brothers successful efforts to the USG's lavishly funded (but failed) efforts to build a "Heavier than air flying machine."

Note that IRL rockets and regular ramjets have got operational flight vehicles up to M5+ for decades and AFAIK no one has really tried to find the upper limit of conventional ramjet action, or even what a viable Mach operating range is. 3 Mach numbers is a "rule of thumb" that does not seem to have a reference basis beyond "After that we have to start to think seriously about the problems."

Hypersonic flight is a challenging field in terms of aerodynamics and structures that can survive prolonged (greater than 15 minutes roughly) without refurbishment at reasonable weight.
OTOH SCramjet development continues to look like a bottomless money pit.

When a SCramjet proponent writing in Aerospace America says essentially "The only way to develop a full size SCramjet aircraft is to do develop a full size SCramjet aircraft,"  because between the uncertainties of the maths driving the CFD simulations and the scale factors when you use models that is the only way to be sure you'll get a working vehicle you have to ask "Why bother?" (with SCramjets). :(
LACE / precooled concepts also have long, unsuccessful and costly history similar to scramjet, since HOTOL and RB525. Sabre may be as successful as X-43, but Skylon could come nowhere near BFR, by payload ability or by project TRL.

The sadness of ramjet means that no CUSTOMER really NEEDS hypersonics at M5+.  Boasting new types of engines for investment is another "business model".

Navaho got wiped out by ICBM in 1958. Presumeably all airbreathing hypersonics would be wipe out if BFR becomes operational and USAF buy a dozen as reuseable ICBM.

Russia and China are also nowhere near to copy BFR, though they would struggle for it at enormous cost even if USAF does NOT buy it. (See the neighbor thread how Russians got horrified of Shuttle).
« Last Edit: 04/09/2018 07:29 PM by Katana »

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #132 on: 04/10/2018 06:53 AM »
LACE / precooled concepts also have long, unsuccessful and costly history similar to scramjet, since HOTOL and RB525.
LACE certainly was. By US standards HOTOL and the RB525 were accounting errors, literally 0.1% of NASP (0.4% in then year dollars), and NASP is still just a fraction of what the US has spent chasing the SCramjet dream.

Quote from: Katana
Sabre may be as successful as X-43, but Skylon could come nowhere near BFR, by payload ability or by project TRL.
Is this really the place you want to have that conversation?
Quote from: Katana
The sadness of ramjet means that no CUSTOMER really NEEDS hypersonics at M5+.  Boasting new types of engines for investment is another "business model".
Well passengers might like to chop the journey time from London to Sydney non stop from 17 hours to
less than 4 hours.
Quote from: Katana
Navaho got wiped out by ICBM in 1958. Presumeably all airbreathing hypersonics would be wipe out if BFR becomes operational and USAF buy a dozen as reuseable ICBM.
Navaho was M3 and you really have no idea how the launch market works do you?
But given BFR is basically a giant ICBM it should surprise no one it can be turned into one quite easily.

Quote from: Katana
Russia and China are also nowhere near to copy BFR, though they would struggle for it at enormous cost even if USAF does NOT buy it. (See the neighbor thread how Russians got horrified of Shuttle).
Funny how Russian and Chinese prowess in hypersonics goes up and down to suit the programme being funded isn't it?

Some of the programmes that drove the design choices for Shuttle were militarily insane. :(
It's (probably) true neither Russia nor China could build a vehicle to match BFR.

But they can definitely build the small nuclear weapons they could launch in barrage to fry anyone that comes over their territory and BFS is very large relative to an ICBM warhead.

The Cold War ended in 1989. Let it go.
« Last Edit: 04/10/2018 06:21 PM by john smith 19 »
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C Apply So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline Katana

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #133 on: 04/10/2018 01:00 PM »
Hypersonic aircraft market is different to launcher market. Navaho could only be capable of M3, but M3 is already "hyper" enough for aircrafts in early 1950s, many years before SR71 and Concorde.

Passengers always want to travel at M3 between continents since then, but they don't need it: none could afford it (Remember the failed M3+ Boeing 2707). How could they afford M4~5 or "real hypersonics"?

Airliner service is an extremely hash low cost market.

Ironically, almost all hypersonic projects ongoing in this thread are sliding into military, including SABRE and Skylon. Hard to imagine BFR as a low cost hypersonic exception that stays civil forever.

One probable reason:
Payload cost in $/kg of F-16 and B-52 lies between the $/kg of ICBM or launcher, and $/kg of passenger airliners. Getting down (in cost) from launcher market to airliner market would inevitably cross the regime of fighters and bombers, much earlier than finally reaching airliner market.

 USAF have talked about fitting ICBM with non nuclear tips, similar concept of HTV and AHW, though all too expensive for their purpose.
https://gizmodo.com/5518192/non-nuclear-us-icbm-can-strike-iran-in-30-minutes

It's wise for America NOT to waste too much money on HTV and AHW similar to Russian and Chinese HGV.

But BFR may solve the cost problem. "ICBM" as cost effective as F-16 or B-52 could be well suited for conventional warfare.

And it may become best chance for America to win the "loosing" hypersonic race against Russia and China.
« Last Edit: 04/10/2018 01:55 PM by Katana »

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #134 on: 04/10/2018 06:40 PM »
Hypersonic aircraft market is different to launcher market. Navaho could only be capable of M3, but M3 is already "hyper" enough for aircrafts in early 1950s, many years before SR71 and Concorde.
Not really. A12 was already being thought about (I think Lockheed reckoned the U2 had maybe a 3 year life expectancy).
Quote from: Katana
Passengers always want to travel at M3 between continents since then, but they don't need it: none could afford it (Remember the failed M3+ Boeing 2707). How could they afford M4~5 or "real hypersonics"?
No. Because it never flew. Turns out building the biggest swing wing aircraft ever built in Titanium was too tough.
I do remember Concord flying for 30 years with a near perfect safety record and people being able to have breakfast in London, lunch in New York and dinner in London. Concorde's biggest mistake was in fact the 2707's only really good point. It was close to being big enough to being fully economically viable. AFAIK every study since by Boeing or Airbus has reckoned 300 passengers is the minimum size you need for this. It's not even clear if they had managed to solve the "super cruise" problem, which Concorde had.
Quote from: Katana
Airliner service is an extremely hash low cost market.
True. Practically because none can offer more speed. AFAIK no one ever thought SST would be "mass market."  It's a premium service at a premium price. As the Concorde operations division found most passengers did not know what their ticket cost (so they asked them what they thought it cost and increased the actual price to what most of their passengers thought they were already paying)
Quote from: Katana
Ironically, almost all hypersonic projects ongoing in this thread are sliding into military, including SABRE and Skylon. Hard to imagine BFR as a low cost hypersonic exception that stays civil forever.

One probable reason:
Payload cost in $/kg of F-16 and B-52 lies between the $/kg of ICBM or launcher, and $/kg of passenger airliners. Getting down (in cost) from launcher market to airliner market would inevitably cross the regime of fighters and bombers, much earlier than finally reaching airliner market.

 USAF have talked about fitting ICBM with non nuclear tips, similar concept of HTV and AHW, though all too expensive for their purpose.
https://gizmodo.com/5518192/non-nuclear-us-icbm-can-strike-iran-in-30-minutes

It's wise for America NOT to waste too much money on HTV and AHW similar to Russian and Chinese HGV.

But BFR may solve the cost problem. "ICBM" as cost effective as F-16 or B-52 could be well suited for conventional warfare.

And it may become best chance for America to win the "loosing" hypersonic race against Russia and China.
And yet in another thread you advocate selling BFR (well actually BFR services since LV mfgs don't sell vehicles, they basically sell tickets to ride their vehicle, although it's more like a lottery, given flight safety records) as an orbital weapons delivery system.

So what is it? Orbit capable systems or hypersonic systems, or just whatever has the biggest funding available?

« Last Edit: 04/10/2018 06:45 PM by john smith 19 »
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C Apply So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #135 on: 04/11/2018 04:49 AM »
For SST, cost and size (=initial cost) is hash.
For hypersonic airliner, safety becomes more hash.

M2+ aircraft were conventional for 50 years. But hypersonic manned (X-15) / suborbital tourism (SS2) vehicles remained dangerous vehicles flying by test pilots up to now. Lethal casualty rate stays at best 1/100, same to orbital flight, 5~6 magnitudes more dangerous than airliner.

SS2 claimed to be "more safe", but have taken more lives than X-15 while delayed for nearly 10 years, not hypersonic, and incapable of P2P transport.

"Hypersonic P2P transportation" of passengers remains a distant dream up to now, but it's an EXISTING FACT that those projects are shifting to "hypersonic P2P transportation" of weapons, except BFR.

Of course BFR could still stay civil, if stay in the orbital launcher market and stay away from "hypersonic P2P transportation" of anything.
« Last Edit: 04/11/2018 04:55 AM by Katana »

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #136 on: 04/11/2018 06:54 PM »
For SST, cost and size (=initial cost) is hash.
For hypersonic airliner, safety becomes more hash.
I'm not really sure what you mean by this.
Concorde flew for 27 years with no crashes prior to the Air France disaster, when it was grossly overloaded.
Quote from: Katana
M2+ aircraft were conventional for 50 years. But hypersonic manned (X-15) / suborbital tourism (SS2) vehicles remained dangerous vehicles flying by test pilots up to now. Lethal casualty rate stays at best 1/100, same to orbital flight, 5~6 magnitudes more dangerous than airliner.
Maybe because one was a test aircraft whose mission was to find the problems of hypersonic flight and the other was in its test phase prior to being declared fit for service? In the case of SS2 that was due to a frankly bizzare  decision to have no safety interlock on a key flight control.
Quote from: Katana
SS2 claimed to be "more safe", but have taken more lives than X-15 while delayed for nearly 10 years, not hypersonic, and incapable of P2P transport.
If not hypersonic why are you even mentioning it?
Quote from: Katana
"Hypersonic P2P transportation" of passengers remains a distant dream up to now, but it's an EXISTING FACT that those projects are shifting to "hypersonic P2P transportation" of weapons, except BFR.
In fact most hypersonic projects have been military funded and are for weapons research already.
Quote from: Katana
Of course BFR could still stay civil, if stay in the orbital launcher market and stay away from "hypersonic P2P transportation" of anything.
Personally I think you could take the Concorde ticket prices, adjust for inflation, double that (implying M4 or better, not necessarily hypersonic, but damm fast) and you'd have a pretty healthy market.

The fact Concorde did make a profit for its operators suggests there is a strong market for people who want to go from A to B much faster than M0.95. The problem is how to do develop it profitably.

I don't doubt that a service at > M1 can make a profit. I'm rather more doubtful about what architectures will make that work.
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Offline Katana

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #137 on: 04/12/2018 04:56 AM »
To go M4+ with 300 passengers and fly everyday for 20 years, conventional aircraft architecture with turboramjet engine (turbofan mods) still applys.

Modern turbofan mods should provide much better performance than J58, which is modified from a single shaft turbojet.

Critical architecture choice maybe the airframe material, nickel alloy / titanium alloy (simplified Skylon? rebirth of 2707?) or composite (special high temp resin CFRP? C-C?)

BTW, going beyond M5 (up to M25 of BFR) would have insignificant benefit compared to M4+, since the time cost for 12000km is already 3~4 hours at M4. If going faster, land traffic and waiting time becomes significant, especially when available flights are not as frequent as typical airliner.
« Last Edit: 04/12/2018 05:42 AM by Katana »

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #138 on: 04/12/2018 08:11 AM »
To go M4+ with 300 passengers and fly everyday for 20 years, conventional aircraft architecture with turboramjet engine (turbofan mods) still applys.
In 1972 maybe.   :( When the base price of oil per barrel quadrupled over night that was no longer viable.

What people forget about Concorde was that it cruised at M2 without using afterburner. Getting twice the thrust for 3x the fuel consumption is not a viable strategy for commercial airliners.
Quote from: Katana
Modern turbofan mods should provide much better performance than J58, which is modified from a single shaft turbojet.
Not really. The issue is frontal surface area and the heat release when air is slowed by so much. There's a reason why there's a precooler in the front of the SABRE compressor.
Quote from: Katana
Critical architecture choice maybe the airframe material, nickel alloy / titanium alloy (simplified Skylon? rebirth of 2707?) or composite (special high temp resin CFRP? C-C?)
I was actually thinking more in terms of the difference between a conventional "single stage" aircraft and Musks BFR for P2P use.  :(
But designing a fuselage and wing structure that can survive prolonged M5 heating (even at very high altitude) is not a trivial issue.
Quote from: Katana
BTW, going beyond M5 (up to M25 of BFR) would have insignificant benefit compared to M4+, since the time cost for 12000km is already 3~4 hours at M4. If going faster, land traffic and waiting time becomes significant, especially when available flights are not as frequent as typical airliner.
Actually the EU target for LAPCAT was M8, which the Germans attempted with a Kerosene SCramjet. Despite the theoretical benefits of the much denser fuel they still couldn't make the design close with the range necessary to avoid overflying built up areas.
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Online docmordrid

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #139 on: 04/12/2018 03:14 PM »
>
The Cold War ended in 1989. Let it go.

In case you haven't noticed, Cold War II started on March 4, 2012 with Putin's reboot.
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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #140 on: 04/12/2018 06:39 PM »
>
The Cold War ended in 1989. Let it go.

In case you haven't noticed, Cold War II started on March 4, 2012 with Putin's reboot.
Which is OT for this thread.

More relevant would be the fact that Russia (and its predecessor states) has had operational M5 (and M5+) capable long range missiles since the mid 90's at least.

Despite this the US military has still not been able to build a strong enough case to fund an operational vehicle. USN has fielded previous long rang ramjet missiles (some with long operating lives) since the late 50's.  Likewise some experimental US missiles with fixed inlets have hit M5+.
But as long as the US remains obsessed with SCramjets being the only way to do this I don't expect anything much to happen.
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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #141 on: 04/12/2018 06:48 PM »


>
The Cold War ended in 1989. Let it go.

In case you haven't noticed, Cold War II started on March 4, 2012 with Putin's reboot.
Which is OT for this thread.

More relevant would be the fact that Russia (and its predecessor states) has had operational M5 (and M5+) capable long range missiles since the mid 90's at least.

Despite this the US military has still not been able to build a strong enough case to fund an operational vehicle. USN has fielded previous long rang ramjet missiles (some with long operating lives) since the late 50's.  Likewise some experimental US missiles with fixed inlets have hit M5+.

It's tough to make a business case for M5-ish missiles when other, cheaper, missiles can go up to M12 with high accuracy. Not to mention Russia shredding the IRBM treaty with some of those birds.
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Offline Katana

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #142 on: 04/12/2018 07:56 PM »
Prolonged M4 heating remains acceptable to titanium airframe (to withstand the total temperature in thermal equilibrium), prolonged M5 heating isn't.

Engines are less problematic, J58 in bypass ramjet mode is already a "turbofan", while modern turbofans are built with superalloys much better than J58.

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #143 on: 04/12/2018 11:34 PM »
Prolonged M4 heating remains acceptable to titanium airframe (to withstand the total temperature in thermal equilibrium), prolonged M5 heating isn't.
That's bad news for anyone who wants to build a M5 aircraft isn't it?
Quote from: Katana
Engines are less problematic, J58 in bypass ramjet mode is already a "turbofan", while modern turbofans are built with superalloys much better than J58.
No. the J58 (including all the hardware inside the nacelle) is a turboramjet
I'd agree the SoA in turbine alloys has moved on a lot  in 6 decades. The trouble is no one builds big pure turbojets anymore.  The best you can get are low BPR turbofans, which started coming in with the F111 and B1 bombers. those bigger fans are designed to cope with a much cooler airflow. But once you start to speed up they get hit by very hot flow, at which point engine efficiency goes through the floor.

At about M2.2 you're starting to look at some kind of fluid injection ahead of the engine, or some kind of precooler. "Peace Jack" reckoned you could go to M3 without a ramjet in "Extended dashes" with water spray in the inlet. The DARPA MIPCC programme had HMX propose liquid air injection could be good to M5.

The challenge remains avoiding after burner level fuel consumption.
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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #144 on: 04/12/2018 11:35 PM »
It's tough to make a business case for M5-ish missiles when other, cheaper, missiles can go up to M12 with high accuracy. Not to mention Russia shredding the IRBM treaty with some of those birds.
Then perhaps the US should bite the bullet and just accept if they want a fast missile they should stick it on top of a really big rocket, instead of betting on the SCramjet?
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Offline Katana

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #145 on: 04/13/2018 05:48 AM »
J58 without nacelle is a "leaky turbojet" which mimics turbofan by discharging air from comperssor.

Quite controversial, turbofans behave better than turbojets at M3.

D-30F6 of Mig31 is modified from high bypass civil version D-30, bypass ratio is reduced but yet higher than typical military low bypass turbofans.

At M2~M3, the core runs at idle speed, and the afterburner feds air mainly from large bypass duct. This solved overheating problem in R-15 turbojet of MIG25.

Imagine a civilian high bypass turbofan between shock cone inlet (which reduces air to subsonic) and gigantic afterburner, the whole system as an enormous turboramjet.

At M3 the core fuel supply shuts down, with low compression ratio and low heating in free rotation, drag of fan blades are neglegible compared to high compression of inlet.

Though at M1~2 the gigantic afterburner would be extremely fuel consuming.
« Last Edit: 04/13/2018 07:17 AM by Katana »

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #146 on: 04/13/2018 06:28 AM »
It's tough to make a business case for M5-ish missiles when other, cheaper, missiles can go up to M12 with high accuracy. Not to mention Russia shredding the IRBM treaty with some of those birds.
Then perhaps the US should bite the bullet and just accept if they want a fast missile they should stick it on top of a really big rocket, instead of betting on the SCramjet?
Gliding RVs have been successfully tested by USAF in 1960s.

But rocket boosted non nuclear fast missiles are too expensive to be operational up to now. Unless Russian shoots down all Tomahawks and SDBs in Syria tomorrow.

Russia and China develop "operational fast missiles" since they would never fight with them.

For scramjet, NOT developing them is a bet for US, since competitors MAY success on it and threat US, by some unknown factor.

The term "hypersonic vehicles" virtually means "technological backup", either scramjet or gliding RV, either weapon or SST.

Shuttles are hypersonic (even with wings), but nobody call them this way. It's interesting to see how BFR/BFS would fit in these names and applications.
« Last Edit: 04/13/2018 07:05 AM by Katana »

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #147 on: 04/13/2018 06:57 AM »
J58 without nacelle is a "leaky turbojet" which mimics turbofan by discharging air from comperssor.
Strictly speaking no jet engine operates "naked." They are all inside a nacelle or a fuselage.
Quote from: Katana
Quite controversial, turbofans behave better than turbojets at M3.

D-30F6 of Mig31 is modified from high bypass civil version D-30, bypass ratio is reduced but yet higher than typical military low bypass turbofans.

At M2~M3, the core runs at idle speed, and the afterburner feds air mainly from large bypass duct. This solved overheating problem in R-15 turbojet of MIG25.
AIUI this was suggested in the US for their SST programme in the late 60's/early 70's under the name "fan burning." The issue remains, the higher the airflow speed you're looking to decellerate from the hotter that flow will be. Once you get to M5 that's still not enough and you're probably looking at some kind of liquid injection, or you go with the US response of a SCramjet. 
Quote from: Katana
Imagine a civilian high bypass turbofan between shock cone inlet (which reduces air to subsonic) and gigantic afterburner, the whole system as an enormous turboramjet.

At M3 the core fuel supply shuts down, with low compression ratio and low heating in free rotation, drag of fan blades are neglegible compared to high compression of inlet.

Though at M1~2 the gigantic afterburner would be extremely fuel consuming.
Why imagine? Look up the engine for the Boeing 2707 design.
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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #148 on: 04/13/2018 07:07 AM »
Gliding RVs have been successfully tested by USAF in 1960s.

But rocket boosted non nuclear fast missiles are too expensive to be operational up to now. Unless Russian shoots down all Tomahawks and SDBs in Syria tomorrow.

Russia and China develop "operational fast missiles" since they would never fight with them.
Depends what range and speed you're looking at.
Quote from: Katana
The term "hypersonic vehicles" virtually means "technological backup", either SCramjet or gliding RV, either weapon or SST.

Shuttles are hypersonic (even with wings), but nobody call them this way. It's interesting to see how BFR/BFS would fit in these names and applications.
No. In aeronautics the modern meaning of "hypersonic" is pretty specific. Flight at (or above) Mach 5.

The X-15 and Shuttle were both hypersonic. Artillery shells can be M3 "vehicles" (and the Germans developed a M3 liquid fueled ramjet type in WWII, which I think the Russians may have acquired).
And of course ICBM's are "hypersonic" as well, although they are generally more referred to as "ballistic" unless they have guidance fins, when they are a "maneuvering"

The nomenclature is not me being pedantic. It does actually mean something specific.

The problem is not the US couldn't field a M5 air breathing missile. It's their absolute insistence that only an SCramjet can deliver the fuel economy (which I'm doubtful about). Also AFAIK test SCramjets to date have very bad T/W ratios (around 2:1). The J58 in its nacelle could do about 2.25:1 while operating from 0 speed. That "0 speed" ability makes quite a difference in a practical aircraft.
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Offline Katana

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #149 on: 04/13/2018 07:38 AM »
J58 without nacelle is a "leaky turbojet" which mimics turbofan by discharging air from comperssor.
Strictly speaking no jet engine operates "naked." They are all inside a nacelle or a fuselage.
Quote from: Katana
Quite controversial, turbofans behave better than turbojets at M3.

D-30F6 of Mig31 is modified from high bypass civil version D-30, bypass ratio is reduced but yet higher than typical military low bypass turbofans.

At M2~M3, the core runs at idle speed, and the afterburner feds air mainly from large bypass duct. This solved overheating problem in R-15 turbojet of MIG25.
AIUI this was suggested in the US for their SST programme in the late 60's/early 70's under the name "fan burning." The issue remains, the higher the airflow speed you're looking to decellerate from the hotter that flow will be. Once you get to M5 that's still not enough and you're probably looking at some kind of liquid injection, or you go with the US response of a SCramjet. 
Turbofans comparable to naked J58 could also be fitted with J58 styled nacelle.
Air flow total temperature after deceleration is yet acceptable for titanium parts at M4, this differs form M5+.
SST does not need to cross M5 and become hypersonic.

Shuttles and maneuverable ICBM RVs are technically strictly hypersonic. But people does not talk this way. Hypersonic vehicles (even rocket boosted gliders now) are boasted by their advocates as new technology, as if Shuttle and ICBM never existed.

X-51 based missile concepts have been abandoned. Fuel economy of X-51 is not very good, presumably NOTHING have satisfactory fuel economy at M5 for the size of a missile.

For aircraft, M4 turboramjet is practical enough when M6 is appreciable (e.g. SST). If M4 can't escape SAM interception, M6 is also dangerous.
« Last Edit: 04/13/2018 07:44 AM by Katana »

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #150 on: 04/13/2018 07:12 PM »
Turbofans comparable to naked J58 could also be fitted with J58 styled nacelle.
Air flow total temperature after deceleration is yet acceptable for titanium parts at M4, this differs form M5+.
SST does not need to cross M5 and become hypersonic.
True. But WRT to the thread title it's vehicles at or over M5.
Quote from: Katana
Shuttles and maneuverable ICBM RVs are technically strictly hypersonic. But people does not talk this way. Hypersonic vehicles (even rocket boosted gliders now) are boasted by their advocates as new technology, as if Shuttle and ICBM never existed.
Shuttle used aerodynamic lift down to the ground, as did Buran, as does X37b. As for Boost/glide concepts in the US they date back to the 1950's Bell Aerospace "BOMI" ideas.  Anyone thinking of these as "new" has a very short memory. I'd always recommend TA Heppenheimers "Surviving the Heat Barrier" for a good history of US hypersonics work.
Quote from: Katana
X-51 based missile concepts have been abandoned. Fuel economy of X-51 is not very good, presumably NOTHING have satisfactory fuel economy at M5 for the size of a missile.
And yet the US persist with yet another SCramjet project every few years.  :(
Quote from: Katana
For aircraft, M4 turboramjet is practical enough when M6 is appreciable (e.g. SST). If M4 can't escape SAM interception, M6 is also dangerous.
I'd agree SST <> hypersonic, but again the thread title is general hypersonic flight topics.
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Offline Katana

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #151 on: 04/13/2018 09:27 PM »
To be hypersonic for this thread
To be civil for this forum
To be technically viable
To be economically appreciable

Which ongoing project could satisfy all these constraints?

BFS only?

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #152 on: 04/14/2018 07:40 AM »
To be hypersonic for this thread
To be civil for this forum
To be technically viable
To be economically appreciable

Which ongoing project could satisfy all these constraints?

BFS only?
Actually the criterion is basically "Stuff that's not SABRESkylon that goes faster than M5."
Outside pretty much everything else.
But note the discussion on military uses of this technology are a site rule, not linked to this thread.
That said I didn't note any pruning when the question of WMD delivery by Skylon came up.
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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #153 on: 04/15/2018 08:27 AM »
It’s a lot easier to travel at very high speeds if you go above the atmosphere and people have been doing it this way for more than half a century. I get that there’s a sort of engineering challenge that drives R&D into hypersonic flight in the atmosphere, but is there any serious purpose for it beyond what would follow from cheap orbital launch like BFR? It seems a bit like the teams trying to set new land speed records. It’s a cool challenge, it might produce some interesting spinoffs, there might be some niche military applications, but it’s not real important.

There have been a series of Russian announcements about new weapons that seem kind of retro and silly. At best they’re produced out of a grossly exaggerated concern about the effectiveness of Star Wars anti missile systems. Claiming your missiles can hit targets “anywhere in the world” seems oblivious to the fact their missiles could do that in 1960. Saying they’re hypersonic is the same thing. They were hypersonic 50 years ago.

Am I misunderstanding something?

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #154 on: 04/15/2018 09:25 AM »
Ballistic trajectories are predictable. The point of hypersonics is not only the speed, it is the maneuvrability. It makes them very hard to target.

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #155 on: 04/15/2018 09:34 AM »
It’s a lot easier to travel at very high speeds if you go above the atmosphere and people have been doing it this way for more than half a century. I get that there’s a sort of engineering challenge that drives R&D into hypersonic flight in the atmosphere, but is there any serious purpose for it beyond what would follow from cheap orbital launch like BFR? It seems a bit like the teams trying to set new land speed records. It’s a cool challenge, it might produce some interesting spinoffs, there might be some niche military applications, but it’s not real important.

There have been a series of Russian announcements about new weapons that seem kind of retro and silly. At best they’re produced out of a grossly exaggerated concern about the effectiveness of Star Wars anti missile systems. Claiming your missiles can hit targets “anywhere in the world” seems oblivious to the fact their missiles could do that in 1960. Saying they’re hypersonic is the same thing. They were hypersonic 50 years ago.

Am I misunderstanding something?
Yes and no.

Ballistic missiles liken the Pershin II could do this back in the 80's but the actual issue is Isp.

A solid rocket ICBM is about 250-260secs. A liquid fuel one (like the kind the Russians still operate) around 330 (with T/W ratio of 100+:1) secs and a LOX/LH2 around 380secs at launch, 450secs in vacuum (with a T/W ratio of maybe 60:1 at launch).

But a bad air breather hits 2000secs (like a SCramjet, with a T/W ratio of maybe 2:1) and a good one can hit 3000secs (with a T/W ratio of 14:1).

That gives you a vehicle that can be a lot more structure than fuel (IE a bigger warhead), or just a lot smaller to begin with.  The siren dream of SCramjets is the (supposed) belief they can deliver thrust almost to orbit velocity.

The real down side of ballistic missiles is they look exactly like an ICBM attack on radar. The closer to the launch site  you get the higher that trajectory has to go up to come down again (at least AFAIK for solid fueled types).

OTOH if you could get into an aircraft an a normal airport and it could fly you to your destination at 5x faster than a "normal" aircraft without the drama of going to an offshore launch platform, multiple g's of acceleration and a stage separation/engine ignition even that must work every time which would you prefer?

BTW during its 27 years of passenger service various air forces ran chase exercises with Concorde. IIRC only one type caught it, because none could sustain M2 long enough, while Concorde operated at M2 without after burner (or carrying the weight of swing wings, a common design strategy at the time).
« Last Edit: 04/15/2018 09:35 AM by john smith 19 »
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C Apply So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline Star One

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« Reply #156 on: 04/19/2018 04:55 PM »
USAF awards Lockheed Martin $928 million contract for hypersonic cruise missile

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The indefinite-delivery and indefinite quantity award worth up to $928 million suggests the USAF is ready to move past several decades of development and demonstrations of weapons that can cruise for long distances at speeds exceeding Mach 5.

The award came out of a competitive acquisition process in which three offers where received, according to an award notice. The USAF did not name the other bidders, though when the competition was announced in July 2017 the service named Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman and Raytheon Missile Systems as the only acceptable bidders due to timeframe constraints.

The USAF is accelerating its efforts to develop hypersonic weapons and aircraft in light of advances and investments made in hypersonic technology by China and Russia.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/usaf-awards-lockheed-martin-928-million-contract-fo-447826/

More detail here.

Quote
Both are part of a program to develop advanced prototypes that can later be fielded on U.S. jets.

“The Air Force is using prototyping to explore the art of the possible and to advance these technologies to a capability as quickly as possible,” Air Force spokeswoman Ann Stefanek said.

Lockheed Martin executives have emphasized hypersonic aircraft and weaponry as an area of intense interest.

“We are committed to the development of state-of-the-art hypersonic technologies, and we are excited to get to work on the Hypersonic Conventional Strike Weapon program,” Jon Snyder, Lockheed Martin’s vice president for Air Force Strategic Programs, said in an emailed statement.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2018/04/18/air-force-awards-massive-hypersonic-weapon-contract-to-lockheed-martin/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.f0c783820101
« Last Edit: 04/19/2018 05:38 PM by Star One »

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« Reply #157 on: 04/23/2018 06:48 AM »
Argonne National Lab High-energy X-ray Facility’s Hypersonic Test Role

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Despite major strides in air-breathing hypersonic scramjet technology, developers of high-speed propulsion systems for future weapons, reconnaissance vehicles and space access still lack crucial knowledge about the fundamental flow physics and combustion chemistry at the engine’s heart. Although a better understanding of key aerothermodynamics inside scramjets has been gained through computational fluid dynamics modeling and other diagnostic methods, as well as trial and error in ...

http://m.aviationweek.com/aviation-week-space-technology/argonne-national-lab-high-energy-x-ray-facility-s-hypersonic-test-rol

Air Force puts nearly $1B behind new long-range, hypersonic weapon; taps Lockheed to lead


Quote
The Air Force has established a nearly $1 billion program to prototype a long-range, air-launched, hypersonic strike weapon and Lockheed Martin has elbowed away two other competitors to win the project, the service has revealed.

Lockheed, which beat a Raytheon-Boeing team and another competitor for the Hypersonic Conventional Strike Weapon prototyping effort, now assumes a dominant role in leading two parallel Air Force projects that aim to develop a long-range, conventional prompt strike capability.

Spokesman for two other contractors the Air Force invited to compete in the HCSW program -- Northrop Grumman and Orbital ATK -- both declined to confirm whether their companies had submitted a bid or comment in any way on the contract award. Northrop is slated to acquire Orbital ATK this year. Debroah VanNierop, a Boeing spokeswoman, confirmed to Inside Defense the company was a subcontractor on a proposal led by Raytheon.

On April 18, the Air Force announced Huntsville, AL-based Lockheed Martin Space to be the “successful offeror” of a contract potentially worth $928 million to design, develop, and perform engineering, systems integration, test, logistics, planning and aircraft integration support of all elements of a hypersonic, conventional, air-launched, stand-off weapon.

The objective of the HCSW program, informally called “Hacksaw,” is to develop long-range hypersonic missile prototypes that can be integrated on the service's current bomber and fighter aircraft fleets and be supported in all operations, mission-planning and sustainment efforts, according to the Air Force.

“This effort is one of two hypersonic weapon prototyping efforts being pursued by the Air Force to accelerate hypersonics research and development,” said Ann Stefanek, an Air Force spokeswoman. “The Air Force is using prototyping to explore the art-of-the-possible and to advance these technologies to a capability as quickly as possible.”

The second Air Force prototyping project is the Air-Launched Rapid Response Weapon (ARRW), with support from the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, to also develop a long-range, prompt strike capability.

Stefanek declined to offer further detail about the programs, specifically whether the core technology of the projects was based around an air-breathing, hypersonic system or a hypersonic boost-glide system.

The full scope of the Hacksaw program -- which is slated to potentially fund work through engineering and manufacturing development -- was not previously known. The project was hatched in FY-18 as part of a “Lifecycle Prototyping” effort that sought $153 million to fund numerous technologies; it is not clear how much of that is allocated to Hacksaw. The Air Force's FY-19 budget request establishes a dedicated Hacksaw budget line, seeking $89.3 million. Future funding for the hypersonic conventional strike program was not previously disclosed.

By comparison, the ARRW -- which also was broken out from the Lifecycle Prototyping project for the first time in the FY-19 budget -- is seeking $169 million, a potentially bigger program.

The Air Force, according to the FY-19 budget request, plans to "leverage the synergistic efforts" of DARPA's existing contract with Lockheed Martin for a Tactical Boost Glide demonstration to further the ARRW program. It appears the Air Force's new ARRW project will overlap with the TBG program -- a joint DARPA-Air Force initiative to develop and demonstrate technologies to enable future air-launched, tactical-range hypersonic boost glide systems.

The scale of the Hacksaw project is comparable to the Pentagon's marquee effort over the last decade to develop technologies for a long-range hypersonic strike weapon as part of the Conventional Prompt Strike program, run by the Office of the Secretary of Defense. The Defense Department has spent $1.2 billion over the last 10 years to develop a boost-glide weapon and earlier this year disclosed plans to put the Navy in charge of the project beginning in FY-20, with the goal of outfitting submarines with a hypersonic strike weapon.

Last summer, the Air Force Life Cycle Management Center -- after asking industry to register interest in supporting Hacksaw requirements -- determined five companies were able to meet the service's needs: Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, Orbital ATK and Raytheon.

In the end, the Air Force received a total of three offers from industry, according to the announcement.

The Hacksaw program is being financed with funds from its advanced component development and prototyping accounts and is part of a larger Technology Transition Program to “demonstrate, prototype, and experiment with technologies and concepts to enable or accelerate their transition to acquisition programs and/or operational use,” according to the Air Force budget.

“The Technology Transition Program addresses the gap between initial technology or concept development and demonstration, and successful acquisition and operational capability implementation,” according to the Air Force's FY-19 budget request.

The Hypersonic Conventional Strike Weapon project integrates Air Force-enabled “system technologies into a prototype that will demonstrate the viability of this concept to be fielded as a long-range prompt strike capability,” according to the service's FY-19 budget request. “HCSW will design, develop, manufacture, and test, a number of prototype vehicles to inform decisions concerning HCSW acquisition and production,” the budget states.
« Last Edit: 04/23/2018 06:55 AM by Star One »

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #158 on: 04/25/2018 08:09 PM »
Quote
The Pentagon wants its new AI center up and running in six months, but is taking a different track on directed energy and hypersonics, Deputy Defense Secretary Shanahan says.

Quote
While it’s clear the Pentagon leadership thinks they have a winner in the nascent JAIC, they’re doing things differently when it comes to hypersonics and directed energy weapons. In establishing new directed energy programs, “it may not be that there’s a center,” Shanahan said. “What we may do is parse things out until someone’s doing power supply, somebody’s doing beam control. It’s different aspects of the technology that we’ll probably parse out, either to a service or one of the research labs.”

Griffin has repeatedly said that developing new hypersonic capabilities is his top priority, and Shanahan confirmed Tuesday that Griffin has already delivered an interim report on his plans for ten key technology areas for the Pentagon, with a final report due on his desk in July.

https://breakingdefense.com/2018/04/pentagon-run-ai-center-coming-hypersonics-work-in-progress/

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #159 on: 04/28/2018 09:39 AM »
Now I wonder what project or projects this is going to concern.

Quote
We can expect an important announcement in a few weeks that “a significant acceleration is doable” of the Air Force’s hypersonic efforts. Roper said he’d completed a review of all the service’s work on hypersonic, one of the Pentagon’s top priorities

https://breakingdefense.com/2018/04/big-hypersonic-news-coming-faster-progress-likely-roper/

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #160 on: 05/09/2018 08:23 PM »
Congress eyes conventional hypersonic triad, seeks details of marquee DOD hypersonic project


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Draft legislation would require Pentagon brass to validate a requirement for a potential conventional hypersonic strike triad -- setting the stage for a ground-, sea-, and air-launched ultra-fast boost-glide weapon -- along with cost estimates for accelerating initial operational capability of each notional leg of this fledgling new class of weapon.

The chairman's mark of the House Armed Services Committee's version of the fiscal year 2019 defense authorization bill includes provisions that aim to tighten congressional oversight of the Conventional Prompt Strike program, the U.S. military's marquee effort to develop an intermediate-range hypersonic strike capability.

The draft legislation, made public May 7, calls for the defense secretary to provide Congress by Nov. 30 "a validated requirement for ground-, sea-, or air-launched (or a combination thereof) conventional prompt global strike hypersonic capabilities."

The Pentagon does not have a formal acquisition program of record for a hypersonic strike capability. The Defense Department is exploring potential boost-glide hypersonic technologies as part of a research and development effort overseen by the Office of the Secretary of Defense, a project that has spent nearly $1 billion to date, with plans to allocate nearly $2 billion over the next five years.

In accordance with congressional guidance in the FY-16 National Defense Authorization Act, DOD plans a materiel development decision for a Conventional Prompt Strike capability in FY-20, the initial gateway to a formal acquisition effort. In preparation, the Pentagon earlier this year revealed plans to give the Navy responsibility to manage development of the Conventional Strike Program beginning in FY-19.

At congressional direction in the FY-18 NDAA, Pentagon leaders are drafting a "plan to reach an early operational capability for the conventional prompt strike weapon system by not later than September 30, 2022." The report, due in June, is to be prepared by the Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman in consultation with the heads of U.S. European, Pacific and Strategic commands, and will outline "the required level of resources that is consistent with the level of priority associated to the capability gap."

The high-level Pentagon panel responsible for endorsing the need for a new weapon system program -- the Joint Requirements Oversight Council -- has examined the issue of hypersonic strike at least twice in the last five years. In September 2016, the panel re-validated the requirement for Conventional Prompt Strike as part of a larger "family of systems," according to the Joint Staff.

And in 2013, the JROC validated the Conventional Prompt Strike -- which previously aspired to have a "global" reach -- focus on demonstrating the feasibility of a hypersonic, boost-glide weapon for a potential intermediate-range strike system that could be deployed independent of service or service platform.

In addition, the draft legislation unveiled by the House this week would direct the Pentagon's acquisition executive to deliver a report by Jan. 31, 2019 on a plan to "deliver a conventional prompt global strike weapon system" by the 2022 target date. That report, according to the draft legislation, is to include "options with cost estimates for accelerating the initial capability for such a system" and an outline of the policy issues required by Pentagon leaders in order to "employ hypersonic offense capabilities from each potential launch platform of such system."

The proposed bill also seeks an explanation from DOD of the "assessed level of ambiguity and misinterpretation risk relating to the conventional prompt global strike weapon system," including any potential confusion by adversaries as to whether the hypersonic strike weapon could be carrying a nuclear warhead. In addition, the report is to outline potential risks related to Conventional Prompt Strike and "platform ambiguity" and "perceptions of the survivability of strategic nuclear forces."

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #161 on: 05/10/2018 10:36 PM »
Congress eyes conventional hypersonic triad, seeks details of marquee DOD hypersonic project


Quote
The proposed bill also seeks an explanation from DOD of the "assessed level of ambiguity and misinterpretation risk relating to the conventional prompt global strike weapon system," including any potential confusion by adversaries as to whether the hypersonic strike weapon could be carrying a nuclear warhead. In addition, the report is to outline potential risks related to Conventional Prompt Strike and "platform ambiguity" and "perceptions of the survivability of strategic nuclear forces."
Which obviously would be very high for something that looks anything like an ICBM, but rather less so with a more horizontal trajectory.

Since most of the US concepts are based around a SCramjet they will be highly risky and eyewateringly expensive.

Boost glide is the one that looks simplest to actually implement by sticking something winged on a big rocket, but we're back to how much it resembles an ICBM, and of course how small would it have to be before an adversary would rule out that it could be fitted with a nuclear warhead. The answer to which is "very small indeed," given the US has put nuclear warheads on 155 artillery shells.
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C Apply So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

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« Reply #162 on: 05/12/2018 07:52 AM »
National Hypersonics Initiative

Quote
The committee is aware of a National Hypersonics Initiative under
development by the Under Secretary of Defense for Research and Engineering, in
conjunction with the military services, defense labs, and the Defense Advanced
Research Projects Agency. The committee recognizes the growing amount of
resources and emphasis placed by the Department of Defense on the research and
development of hypersonic vehicle technology. The committee supports the
development of a National Hypersonics Initiative, and believes it is prudent and consistent with the roles and responsibilities granted to the Department’s Joint Hypersonics Transition Office as authorized in the National Defense Authorization
Act of 2018 (Public Law 115-91).
Therefore, the committee directs the Under Secretary of Defense for
Research and Engineering to provide a briefing to the House Committee on Armed
Services not later than September 15, 2018, on the status of the National
Hypersonics Initiative

OpFires
PROGRAM OBJECTIVE AND DESCRIPTION:


Quote
The objective of the OpFires program is to develop and demonstrate a novel groundlaunched
system enabling advanced weapons to penetrate modern enemy air defenses
and rapidly and precisely engage critical time sensitive targets. DARPA seeks to develop
an advanced booster capable of delivering a variety of payloads at a variety of ranges.
OpFires will focus on the development of innovative propulsion to maximize the
operational range envelope of the system and adapt to a variety of potential payloads.
The program plans to conduct a series of subsystem tests designed to evaluate
component design and system compatibility, and assess the value of innovative
propulsion system concepts. It is planned to culminate in an integrated end-to-end flight
test campaign following integration with a compatible mobile ground launch platform.
The OpFires program includes two separate and successive tasks, the Propulsion System
task and the Weapon System Integration task. Each task will have a separate BAA. This
Proposers Day and associated BAA will encompass the Propulsion System task. The
Propulsion System task will focus on developing and demonstrating innovative
propulsion concepts for flexible-range boosters and will be conducted in two phases.
Phase 1 will include propulsion system preliminary design and proof of concept testing
to demonstrate key elements of the propulsion system design. Phase 2 is anticipated to
mature designs to critical design level and conduct hot/static fires of at least two
representative test articles.
A BAA for the Weapon System Integration task is planned for release in FY 2019.
« Last Edit: 05/12/2018 12:49 PM by Star One »

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« Reply #163 on: Today at 04:49 PM »
https://twitter.com/inbarspace/status/998288620330070016?s=20

Quote
First display of "Lingyun” hypersonic chinese missile. Interesting platform  - soon to be developed into a near space weapon system?

More here.

“Lingyun 1,a hypersonic aircraft that can travel at more than five times the speed of sound, or 6,100 kilometer per hour, made its public debut at the museum on Saturday. It was developed by the College of Aerospace Science and Technology at the National University of Defense Technology.

The craft has a Chinese-designed supersonic combustion ramjet engine, also known as scramjet, the exhibition panel relates. The missile-shaped Lingyun made its maiden flight in 2015, making it the second low-cost, multipurpose hypersonic vehicle known to the public - the other is the HIFiRE vehicle jointly developed by the United States and Australia."

source: Zhang Zhihao, "Spotlight focused on science, tech frontiers", China Daily, May 21, 2018
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201805/21/WS5b0216afa3103f6866ee982d.html
« Last Edit: Today at 04:57 PM by Star One »

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