Author Topic: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities  (Read 127254 times)

Online meekGee

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #40 on: 01/09/2015 09:02 PM »
Here's another interpretation.

The four pads are the eventual landing pads, when confidence in landing is improved.  They are like runways.
The center pad, with the large soil pad around it, is experimental. Think of it like a Dryden dry lake runway. You can miss and still walk away.

Once the large pad demonstrates that they can hit the bulls eye with high enough confidence, then the new pads will start getting used.

Even as I'm writing this I don't like it, since SpaceX doesn't tend to build ahead so much.  They'd just have built the center pad, and left the other pads on paper.

So, still stumped. 

I don't see the contingency as wind-induced.  I mean, if wind can kick them to another pad, then that landing will be "iffy", which means those pads need a compressed soil buffer around them too, no?

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Offline te_atl

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #41 on: 01/09/2015 09:17 PM »
Who says they won't be left on paper?   Isn't that jpg that shows the actual pads a mockup created by one of the readers here?   Have they actually poured concrete yet?

Online meekGee

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #42 on: 01/09/2015 09:39 PM »
Who says they won't be left on paper?   Isn't that jpg that shows the actual pads a mockup created by one of the readers here?   Have they actually poured concrete yet?

ok, if it happens that way, then we have the answer, but why go through the whole rigmarole of calling them "contingency"?  Just call them "future use"?
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Online cscott

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #43 on: 01/09/2015 10:39 PM »
SpaceX may not *build* ahead, but they certainly *plan* ahead.

Offline rpapo

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #44 on: 01/09/2015 11:11 PM »
And there is nothing that says they are going to build all that stuff at once.
An Apollo fanboy . . . fifty years ago.

Online meekGee

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #45 on: 01/09/2015 11:22 PM »
Hey, if indeed it turns out that the center pad is only a training pad and this is a 5-pad landing facility, I'll be very happy.  That's what I proposed above.  I was just pointing out some reasons why it might not be a sure thing...
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Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #46 on: 01/10/2015 02:55 AM »
Here are some questions.


What is the horizontal separation need between multiple cores coming in for landing? The center landing pad might not be usable with landing multiple cores from horizontal separation requirement.

Can the launch complexes adjacent to LC13 be available as possible future landing facilities?


Offline llanitedave

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #47 on: 01/10/2015 03:27 AM »
There will not be multiple cores coming in to this facility, per the application referenced at the top of the thread.
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Online meekGee

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #48 on: 01/10/2015 03:41 AM »
There will not be multiple cores coming in to this facility, per the application referenced at the top of the thread.
Unless a new one is filed later on, right?

I mean, somewhere in the cape, there is hiding another landing spot.

This is like where's waldo.
« Last Edit: 01/10/2015 03:47 AM by meekGee »
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Offline te_atl

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #49 on: 01/11/2015 09:08 PM »
Who says they won't be left on paper?   Isn't that jpg that shows the actual pads a mockup created by one of the readers here?   Have they actually poured concrete yet?

ok, if it happens that way, then we have the answer, but why go through the whole rigmarole of calling them "contingency"?  Just call them "future use"?

Because on paper that's what they are.  Abort targets.   They could probably prove a landing error of probability prior to actual demonstration.  Placing contingency pads in abort zones allows them to increase the landing zone radius and increase probability of landing on a target in a off-nominal approach.   I don't see these "pads" as anything more then giving the AF (as stewards of Patrick) and FAA a higher level of confidence they could land at the target since at the time they didn't have actual accuracy data to show.   I would think this weekends attempt since it was "close but no cigar" would just make FAA and AF happier with  multiple abort targets.   

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #50 on: 01/11/2015 09:21 PM »
   I don't see these "pads" as anything more then giving the AF (as stewards of Patrick) and FAA a higher level of confidence they could land at the target since at the time they didn't have actual accuracy data to show.   I would think this weekends attempt since it was "close but no cigar" would just make FAA and AF happier with  multiple abort targets.   

Quite the opposite.  This weekend shows why the contingency pads are needed.

Offline Barrie

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #51 on: 01/11/2015 09:23 PM »

What is the horizontal separation need between multiple cores coming in for landing?


My guess is they have no idea, which is why the requirement is excluded from this plan.  And if they had 4 contingency barges around the ASDS yesterday, we just might have an intact stage coming home today  :D

Offline Semmel

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #52 on: 01/11/2015 09:26 PM »
Quite the opposite.  This weekend shows why the contingency pads are needed.

I see it exactly in the same way. Without more knowledge about the orientation and velocity vector of the first stage, it looks like the first stage could have landed but didn't hit the target right. Maybe it was also in a stable position but we will not know that until SpaceX publishes some telemetry. Too bad the not_a_barge drone ship doesn't have contingency pads.

Offline sugmullun

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #53 on: 01/11/2015 10:32 PM »
   I don't see these "pads" as anything more then giving the AF (as stewards of Patrick) and FAA a higher level of confidence they could land at the target since at the time they didn't have actual accuracy data to show.   I would think this weekends attempt since it was "close but no cigar" would just make FAA and AF happier with  multiple abort targets.   

Quite the opposite.  This weekend shows why the contingency pads are needed.

Four of them? I have a problem seeing that. The pads will be able to take much more abuse than the barge which wasn't quite totaled and by the time SpaceX wants to use the pads I think those almost empty cores will be pretty reliable... and accurate.
« Last Edit: 01/11/2015 10:44 PM by sugmullun »

Online meekGee

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #54 on: 01/11/2015 10:40 PM »
This week's landing attempt simply proves what we've already know - that unpredictable shit can happen.

Tailoring a solution to the exact same fault is silly, because this particular fault is less likely to recur than some other random problem.

But there's already a catch-all solution to all such problems, which is to progressively and actively walk the IIP from offshore and onto the pad, abort if you lose control, and have a margin around the pad.

It was never to try to land a sick stage at a different pad, and this week's crash does not indicate that a new plan is needed.

We still have two large unknowns, in my opinion:

- What does "contingency pad" even mean (and why are they smaller, have no buffer zones, and are unevenly spaced, etc. etc.)
- Where does the second side booster land.
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Offline dglow

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #55 on: 01/12/2015 04:08 AM »
- What does "contingency pad" even mean (and why are they smaller, have no buffer zones, and are unevenly spaced, etc. etc.)

The contingency pads look the same size as the circle on the center pad. The center pad is really the exception, and I like your theory as to why.

Quote
- Where does the second side booster land.

I think you called it upthread: it will also land at LC-13 once RTLS is proven and the requisite authorities consent.

Offline deruch

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #56 on: 01/12/2015 04:26 AM »
- What does "contingency pad" even mean (and why are they smaller, have no buffer zones, and are unevenly spaced, etc. etc.)

The contingency pads look the same size as the circle on the center pad. The center pad is really the exception, and I like your theory as to why.

Quote
- Where does the second side booster land.

I think you called it upthread: it will also land at LC-13 once RTLS is proven and the requisite authorities consent.

The center pad is 200ft diameter.  The contingency pads are all 150ft diameter.  per the Environmental Assessment.
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Online meekGee

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #57 on: 01/12/2015 04:39 AM »
- What does "contingency pad" even mean (and why are they smaller, have no buffer zones, and are unevenly spaced, etc. etc.)

The contingency pads look the same size as the circle on the center pad. The center pad is really the exception, and I like your theory as to why.

Quote
- Where does the second side booster land.

I think you called it upthread: it will also land at LC-13 once RTLS is proven and the requisite authorities consent.

The center pad is 200ft diameter.  The contingency pads are all 150ft diameter.  per the Environmental Assessment.
Which agrees with the idea that the center pad is a training pad, and this will become a 5 pad landing facility.

What's strange about this interpretation is the convoluted use of the "contingency" descriptor.

So I think we're still missing something. What's the contingency? Just in case SpaceX is successful?
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Offline dglow

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #58 on: 01/12/2015 04:40 AM »
The center pad is 200ft diameter.  The contingency pads are all 150ft diameter.  per the Environmental Assessment.

The center pad is a square, 200 ft. on each side.

What's strange about this interpretation is the convoluted use of the "contingency" descriptor.

So I think we're still missing something. What's the contingency? Just in case SpaceX is successful?

The contingency is 'how we justify the need for all these little pads when we're claiming only one core will land here'.  ;)
« Last Edit: 01/12/2015 04:43 AM by dglow »

Offline dglow

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Re: SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
« Reply #59 on: 01/12/2015 04:52 AM »
Aha! I think I see what's missing. How about...

Center pad is the 'proving pad' for F9 booster landings
After n successful bullseyes, boosters transition to the adjacent pads
Center pad becomes the landing site for returning Dragons

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